Does better barter secret stash boost break the game?

[Slingblade2040]

Title says it all. We can go days on end with no schematics for augers but better barter can have that fixed by day 5 where it will give us a huge chance to just buy one along with alot of high tier weapons which end up breaking the progression of the game along with the rest of the intellect perk tree. 

 

So this leads to another question. Will alpha 21 have another change around of the perk system? It's obvious we need another reworking of the perks.

 

 

 

 

[BarryTGash]

What level of better barter? Max is a huge point investment, thereby taking away from other areas of specialisation - it seems like an offset; you get access to things you'd normally have to put points in to and/or find schematics for in exchange for... putting points in to it. There's still no guarantee the stash will contain what you want though.

 

I think it caters to the players who trade and provides an alternative path for progression. Could it be tweaked? Yes. Should it work the same in multiplayer as it does in singleplayer? Probably not - and that's probably where the issue lies.

[ElDudorino]

44 minutes ago, BarryTGash said:

What level of better barter? Max is a huge point investment, thereby taking away from other areas of specialisation - it seems like an offset; you get access to things you'd normally have to put points in to and/or find schematics for in exchange for... putting points in to it.

Kinda, except at max barter you can quickly buy everything you'll ever want a couple weeks into the game and then just chug a Fergit'n Elixir that cost you almost nothing and you get back all those points to re-spec into actual gameplay skills. Probably most players won't do it this way but the game sets it up where that is the clear 'optimal' progression.

 

I recently played a game where I rushed barter and daring adventurer and it was unbelievably overpowered. It's just so much stronger than doing anything else with your points. But honestly, here's my only real problem with Better Barter: It's the only way to get solar cells and solar banks. I think that non-traders should have SOME option to get them, even if only as a super-rare end crate find.

[BarryTGash]

2 hours ago, ElDudorino said:

Fergit'n Elixir

 

I forget about that - I've never used one. Perhaps should just get rid it instead

 

Perhaps moving the solar panel trader unlock to advanced engineering: "unlocks chance for solar panels to appear at the trader". Or better yet, provide a chance for a schematic and have a harvestable resource only from solar panels in POIs required to craft them.

 

I think if you focus on one thing it can provide unproportionate results, especially when rushing it. What would you propose? Perhaps tying what actually appears in the stash to game or loot stage? That way, if one is invested in it, they'll still get the benefit, just not so early.

[Ornias]

2 hours ago, ElDudorino said:

Kinda, except at max barter you can quickly buy everything you'll ever want a couple weeks into the game and then just chug a Fergit'n Elixir that cost you almost nothing and you get back all those points to re-spec into actual gameplay skills. Probably most players won't do it this way but the game sets it up where that is the clear 'optimal' progression.

 

I recently played a game where I rushed barter and daring adventurer and it was unbelievably overpowered. It's just so much stronger than doing anything else with your points. But honestly, here's my only real problem with Better Barter: It's the only way to get solar cells and solar banks. I think that non-traders should have SOME option to get them, even if only as a super-rare end crate find.

 

I wish wrenching solar banks on POI's would give a chance to salvage cells and solar banks at higher game stages. 

[ElDudorino]

31 minutes ago, BarryTGash said:

What would you propose? Perhaps tying what actually appears in the stash to game or loot stage? That way, if one is invested in it, they'll still get the benefit, just not so early.

That's exactly how I think it should work. Currently, you can reach T4 quests in your first week and get Q6 steel weapons and tools as your rewards. With Better Barter you can also buy steel weapons and tools a few days into the game. Dealing with traders makes loot almost obsolete, except as a source of revenue.

 

I just played a game where I never spoke to a trader other than to get my free 4 points, and I found I was progressing so much more slowly, rare loot was miraculous, and I actually crafted a good chunk of my gear because I couldn't just get a free Q6 version as a quest reward. Maybe not everyone agrees but it felt to me like the pace the game is meant to be played at. Quests and Better Barter secret stashes just break progression so much.

[Rotor]

1 hour ago, ElDudorino said:

That's exactly how I think it should work. Currently, you can reach T4 quests in your first week and get Q6 steel weapons and tools as your rewards. With Better Barter you can also buy steel weapons and tools a few days into the game. Dealing with traders makes loot almost obsolete, except as a source of revenue.

 

I just played a game where I never spoke to a trader other than to get my free 4 points, and I found I was progressing so much more slowly, rare loot was miraculous, and I actually crafted a good chunk of my gear because I couldn't just get a free Q6 version as a quest reward. Maybe not everyone agrees but it felt to me like the pace the game is meant to be played at. Quests and Better Barter secret stashes just break progression so much.

 

I have yet to do a single quest even on a play through to day 60ish.  Progress is slow, but I am okay with that.  700 days to the finish no need to rush.

[Slingblade2040]

2 hours ago, BarryTGash said:

What would you propose? Perhaps tying what actually appears in the stash to game or loot stage? That way, if one is invested in it, they'll still get the benefit, just not so early.

 

For me it would be to do away with secret stash all together. Just keep the traders to selling food, medical supplies, ammo, mods and some resources. For things like guns,tools, armor and work stations make them available from the traders quests in the same way we get a bike after a certain amount of tier 3,4 or 5 quests but definitely make it random and only 1 work station appearing.  The quality of the gun, armor or tool can be tied into what tier of quest you did to encourage people to do higher tier quests more often.  Quality 6 stuff should be loot only and only lootable in tier 5 locations to make them more appealing and worthwhile. 

 

For that to work properly they would have to give daring adventurer some kind of nerf to where it only gives you more exp and dukes, maybe like at its final stage you would get a 100% boost to dukes and exp from quests.

[Sjustus548]

With Better Bartering you can put 9 into Int and wear the Nerdy Glasses to get 10/10 then get 5/5 in Better Bartering to get the full Secret Stash.  So with the glasses on you will see the full stash but if you take them off it will show the step down stash.  Easy way to get even more stuff from the traders.

[RipClaw]

19 hours ago, Slingblade2040 said:

Title says it all. We can go days on end with no schematics for augers but better barter can have that fixed by day 5 where it will give us a huge chance to just buy one along with alot of high tier weapons which end up breaking the progression of the game along with the rest of the intellect perk tree. 

I would say "no." You don't even need to put points in Better Barter to get the schematics early on. Within the first two weeks I found the Auger schematic in a bookstore, and the schematic for the crucible in a secret stash. But it took more than 70 days to find the schematics for the bellows and the anvil. In the next game it might be the other way around.

 

Edited February 20, 2022 by RipClaw (see edit history)

[Gr.o.m.]

12 hours ago, Slingblade2040 said:

 

For me it would be to do away with secret stash all together. Just keep the traders to selling food, medical supplies, ammo, mods and some resources. For things like guns,tools, armor and work stations make them available from the traders quests in the same way we get a bike after a certain amount of tier 3,4 or 5 quests but definitely make it random and only 1 work station appearing.  The quality of the gun, armor or tool can be tied into what tier of quest you did to encourage people to do higher tier quests more often.  Quality 6 stuff should be loot only and only lootable in tier 5 locations to make them more appealing and worthwhile. 

 

For that to work properly they would have to give daring adventurer some kind of nerf to where it only gives you more exp and dukes, maybe like at its final stage you would get a 100% boost to dukes and exp from quests.

Absolutly againt your suggestion to force people to do the same tier 5 pois over and over again. I do theses only once or twice per alpha and only because my frinds want to play them.

[Spatch]

Nope, it doesn't break the game.  If some idiot wants to constantly swap glasses on and off for a chance at more loot, let him!  I never waste time doing this and I sure don't waste time with the stupid loot goggle switching CONSTANTLY!  How stupidly unfun is that!

 

[canadianbluebeer]

23 minutes ago, Spatch said:

Nope, it doesn't break the game.  If some idiot wants to constantly swap glasses on and off for a chance at more loot, let him!  I never waste time doing this and I sure don't waste time with the stupid loot goggle switching CONSTANTLY!  How stupidly unfun is that!

 

 

It is un-fun, but when you're trying to get a particular book/schematic... it's practical.

 

I just have 1 more book that I *need*, then I won't have to.  (then I can bulk craft 7.62 ammo. rest of the stuff, I can wait on)

 

Solar panels, yeah, only the secret stash, and the price has doubled (ouch)

I would like to see some other way to get them, as right now, ONLY the stash, and ONLY higher levels.

 

(yes, I know, I could just open creative, toss in the equiv dukes and snag'em that way)

 

[meganoth]

Solar panels? They are just vanity items like a trophy, why do they turn up on a topic about BB/SS being OP?

 

An interesting question is whether secret stash or daring adventurer has a better chance to get you important items or whether it is just the combo. DA got a veritable boost with the current quest-complete rewards but some things you can't get from there (like the cement mixer). And non-INT players can get the first perk level of DA as well which has the second-strongest boost, right after the final perk level.

 

My opinion is that the trader/quest system is OP. There is no use fixing the perks, you need to change quests rewards and the secret stash.

 

For one thing contents of secret stash should be continuous in higher levels, i.e. if you find X in the lvl 1 stash you should find it in the lvl 2 stash. Not so much because of the glasses exploit but because it naturally doubles the available stash in multiplayer when at least one INT player is part of the group.

And the secret stash needs to be smaller. You may find items there you were looking for, but it should be much less frequent.

 

 

 

[Slingblade2040]

6 hours ago, Gr.o.m. said:

Absolutly againt your suggestion to force people to do the same tier 5 pois over and over again. I do theses only once or twice per alpha and only because my frinds want to play them.

Then why even play? Hell why even do any of PoIs. You might as well turn on creative mode and spawn all the stuff in. Most survival games have some kind of progression system. The idea of oh I don't like tier 5s because they are tough and I rather do lower tiers since they are faster for end game mega loot is ridiculous and what's even more ridiculous is just going to a trader and buying end game items.

 

I can only imagine the amount of people that will complain about doing Bandit HQs or bandit outposts if they are as big or as difficult as a tier 5.

 

If people want end game style loot they should be expected to engage in end game style content not just go buy stuff from a trader or do much easier quests or PoIs for end game loot and if they don't want to do that stuff then they can just cheat it in. 

[ElDudorino]

3 hours ago, Spatch said:

Nope, it doesn't break the game.  If some idiot wants to constantly swap glasses on and off for a chance at more loot, let him!  I never waste time doing this and I sure don't waste time with the stupid loot goggle switching CONSTANTLY!  How stupidly unfun is that!

 

You don't have to swap glasses for it to be broken. It gives you stuff that's way beyond you progression-wise whether you use glasses or not.

 

2 hours ago, meganoth said:

My opinion is that the trader/quest system is OP. There is no use fixing the perks, you need to change quests rewards and the secret stash.

I don't think quests should even give items as rewards except when you clear a tier, and the tier-clearing rewards should be nerfed. No more 500 steel blocks for clearing t5; that's absurdly overpowered as a reward that you can get once per trader. Stuff like the bike for clearing T1 is a nice and suitable reward, though.

 

I would still do quests if they only gave dukes and exp, since the fact that they send you to PoIs full of loot and they also reset the loot is already good on its own. I would also make it so you can pick up multiple quests at once. Grab a few, go out and knock out a few PoIs, head back the next day and get a few batches of dukes and see what you can spend them on. I don't need to be given a Q6 steel club as a reward for clearing a T4 PoI in the bloody pine forest.

[Gr.o.m.]

19 minutes ago, Slingblade2040 said:

Then why even play? Hell why even do any of PoIs. You might as well turn on creative mode and spawn all the stuff in. Most survival games have some kind of progression system. The idea of oh I don't like tier 5s because they are tough and I rather do lower tiers since they are faster for end game mega loot is ridiculous and what's even more ridiculous is just going to a trader and buying end game items.

 

I can only imagine the amount of people that will complain about doing Bandit HQs or bandit outposts if they are as big or as difficult as a tier 5.

 

If people want end game style loot they should be expected to engage in end game style content not just go buy stuff from a trader or do much easier quests or PoIs for end game loot and if they don't want to do that stuff then they can just cheat it in. 

Sorry my bad, you intrepreted my words in a way, that I dislike T5 pois because they are difficult. In fact I whish that would be the case.  I don't like them because after 5-10times running them they are boring as heck. They are in fact more diffucult than T4 pois because if you do them allone, you have to do hope, that there is no thing like loosing your internet connection and have to do them again. T5 pois simply take too much time.

But you can mitigate that if wou do them with 2-3 friends and a lot of ammo.  😛

[Fenris]

2 hours ago, meganoth said:

Solar panels? They are just vanity items like a trophy, why do they turn up on a topic about BB/SS being OP?

Probably because the only way to get them is through high levels of Better Barter, which kind of forces you to skill up in that area if you want them. Unless I'm missing something, that is the only item you have to buy. I agree with you about them being more of a vanity item and not OP, but it is nice to set them up and never have to bother with them again even if you're swimming in fuel by the time you can buy them, so generators would work just as well.

32 minutes ago, Slingblade2040 said:

Then why even play? Hell why even do any of PoIs. You might as well turn on creative mode and spawn all the stuff in. Most survival games have some kind of progression system. The idea of oh I don't like tier 5s because they are tough and I rather do lower tiers since they are faster for end game mega loot is ridiculous and what's even more ridiculous is just going to a trader and buying end game items.

 

I can only imagine the amount of people that will complain about doing Bandit HQs or bandit outposts if they are as big or as difficult as a tier 5.

 

If people want end game style loot they should be expected to engage in end game style content not just go buy stuff from a trader or do much easier quests or PoIs for end game loot and if they don't want to do that stuff then they can just cheat it in. 

Most people I see who don't want to do tier 5 POIs usually don't complain about the difficulty, but rather the boredom. Maybe I play slow, but by the time I do tier 5's I have enough ammo and weaponry to supply an army. And personally I'm hoping the bandits are difficult, it'd be nice to face a group that can shoot back and doing something as simple as standing on the high ground wont save you from them.

[RipClaw]

3 hours ago, Slingblade2040 said:

The idea of oh I don't like tier 5s because they are tough and I rather do lower tiers since they are faster for end game mega loot is ridiculous and what's even more ridiculous is just going to a trader and buying end game items.

T5 buildings are no harder than most T4 buildings. It's just that they are so much bigger than T4 buildings that you need more time to complete the quest. The zombies that spawn in a quest POI do not depend on the level of the quest but on your gamestage. For example, I get radioactive cops even on a T1 quest.
 

Many players don't like T5 quests because they take so long. In A18, T5 quests were guaranteed to give you Q6 items. But that's not the case anymore. It's sometimes ridiculous what you get as a reward.

 

The only T5 quests I currently do are the ones with the new Crack a Book HQ because it's done fairly quickly.
 

Edited February 20, 2022 by RipClaw (see edit history)

[canadianbluebeer]

23 hours ago, meganoth said:

Solar panels? They are just vanity items like a trophy, why do they turn up on a topic about BB/SS being OP?

 

 

 

 

 

 

umm.. tsk.

 

I use them to recharge the battery banks that power the drawbridges and lights.

 

Yes, drive up a ramp, the lights come on, and the bridge comes down.  Into the base you go.

Then the outer lights go out, and the bridge goes up.

 

reverse for leaving the base.

 

Solar+Battery means it never runs out of power.  (low draw, and not used all that often)

 

For turrets and traps, generators of course, which have to be refueled.  np there.

 

Oh it's also quiet, and no heat signature.

(not that the last matters much, as 10 forges going will do the heat summoning quite well thank you!)  😛

 

[playlessNamer]

The better barter, lucky looter and adventurer combo is the most effective way to play.

But before nerfing anything around this pls rework the perksystem generally.

I really dislike how you get stuck in a tech because you have to skill int,str and agi before perks.

[ElDudorino]

I agree with that, I'm not a fan of the perk/skill system in general. I don't like having to skill into perception for literally one perk (lucky looter) while strength and agility are packed with amazing perks. Then some perks are fundamental to everything you do in the game while others are just QoL stuff. I don't know how I would retool it, though. The current system is acceptable to me as a placeholder since I don't know what system would be better.

[Slingblade2040]

21 hours ago, RipClaw said:

T5 buildings are no harder than most T4 buildings. It's just that they are so much bigger than T4 buildings that you need more time to complete the quest. The zombies that spawn in a quest POI do not depend on the level of the quest but on your gamestage. For example, I get radioactive cops even on a T1 quest.
 

Many players don't like T5 quests because they take so long. In A18, T5 quests were guaranteed to give you Q6 items. But that's not the case anymore. It's sometimes ridiculous what you get as a reward.

 

The only T5 quests I currently do are the ones with the new Crack a Book HQ because it's done fairly quickly.
 

If any players reason for not doing a tier 5 is because it takes to long then that's on them and not a valid reason.

 

That's on the same level of wanting raid quality gear to drop from normal dungeons because raids take to long. It was a horrible decision when WoW did it and it's dumb for 7dtd to have anything but the best quality gear dropping from tier 5s.

 

Right now there is no reason to go to the wasteland or to do tier 5s. The games been dumbed done enough and made so that the game gets easier and easier. Some reason has to be implemented to go into the wastelands and do tier 5s otherwise why even bother adding them or even similar sized PoIs into the game later on.

[RipClaw]

4 hours ago, Slingblade2040 said:

If any players reason for not doing a tier 5 is because it takes to long then that's on them and not a valid reason.

The complaints that the T5 quests take too long have been around since these quests were added to the game.

 

With the new Crack a Book HQ the Fun Pimps added a T5 POI in A20 that is quick to do but contains about the same number of zombies as a factory. They also added the new quest menu in A20 where you can choose the quest level. That tells me that they consider, not having the time to do T5 quests, as a valid reason.

 

4 hours ago, Slingblade2040 said:

That's on the same level of wanting raid quality gear to drop from normal dungeons because raids take to long. It was a horrible decision when WoW did it and it's dumb for 7dtd to have anything but the best quality gear dropping from tier 5s.

 

This is how it is. The WoW players got older. Things like job and family became important. That's why they no longer had the time to invest several hours in a raid. Forcing players to do these long raids would have resulted in even more players quitting the game.

 

4 hours ago, Slingblade2040 said:

Right now there is no reason to go to the wasteland or to do tier 5s. The games been dumbed done enough and made so that the game gets easier and easier. Some reason has to be implemented to go into the wastelands and do tier 5s otherwise why even bother adding them or even similar sized PoIs into the game later on.

 

The opposite is true in A20. Players go to the Wasteland as early as possible to get 250% loot bonus. 

 

And whether it's easier or harder now is hard to say from an experienced player's point of view. There are some videos on this topic that try to analyze this. I think it's harder than A19 but that's just my impression.
 

Edited February 21, 2022 by RipClaw (see edit history)

[Shi-an]

I guess better barter breaks the game in the sense that it disrupts the general flow of progression by allowing people to get end-game gear without doing end-game quests. But then you can get end-tier loot 60 levels early just by going to the wasteland, and you don't even need to do quests--just nerd-pole to the POI's last room, loot the stuff and come back when loot resets.

 

The key thing is that 7DTD is just as much a sandbox game as it is a survival game--you have freedom to play how you wish, and set your own limits/restrictions as you see fit. You have multiple options for obtaining loot, and using better barter is just one of them. Better barter is pretty much always the best one as I have discovered through numerous playthroughs, but then how do you balance it? Make items more expensive? They already did that, but then that means that if your playstyle involves NOT teching into better barter, you suffer from expensive prices, just as much as the better barter players do.

 

A possible solution would be to reduce the chances of the good items appearing in the secret stash, even with better barter.