New zombie forcefield

[doughphunghus]

20 hours ago, theFlu said:

I'm starting to think they'll have to make the AI "actually" test the paths when choosing what to travel on. Of course just running a simulated zed across everything, doesn't need to be a real zed, but it would have to test the physics engine against the player choices. Another whole feature set though and likely quite expensive.

Wondering if instead they added enough “randomness” to the zeds behavior that if the game can “detect” just a lot of blocks known for cheezing in a block or area or that zeds are falling and looping over and over… that the zeds would change and just start “surrounding and digging or destroying” and try to stop pathing to the player. Maybe not all of them, so it’s not super obvious , but enough to cause chaos. 
 

at least it might deter some large scale cheezing and force tiny cheese bases (because cheese block numbers too small in a chunk) that might actually be able to be taken down/overridden.  I doubt it can completely be stopped but it might be a neat mechanic and zed “brain” against drop/circle bases. Or even as “simple” as “possible cheese detected… gamestage increased by 100… 200… 300…” until the night is over or cheese tactic destroyed. Actually a special “cheese head” or cheese clothes wearing clown zed that’s like a super destroyer exploder (cannot defuse) that spawns when cheese detected might be fun to add so if you see them you know you’re detected , and they just run at you and blow up a lot of stuff unless you waste a lot of bullets on them before ezploding. They don’t even need to have nice skins:textures because that’s the point and it would also be kinda fun as a “challenge” to try to build some cheese base and fight them off, like after you’re done with the game

Edited February 18, 2022 by doughphunghus (see edit history)

[theFlu]

1 hour ago, doughphunghus said:

Wondering if instead they added enough “randomness” to the zeds behavior that if the game can “detect” just a lot of blocks known for cheezing in a block or area or that zeds are falling and looping over and over… that the zeds would change and just start “surrounding and digging or destroying” and try to stop pathing to the player. Maybe not all of them, so it’s not super obvious , but enough to cause chaos. 

That's pretty much the current DestroyArea AI task; which seems pretty hard to balance. If it's just based on "number of known cheese blocks", that would create a situation where "I decorated my farm with these nice wedge-fences and now my horde base is suddenly useless". Sure, they can improve cheese detection, but but .. they're already trying I don't envy the task.

 

Harsh penalties for cheesing would be funny, absolutely, but I don't think they're all that practical.

[8_Hussars]

7 hours ago, theFlu said:

Harsh penalties for cheesing would be funny, absolutely, but I don't think they're all that practical.

Considering that "cheese" is merely a personal opinion (unless you are TFPs) and a shifting target at best, its 100 percent impractical. 

Edited February 19, 2022 by 8_Hussars (see edit history)

[Laz Man]

On 2/17/2022 at 1:51 PM, POCKET951 said:

I like the idea of road marks being blocks we can build or use, and I understand why they are implemented as blocks for RWG

I guess it would take some brain storming and effort to make roadmarks  Paint brush options and purely cosmetic, becuase you would need road stamps to also generate pre painted and Idk anything about programming or world gen, but it seems tricky. 

The road paint blocks are just placeholders.  They ideally shouldn't be blocks at all.  Hopefully, we can still get something better implemented before gold.

[RipClaw]

12 hours ago, theFlu said:

Harsh penalties for cheesing would be funny, absolutely, but I don't think they're all that practical.

What is cheese ? How do you know that you are not cheesing ?

 

Cheese is often just a word to say "you don't play like me" or "you don't put as much effort into your game as I do".

 

Someone who puts a lot of resources into base building and also needs a lot of resources to keep the base up and running could say that someone is cheesing that picks a POI, makes a few holes in the roof and shoots down at the zombies. From the perspective of a base builder it is pretty cheap to use a prefab.

 

Edited February 19, 2022 by RipClaw (see edit history)

[theFlu]

7 hours ago, 8_Hussars said:

Considering that "cheese" is merely a personal opinion (unless you are TFPs)

 

1 hour ago, RipClaw said:

What is cheese ? How do you know that you are not cheesing ?

 

I'm in the camp of "entirely up to TFP", so my opinion on it is pointless. Plus ITT I already said explicitly I don't mind the forcefields in the current game, it's a moat. Place two frame shapes / use hatches for 4x4 access, no difference.

 

If you want my pointless opinion on any other brand of cheese, you'll have to give specifics.

 

Some zombie sandworm eating the player could still be funny though

 

4 hours ago, Laz Man said:

Hopefully, we can still get something better implemented before gold.

 

If nothing else, make then into their own set of "grass" blocks. Directly replacable by blocks, no SI support, no pathing, crafted from paint.

Edited February 19, 2022 by theFlu (see edit history)

[JoeDaFrogman]

On 2/17/2022 at 1:46 PM, Roland said:

 

This fix would take such a miniscule amount of time that doing so would not take the place of adding new content. I wouldn't want TFP to spend time hunting down stuff like this as that could take a long time but if they are gift wrapped for them and the fix is easy and fast-- why not?

 

So, my concern really boils down to unintended or perhaps undocumented(or perhaps more poorly documented is a better way to term it) changes to again, fix something that at least in my mind is a non issue.   What does it hurt if someone wants to cheat?   I know I for one have never used the arrowslits to make a "force field"(though I have seen it done so know of it's existence).   

 

To me the problem is that now while it fixes the "cheat" it also removes functionality that has been there for several years, namely being able to repair and connect electrical connections through them.   I have heavily used arrowslits specifically because of it's ability to be able to run electrical wires/repair through them in the past.   Sadly, I did not know of this consequence of the fix until today, right after I placed 8 arrowslits in concrete last night(did not try to wire them as I am not quite at that point until next time we play).  Now, sadly I have to waste someone's time to come over and break these concrete blocks and try to either come up with ANOTHER magical block that does work(until the devs "fix it" or completely change my base design concepts which is quite annoying once you have invested resources into a base design(it's not like I am starting from scratch after each update).    I have a potential replacement candidate someone told me about so im going to have to spend some time in a creative world to verify simply because "we don't want people to be able to cheat themselves in their own game"(this is the part that frustrates me).   

 

Now, if faatal or any of the devs said "hey this change(the arrowslot fix that is) smooths out FPS spikes by 5%" or something equally compelling, then I might be a bit less frustrated about functionality being removed, but to my knowledge, there is no such performance increase it's merely "we don't want to playing like that".

 

 

[RipClaw]

3 hours ago, JoeDaFrogman said:

Now, sadly I have to waste someone's time to come over and break these concrete blocks and try to either come up with ANOTHER magical block that does work(until the devs "fix it" or completely change my base design concepts which is quite annoying once you have invested resources into a base design(it's not like I am starting from scratch after each update). 

Cube 1/2 Thin Window has similar properties regarding repairing and connecting electrical traps. The slit is larger but all in all it works as a replacement for the arrow slits.

Edited February 21, 2022 by RipClaw (see edit history)

[Jinx_DG]

There are many, many new blocks that can be used in a similar fashion. One comes to mind that I would like to test, but to lazy to do is: 

7 Days to Die - Floating Base Build - ICG Grades Season 3, Ep. 8

[Roland]

On 2/20/2022 at 6:51 PM, JoeDaFrogman said:

 I know I for one have never used the arrowslits to make a "force field"(though I have seen it done so know of it's existence).

 

Guess who else never refers to the arrow slits as "force fields" -- the dev team. The dev team didn't fix this to prevent a force field. Really, the dev team can't be said to be against force fields at all since they create them for the Trader encampments on purpose...

 

On 2/20/2022 at 6:51 PM, JoeDaFrogman said:

To me the problem is that now while it fixes the "cheat"

 

On 2/20/2022 at 6:51 PM, JoeDaFrogman said:

simply because "we don't want people to be able to cheat themselves in their own game"

 

You are barking up the wrong tree from an entirely erroneous premise. You think the devs fixed the block because they wanted to stop players from cheating while the devs, themselves, think they fixed the block to fix a zombie pathing issue. There is a big difference. I know for a fact the team does not care if players want to use blocks in creative ways to cheat but that they do care that each block functions as intended and that entities in the world can path properly over all blocks in the game. The devs themselves often use blocks creatively when building POIs and they certainly don't want any block they may use become a potential spot where zombies get stuck and foiled in their movement. As long as a block is working properly as intended they are perfectly happy to allow players to exploit those blocks. The proof of this will be seen when they call the game finished and there will be endless exploits possible that players can choose to do. I'm sure there will be a lot of salty players who proclaim the game broken because TFP didn't take measures to ensure that every cheesy exploit was closed.  It just shows that they can't win but they aren't concerned. They make sure the blocks work as intended for placement, functionality, and pathing. Beyond that it is player choice.

 

On 2/20/2022 at 6:51 PM, JoeDaFrogman said:

Now, if faatal or any of the devs said "hey this change(the arrowslot fix that is) smooths out FPS spikes by 5%" or something equally compelling, then I might be a bit less frustrated about functionality being removed

 

Performance is not the only consideration that the developers use for changes. They have an intended purpose and functionality in mind for blocks and it is their call to enforce those things. Why should they support magical properties just because you want to use magic. I've visited structures that have arrow slits and it most definitely is in the realm of magic thinking any sort interaction could be done through those slits other than shooting arrows or bullets. You could never pull a bag of loot through them or reach through them and have leverage enough to repair traps etc. It would simply be an impossibility. If the devs feel that the intended function of the arrow slits is to shoot at enemies under cover and that is it then they are certainly within their rights to do that.

 

Now you say that your new task is to figure out magical properties of some other block upon which to base your strategies until that block possibly gets fixed in the future. All I can say is that there is a good chance that may happen. You are playing a game that is actively being developed and the only constant is change. Searching out strategies that are based upon wonky or weird magical properties of blocks is an incredibly sandy foundation and you are almost certainly going to be setting yourself up for disappointment as the devs continue to polish and make multiple passes over the blocks and find where they are not within the intended function of their creation.

[RipClaw]

9 minutes ago, Roland said:

You are playing a game that is actively being developed and the only constant is change.

What bugged me most was not so much that the properties of the arrow slits were changed but the bad timing.

 

The best time for this change would be the release of A20 EXP since everyone started a new world at this point anyway. However, the change was made with a small update at a time when players had already built their bases.

 

I already had arrow slits in my base to protect my dart traps when the update was released. Fortunately, I had access at the back to refill the darts. Otherwise, I would have had to remove several steel blocks to access the dart traps.

 

[AtomicUs5000]

Well, I think if you decide to use something that is probably an exploit and probably not intended by the developers, you take the personal risk of that changing at any given time. On top of that, you run the risk of getting used to some base design, leaving you unprepared to handle things in a different way. On that note, I think a contributing factor is that there aren't enough clever but more legitimate things you can experiment with. There isn't really that much variety in base defense in comparison to other tower defense-like games. Few zombies have special traits with corresponding methods to deal with them in terms of base defense.

[Roland]

4 minutes ago, RipClaw said:

What bugged me most was not so much that the properties of the arrow slits were changed but the bad timing.

 

The best time for this change would be the release of A20 EXP since everyone started a new world at this point anyway. However, the change was made with a small update at a time when players had already built their bases.

 

I already had arrow slits in my base to protect my dart traps when the update was released. Fortunately, I had access at the back to refill the darts. Otherwise, I would have had to remove several steel blocks to access the dart traps.

 

 

I agree. Timing was unfortunate. On the other hand it boggles my mind that people try to play longterm games before the final .x update of an Alpha is announced and expect a smooth ride. If we get to Alpha 20.6 and TFP calls it done until Alpha 21 then you are sure to have pleeeeeeeeenty of time for a super longterm game without annoying changes before being forced to start again. Even though updates may not require a restart there are sure to be annoyances that anyone playing a developing game should expect to have happen. If you don't want any of that then you should be playing A19.6 right now.

 

Absolutely, download the newest alpha and check out the changes and satisfy your curiosity but if you are trying to play the same save through .1 .2 .3 .4 .5 until TFP finally and fully shifts to A21 and expect to not feel annoyed at nerfs, changes, glitches, etc then you aren't operating off of realistic expectations of development.

[JoeDaFrogman]

8 hours ago, Roland said:

 

 

8 hours ago, Roland said:

I know for a fact the team does not care if players want to use blocks in creative ways to cheat but that they do care that each block functions as intended and that entities in the world can path properly over all blocks in the game. The devs themselves often use blocks creatively when building POIs and they certainly don't want any block they may use become a potential spot where zombies get stuck and foiled in their movement.

Ok, I can conceed this as a possible point.    My question here then if the primary consideration is pathing over arrowslit blocks where that would make an issue for  the POI developers, is there a POI(or multiple) or in development where the use of arrowslits are used and it was causing a pathing problem?    I have 2000 hours in the PC game and perhaps another 1500 on the console and granted, I just might me missing something, but so far I don't recall seeing arrowslits used in any way that would be a pathable block where this would cause zombies an issue.    I will say if I am wrong and missed such an instance, will admit my mistake(ie, I would really love to know such a POI if it exists)

 

  

 

8 hours ago, Roland said:

As long as a block is working properly as intended they are perfectly happy to allow players to exploit those blocks.

...

 

They make sure the blocks work as intended for placement, functionality, and pathing. Beyond that it is player choice.

...

 

They have an intended purpose and functionality in mind for blocks and it is their call to enforce those things.

...

If the devs feel that the intended function of the arrow slits is to shoot at enemies under cover and that is it then they are certainly within their rights to do that.

 

 

And here is the rub.  They no longer work as ARROW Slits.   They provide absolutely zero protection from cop spit(just like bars) as if they were an empty window now.   I don't know how they were before, but at least now, you and the enemies that have ranged attacks can "shoot" through the visual model as if it were bars or even an empty wall.  There zero collision.     @dcsobral has displayed this in a video on the A20 dev thread.

 

 

8 hours ago, Roland said:

Why should they support magical properties just because you want to use magic. I've visited structures that have arrow slits and it most definitely is in the realm of magic thinking any sort interaction could be done through those slits other than shooting arrows or bullets. You could never pull a bag of loot through them or reach through them and have leverage enough to repair traps etc. It would simply be an impossibility.

Ok, ill give you this point, but then make the electricity not so finicky to connect at it's max distance of 14.5 blocks so one could have the same distance but not be limited by the "red line" distance which is quite a bit shorter than the max connection distance.    I would be FINE if I could still make my connections with no magic blocks at 14.5 blocks.    This part is the big issue here in that in a point release a major change was made to how electricity works due to changing how the block works.       I know some people who have had issues with wires just randomly sometimes moving off to zero/zero(via a bug).   So the solution for the players is to rewire them, but since they now can't wire through steel iron slits, they have to destroy and rewire their bases in a different way and perhaps abandon the base entirely depending on their base design.   Now, this is easy to do if you are willing to "cheat" and use DM mod and the block destruction gun and CM a few resources back, but that might not be an option for people playing on a server.    

 

 

8 hours ago, Roland said:

Now you say that your new task is to figure out magical properties of some other block upon which to base your strategies until that block possibly gets fixed in the future. All I can say is that there is a good chance that may happen. You are playing a game that is actively being developed and the only constant is change. Searching out strategies that are based upon wonky or weird magical properties of blocks is an incredibly sandy foundation and you are almost certainly going to be setting yourself up for disappointment as the devs continue to polish and make multiple passes over the blocks and find where they are not within the intended function of their creation.

 

All of this is really to say that its frustrating for such a major change in a point release.    I don't expect a reversion(meaning while I can certainly hope for one, I am not holding my breath for it), but I still want to make my voice heard in any event because, well I'm frustrated at such a huge change to how electricity works to fix a pathing issue for a block that I just don't believe any POI designers are/will using as a pathable block.

 

 

 

 

 

8 hours ago, RipClaw said:

What bugged me most was not so much that the properties of the arrow slits were changed but the bad timing.

 

The best time for this change would be the release of A20 EXP since everyone started a new world at this point anyway. However, the change was made with a small update at a time when players had already built their bases.

 

I already had arrow slits in my base to protect my dart traps when the update was released. Fortunately, I had access at the back to refill the darts. Otherwise, I would have had to remove several steel blocks to access the dart traps.

 

Pretty much this.   This IS a huge change to the game mechanics around how electricity works vs how it used to work.   

 

I have built  a number of bases to use EXACTLY 14 blocks and now there is no possible way to repair them if they break out totally without breaking out steel blocks and replace them with "something".   I have used vault hatches before, but they are a bit harder since the hatch model of the outline is freaking HUGE.   Not a game breaker as there are some ways, but just more annoying.

[Roland]

54 minutes ago, JoeDaFrogman said:

Ok, I can conceed this as a possible point.    My question here then if the primary consideration is pathing over arrowslit blocks where that would make an issue for  the POI developers, is there a POI(or multiple) or in development where the use of arrowslits are used and it was causing a pathing problem?    I have 2000 hours in the PC game and perhaps another 1500 on the console and granted, I just might me missing something, but so far I don't recall seeing arrowslits used in any way that would be a pathable block where this would cause zombies an issue.    I will say if I am wrong and missed such an instance, will admit my mistake(ie, I would really love to know such a POI if it exists)

 

haha..you know I can't point to an existing POI but who can say about the future. The point is that if zombies can't path over a block they are going to fix that block. If you are looking for proof that the devs are fixing pathing issues rather than just trolling players-- I guess you'll just have to trust me.  I guess one proof lies in nerd poling. There was a huge discussion and debate on whether nerd poling should be allowed and the devs finally said that they didn't care whether players chose to use the blocks in that fashion and that frame blocks were working as intended. 

 

I know these guys pretty well. You have 2000 hours on the PC and 1500 on the console interacting with the game and you know it pretty well. I have a lot more than that interacting with these guys making the game and I can assure you that they don't watch streamer videos together and then plan their next "take that" move vs the players.

 

As for the fix that turned the block into bars-- that definitely should be reported in the bug forum and not just demonstrated in the dev diary. If anyone is halfway serious about wanting the block to provide better cover that better matches its visual representation then the best place to do that is in the bug report forum where the QA guys will create a ticket for the programmers to take a look.

[Laz Man]

6 hours ago, JoeDaFrogman said:

I have built  a number of bases to use EXACTLY 14 blocks and now there is no possible way to repair them if they break out totally without breaking out steel blocks and replace them with "something".   I have used vault hatches before, but they are a bit harder since the hatch model of the outline is freaking HUGE.   Not a game breaker as there are some ways, but just more annoying.

 

The new shutters that can open might be a good alternative.  They have an inside and outside variant which gives players alot of choices in their use.

[RipClaw]

6 hours ago, Roland said:

I have a lot more than that interacting with these guys making the game and I can assure you that they don't watch streamer videos together and then plan their next "take that" move vs the players.

But they do seem to watch videos of JaWoodle who is known for breaking the AI. If I remember correctly, his name was dropped once or twice in a developer stream.

 

[JoeDaFrogman]

4 hours ago, Laz Man said:

 

The new shutters that can open might be a good alternative.  They have an inside and outside variant which gives players alot of choices in their use.

Thanks Laz,   dcsobral(who did the video I discuss above) already pointed that out to me as a good alternative to hatches that accomidate how this block change affects the way people can interact with electrical components.

 

I appreciate you going out of your way to suggest an alternative.

 

 

[Roland]

5 hours ago, RipClaw said:

But they do seem to watch videos of JaWoodle who is known for breaking the AI. If I remember correctly, his name was dropped once or twice in a developer stream.

 

 

So what if they watch streamers? I've said elsewhere that discovery is the time intensive portion of fixing bugs and so if there are a couple of guys who are dedicating their time to finding blocks that have weird and unintended properties then of course they are going to use that resource. After all, getting the community to test things and report them is a lot of what Early Access is about.

 

Watching Jawoodle and noticing how blocks are not behaving as intended is different than watching Jawoodle and then scheming together how they can stop players from using cheesy strategies. Think about all the posts we ever read on the forum from people who are outraged about cheese tactics and want changes made to force players to abandon those tactics. Those posts all come from players and not the developers. There are only three instances that I can remember that the developers, themselves, went on record stating that they were going to stop things that players were doing:

 

1) Dig down two blocks and be safe forever

2) Tread water and be safe forever

3) Drive around on vehicles and be safe forever

 

That's it. And they owned up to their feelings and their motivation. Everything else that they get accused of for going to war against players is simply conjecture and speculation and it is misplaced.

[RipClaw]

33 minutes ago, Roland said:

So what if they watch streamers?

Nothing. I have only noticed that whenever JaWoodle has broken something is was usually fixed in the next alpha version.

 

I was surprised that the zombie forcefield worked for so long. It was discovered in A17 and I expected that it no longer works in A18.

 

For me, this looks like a funny cat and mouse game between JaWoodle and the developers. He breaks stuff, and they fix it. 😀

 

Edited March 3, 2022 by RipClaw (see edit history)

[AtomicUs5000]

I hope they watch streamers more often. There was this period where watching content was a real drag and so I just stopped watching. Everybody just kept making the same bases again and again. Sure, they may have started from scratch, or started with a different POI, but in the end, it was always the same. Now, I feel like half of every game is staring at a trader, but that's another story.

[blitzkrieg7498]

My problem with all this focus, is that its detracting from major issues that need addressing, like the wonkiest of physics engines and hit boxes, molasses-water (slated to be fixed, we'll see later), zombies choosing paths that make no sense when canonically zombies arent super engineers, the new fiasco that is armor sets (couldnt just go with the diablo 2 route with differing size sets so people can still mix and match), the lack of story implementation except that zombies get weaker in the sun and higashi had something to do with it, a crafting system that is being outshone by modded versions of your game like Darkness Falls (and DF has a nice variety of zombies while were on the note). All these blemishes cause frustration, especially when one topic receives so much attention, and it is realistically a minor issue, and it 100% is minor.

 

I can respect the idea of letting people like Jawoodle break your game just so you know how to fix it, but theres a line to be drawn Fun Pimps. You're taking the "Game Master vs Players" mentality too hard, focusing too hard on a small group of players, and ruining the fun for more than just them. I would like to recommend Matt Colville, https://www.youtube.com/user/mcolville , who currently is a TTRPG Game Master and Freelance writer, but also worked on games like the Mercenaries franchise. He really helped me understand how to interact with the players. Obviously not all his videos will pertain to this game, but principles can be drawn and applied.

[Laz Man]

26 minutes ago, RipClaw said:

Nothing. I have only noticed that whenever JaWoodle has broken something is was usually fixed in the next alpha version.

 

I was surprised that the zombie forcefield worked for so long. It was discovered in A17 and I expected that it no longer works in A18.

 

For me, this looks like a funny cat and mouse game between JaWoodle and the developers. He breaks stuff, and they fix it. 😀

 

 

The forcefield is actually a very good example of the devs prioritizing bugs correctly.  I vaguely recall it being reported and reproduced in A19. 

 

If my memory is correct, there wasn't a good fix at the time that wouldnt impact performance so the bug was shelved for the moment.

 

One thing that causes people to think the devs are out to ruin people's fun are content creators.  Its usually specific wording (eg. "Nerfs"vs "fixes"), statements (e.g. "take that TFPs!!!") and or thumbnails in their videos that get people thinking that way.

 

Edit: On the positive side, there are some players who fully acknowledge how helpful content creators are at finding/reporting issues and are not mad at all.

Edited March 3, 2022 by Laz Man (see edit history)

[RipClaw]

34 minutes ago, Laz Man said:

 

One thing that causes people to think the devs are out to ruin people's fun are content creators.  Its usually specific wording (eg. "Nerfs"vs "fixes"), statements (e.g. "take that TFPs!!!") and or thumbnails in their videos that get people thinking that way.

Fix or nerf. It always depends on your point of view. If you used something to your advantage it is a nerf. If something bothered you then it is a fix.

 

Let's take a current example. SMG turrets and shotgun turrets no longer trigger the explosion of Demolishers. However, this change was not mentioned in the release notes. Therefore, it is unknown if it is a bug or intentional.

 

Players have now started to integrate the turrets into their bases. If it's a bug from the developers' point of view and they fix it, it will be a nerf from the players' point of view because their base's defense has been weakened.

[POCKET951]

2 hours ago, Roland said:

 

So what if they watch streamers? I've said elsewhere that discovery is the time intensive portion of fixing bugs and so if there are a couple of guys who are dedicating their time to finding blocks that have weird and unintended properties then of course they are going to use that resource. After all, getting the community to test things and report them is a lot of what Early Access is about.

 

Watching Jawoodle and noticing how blocks are not behaving as intended is different than watching Jawoodle and then scheming together how they can stop players from using cheesy strategies. Think about all the posts we ever read on the forum from people who are outraged about cheese tactics and want changes made to force players to abandon those tactics. Those posts all come from players and not the developers. There are only three instances that I can remember that the developers, themselves, went on record stating that they were going to stop things that players were doing:

 

1) Dig down two blocks and be safe forever

2) Tread water and be safe forever

3) Drive around on vehicles and be safe forever

 

That's it. And they owned up to their feelings and their motivation. Everything else that they get accused of for going to war against players is simply conjecture and speculation and it is misplaced.

I'm not outraged and nor do I want to try and force people to abandon this strategy. The intent of this post was to simply inform everyone(TFP included) in a clear and quick manner(gift wrapped so to speak) so that the information was there and it would be easy to make a decision or evaluate it.