Xp Imbalances and shared XP

[Shockwave1]

I'd like to see an option to share all XP earned between party members.  Our group would love it.

 

We have a 3 person group usually. One specs into INT.  They get XP for traps adn we like to build trap bases, which are fun, and for selling all our stuff (selling 3 people's worth of loot adds up).

One specs into STR. They mine which nets a good deal of XP (but not as much as traps+selling).

One specs into PER and likes to loot/quest (of course INT has the quest reward bonus and  PER has the loot bonus). He gets no XP. We have to save upgrading the base blocks for him so he can keep up in levels which is a pain because he doesn't like to build... and is out questing more than the rest of us (although we generally quest together as much as possible). He also ends up as our farmer.

 

There are also odd XP imbalances. If we quest during the day and "work" at night: If one person mines all night, and one person farms, and cooks and one person crafts us mods and steel and cement. The miner gets a ton of XP, the crafter gets none (it's all on the work benches) and the farmer and cook get none. Yet they all contribute to the group's readiness to quest the next day.

 

The builder/architect gets a bunch of XP. Which means if the miner designs the base (which is how it works out in our group as none of the others want to) then they have to call someone over to upgrade the blocks.

 

The entire XP distribution in MP is wonky. As it's already pretty slow leveling, I'd hate to see any of the activities nerfed. So I'd rather have an option box on server setup for "share all XP". So we can share it all, 100% across the board. Then set the range to 10K meters.  Since it's an option nobody has to use it.

 

At the very least I think traps should be universal and give XP For kills to anyone. The idea that only INT characters can get XP for trap kills in a tower defense situation is weird. A small bonus maybe.

Edited January 25, 2022 by Shockwave1 (see edit history)

[Niil945]

So benches, and I just happened to notice this, give xp if you have the bench open when it completes crafting. You can see by crafting things in the forge the constant tick of low amounts of xp. Same with the workbench, though again it's not much. I agree on the trap kills that it should share, if people care about trying to be in the same level range it's an incentive against using them in MP. Base building is weird. It can be huge amounts of experience that I *think* may have originated with the idea that INT wasn't as combat capable and thus wouldn't be out running missions and would be too far away to get kill xp. Thing is I play with numerous distinct groups that go through phases playing different alphas then they come back for new ones and start over. Every single group sets kill share xp to a large range. I certainly can't speak about everyone's experience but that's my experience with MP.

 

I really wish there was a server toggle that shared all xp with party regardless of the source. There's already an adjustable range on kill xp that can be effectively mapwide. The shaper block rewards helped in the sense that it cut out some of the xp that I would have gotten but if I use the concrete shape helper blocks I try to have the lowest level person do the upgrading to steel like you do to assist them with levels during the nighttime hours.

[Shockwave1]

14 minutes ago, Niil945 said:

So benches, and I just happened to notice this, give xp if you have the bench open when it completes crafting. You can see by crafting things in the forge the constant tick of low amounts of xp.

 

Yeah but they craft multiple things and sitting in a work bench watching things craft is a nonstarter.

14 minutes ago, Niil945 said:

Thing is I play with numerous distinct groups that go through phases playing different alphas then they come back for new ones and start over. Every single group sets kill share xp to a large range.

 

We did that at first, then realized that it was worse. If the miner skipped a quest run (the INT and PEr guy went and shared a quest) because we need ore and had  to spend a day mining because we were short on stuff, he sucked away XP from their kills, while he got 100% XP from his mining. So we reduced the kill XP range down again to 100M or so to help out the PER quest guy who killed more zeds or quested alone more than anyone else.

 

If it was all shared than yeah, 10K range and nobody has to worry about what they are doing we can all just play and contribute.

[Sjustus548]

It seems strange that xp from kills is shared but nothing else.  I'm really glad that they let us share kill xp because I usually dominate the others in the number of zombie kills unless I basically stop killing and let others catch up lol.  I would like the option to allow other forms of xp sharing.  Like could set it to None, Zombie Kills Only, or All XP Shared.  Since you have to be in the same group to get the shared xp it wouldn't be too bad to share all xp if you chose that setting.  

[theFlu]

2 hours ago, Sjustus548 said:

It seems strange that xp from kills is shared but nothing else.  I'm really glad that they let us share kill xp because

The reason you're glad is the exact reason it exists; without shared kill XP, questing in groups would turn into silly round robin games of sharing kills. Or a competition on killing blows, or both. I don't think TFP ideally want any type of XP sharing, but for group killing, it's kind of a must.

 

For the other things like mining, it's a lot less weird not to share. But since one form of sharing is in, the other forms are becoming an issue; at least they're not really well in balance; miner/builder will make a ton of extra. Sharing it all is a solution, but it will kinda feel really stupid for my friend to be levelling up on top of my mine during a night, doing nothing...

[Niil945]

9 hours ago, Shockwave1 said:

Yeah but they craft multiple things and sitting in a work bench watching things craft is a nonstarter.

Oh I don't disagree there. And the xp is really tiny too, so sitting there with the bench open waiting to get it isn't really something I expect people to do. Unless they're going afk while they wait there are better options for use of time. I just noticed it was happening and thought it odd first that it even happened and second that the xp was so low it might as well not exist anyways.

[Sjustus548]

2 hours ago, theFlu said:

...without shared kill XP, questing in groups would turn into silly round robin games of sharing kills. 

From what I'm reading this is kind of a lot of groups are having to do now with upgrading blocks on their bases.  Have the lost level person do the upgrading because it gives so much xp.
 

2 hours ago, theFlu said:

but it will kinda feel really stupid for my friend to be levelling up on top of my mine during a night, doing nothing...

In that way of thinking it's also kind of weird for your friend to level up while sitting in the base doing nothing while you are out killing things... 

Edited January 26, 2022 by Sjustus548 (see edit history)

[theFlu]

Hmm... I wonder how many of those groups would change their approach the moment they realize they'll get bigger hordes and better loot by levelling one guy above the rest...

[Darklegend222]

6 minutes ago, theFlu said:

Hmm... I wonder how many of those groups would change their approach the moment they realize they'll get bigger hordes and better loot by levelling one guy above the rest...

Not very. Then you have multiple people not very skilled, not very able to do their own thing. Then it gets very hard for everyone and only one guy can truly take on the largest hordes with his traps, then everyone else loses out on even more exp, now they're fighting radiated zombies and relying on the loot the highest person gets.

 

Which that highest person will have to loot, farm, build, upgrade, mine, and everything that gives the most exp on their own. That's not a fun way to play a game, and it should not be nearly that reliant on a singular person.

[theFlu]

1 minute ago, Darklegend222 said:

person will have to loot, farm, build, upgrade, mine,

Yeh, it's also a bit self defeating; farming can be removed from that list as it's not that big of an investment or XP source, but assuming one guy is mining and building, trying to have them also loot all the big stuff is going to be difficult.

[Darklegend222]

Just now, theFlu said:

Yeh, it's also a bit self defeating; farming can be removed from that list as it's not that big of an investment or XP source, but assuming one guy is mining and building, trying to have them also loot all the big stuff is going to be difficult.

Which is exactly why I don't see it getting used. All it would do is make the game harder for everyone, and speed up the loot process for hordes. If you can build the best horde bases out of steel, just go to the wasteland for your hordes and build a horde base there. Then you're guaranteed the best loot, no need for someone to be much higher level.

 

We brought a level 9 into our group recently, and they got decimated by radiated zombies in a tier 2 buried supplies. So now we've got to babysit someone until they level up enough to efficiently use their weapons and armor. It's no way to play the game.

[theFlu]

1 hour ago, Darklegend222 said:

All it would do is make the game harder for everyone, and speed up the loot process for hordes.

That would be the point though, to speed up the early to mid game. Level 9 in a group with rads wouldn't really happen because of that, that would require the others not to do anything at all, which would be .. well, weird. Then again, I'm currently sitting in wasteland making a swimming-corridor-base for a penetrator build... weird might be what I do.

[Shockwave1]

13 hours ago, theFlu said:

. Sharing it all is a solution, but it will kinda feel really stupid for my friend to be levelling up on top of my mine during a night, doing nothing...

 I disagree. It is a fine solution because the implementation of XP is so wonky. Builders get a ton, but only upgrading, making and placing made blocks gets you a fraction of that (which is nuts), and essential tasks get no xp (cooking, farming, crafting mods, smelting, even unloading our jeep and putting things away). I see the sharing option as just compensating for the xp that my friends should be getting from doing those tasks but aren't. They aren't doing nothing. In addition we can do whatever and not care who upgrades the blocks on the base, whoever has time can do it instead of waiting for the lower level guy to do it.

 

It would be WAY more fun. Which is the point of the game.

Edited January 26, 2022 by Shockwave1 (see edit history)

[Boidster]

10 hours ago, Darklegend222 said:

Then you're guaranteed the best loot, no need for someone to be much higher level.

 

Even in the wasteland, loot is relative to lootstage. You get a boost, but your Level 9 will still get relatively crappy loot compared to your Level 100. 

 

10 hours ago, Darklegend222 said:

We brought a level 9 into our group recently, and they got decimated by radiated zombies in a tier 2 buried supplies. So now we've got to babysit someone until they level up enough to efficiently use their weapons and armor. It's no way to play the game.

 

This is a 'feature' of all level-scaled co-op games, innit? I'm not sure how the game could even prevent it regardless of the XP award system, shared or not. A group of l33ts with a n00b is going to have to babysit the n00b. If they like her/him that is.  

 

Actually, if the game shared proportionally more XP with the n00b than it did for the l33ts, that could be a way to rubber-band the n00b into higher levels more quickly. But the wailing and gnashing of teeth would be detected on seismographs worldwide.

 

All of this is why I'm in favor of the XP-for-survival idea. Every 60 IRL minutes you survive you get a congratulatory package of XP. Every time you die, you take a hit to the 60-minute counter. Do what you want - mine, craft, farm, kill, loot, make a pass at Joel or Jen - doesn't matter. If you survive, you make progress. No more XP farming, the only goal is to survive another day. Roland passed on to me his 0XP mod from A18 and I'm sorta dipping my toe into the DLL modding side of things to see if I can put something like this together. I'm sure it's doable, I just have a lot to learn about the game's main DLL.

Edited January 26, 2022 by Boidster (see edit history)

[theFlu]

25 minutes ago, Shockwave1 said:

It is a fine solution because the implementation of XP is so wonky.

Shure, the XP is wonky. Spraying it all over isn't exactly a fix though, that's just equity. I'd rather they just remove XP from mining / building and call it a day, XP = zeds. Mining / building = a functional base, resources to fight said zeds.

 

Or implement that Rol/Boid's 0XP from above or, h, go back to LBD.

[Darklegend222]

4 hours ago, Boidster said:

 

Even in the wasteland, loot is relative to lootstage. You get a boost, but your Level 9 will still get relatively crappy loot compared to your Level 100. 

 

 

This is a 'feature' of all level-scaled co-op games, innit? I'm not sure how the game could even prevent it regardless of the XP award system, shared or not. A group of l33ts with a n00b is going to have to babysit the n00b. If they like her/him that is.  

 

Actually, if the game shared proportionally more XP with the n00b than it did for the l33ts, that could be a way to rubber-band the n00b into higher levels more quickly. But the wailing and gnashing of teeth would be detected on seismographs worldwide.

 

All of this is why I'm in favor of the XP-for-survival idea. Every 60 IRL minutes you survive you get a congratulatory package of XP. Every time you die, you take a hit to the 60-minute counter. Do what you want - mine, craft, farm, kill, loot, make a pass at Joel or Jen - doesn't matter. If you survive, you make progress. No more XP farming, the only goal is to survive another day. Roland passed on to me his 0XP mod from A18 and I'm sorta dipping my toe into the DLL modding side of things to see if I can put something like this together. I'm sure it's doable, I just have a lot to learn about the game's main DLL.

Oh I'm well aware of the effects of bringing a level 9 in, however going out of our way to make sure that only one person is way ahead of everyone else is just a very stupid idea to me. Not only does it make everyone reliant on that one person, but they essentially have to babysit everyone. That's just not a fun experience for anyone.

 

I wish you luck learning the DLL, i tried adding a second item to the deadEye perks tag under RecipeTagUnlock and no matter what I did it, it wouldn't set a value to the tag. Ended up scrapping my gating part of the mod and just said eff it, everyone can craft all these parts regardless of perks.

 

Modding is fun, but damn does it take it out of you.

[Roland]

What's funny about shared XP and everyone here suggesting that it ALL should be shared, is what the original intent of shared xp was.  @theFlu was exactly right about the reasoning and that was because when it was first implemented the default setting was that you had to be close together in a party working together for the sharing to even happen. But with options for distances all the way up to map wide (or is that a mod?), I think most players play xp sharing map-wide (or whatever the max unmodded distance is) which is really (in my opinion) silly. Full disclosure:  I do it too--  because my family insists.

 

But I don't know how it can be justified that I get part of the kill xp that someone 2 km away made. I wasn't involved at all. How did I learn anything by it? It makes no sense. So if my buddy is mining 2km away in what way would his actions build experience within me? (I certainly hope nobody who praised LBD because of how much sense it made for gaining experience is in here pushing for shared xp from a long distance...heheh)

 

I'd be for sharing xp of every single activity in the game as long as the devs hard-code in that you must be within 10 meters of anyone you want to share with so you at least have to be able to see what they are doing to learn from it. Shared xp was supposed to be an incentive to party up and play together. It wasn't intended to simply be a tool to try and keep everyone at about the same level and that seems to be how a lot of people in this thread are viewing it and why they feel it is unbalanced. It is unbalanced for keeping everyone's xp in the party in equilibrium because that isn't the purpose for which it was created.

 

I'd be interested to know how many people play shared xp with default proximity rules in place.

[Sjustus548]

12 minutes ago, Roland said:

I'd be interested to know how many people play shared xp with default proximity rules in place.

We play at the max distance, which is 10km unmodded, but it's just my wife and I on the server.  We usually are very close together at all times so there isn't any reason to set it that high other than we can lol.  

[DiegoLBC1]

19 minutes ago, Roland said:

I'd be interested to know how many people play shared xp with default proximity rules in place.

 

I play on a server where the share is 100m or less (I don't remember what the vanilla default is), and that's fine with me.

I'm basically in charge of hunting, while my friend is in charge of food and construction. As my playing time is short, I go hunting about 80% of the time, so he will have enough resources to make food for us when he enters the game. When our schedules coincide and we play together we do quests, build and loot.

That's why he's currently above level 20, maybe 30, and I'm still below 20. The difference is small, but I noticed that when we face hordes or do missions the difficulty is based on the highest level, so it ends up being more difficult for me keep up, but still, I don't think there's anything that justifies full XP sharing, our backpacks are already heavy enough to carry others player too.
 

I think everyone should do their part. Being responsible for hunting doesn't make me any less responsible for fighting during blood moons, or that I can't help with construction. If a person doesn't like such actions then I think he should go his own way, it's not fair or fun that just one player to carry all on group

PS: Yes, when he can't play I also take care of building and cooking, but as he already has a focus on these skills he uses less resources than I do.  Likewise, when we need to hunt, I collect more resources for having invested in "Huntersman". So we help as we can

Edited January 26, 2022 by DiegoLBC1 (see edit history)

[Darklegend222]

19 hours ago, Roland said:

 (I certainly hope nobody who praised LBD because of how much sense it made for gaining experience is in here pushing for shared xp from a long distance...heheh)

What's funny about that Roland, back in A15 the more you crafted a tool, the better you got at it. There was 0 need for exp at all regarding weapons or tool quality. Nowadays? You need exp for everything involving weapons. You quite literally rely on exp to make a better pickaxe, didn't used to be that way in A15. Even A15 allowed you to combine tools in a workbench to get better ones up to level 600.

 

As for your other statements, they are all sound. However, it comes back to exp being a necessity. If you igore exp, your now far behind than every single one of your friends, and now you have to deal with zombies at their level when you're not there yet. Which is exactly why people push for all the shared exp so hard. Is it not immersive and breaks the laws of physics? Yep, but does it make sure everyone is on the same playing field and no one is left behind in a PvE survival game about surviving hordes? Absolutely.

 

 

[BFT2020]

On 1/26/2022 at 10:46 AM, Boidster said:

All of this is why I'm in favor of the XP-for-survival idea. Every 60 IRL minutes you survive you get a congratulatory package of XP. Every time you die, you take a hit to the 60-minute counter. Do what you want - mine, craft, farm, kill, loot, make a pass at Joel or Jen - doesn't matter. If you survive, you make progress. No more XP farming, the only goal is to survive another day. Roland passed on to me his 0XP mod from A18 and I'm sorta dipping my toe into the DLL modding side of things to see if I can put something like this together. I'm sure it's doable, I just have a lot to learn about the game's main DLL.

 

I really want this, even though I only play SP.

10 minutes ago, Darklegend222 said:

What's funny about that Roland, back in A15 the more you crafted a tool, the better you got at it. There was 0 need for exp at all regarding weapons or tool quality. Nowadays? You need exp for everything involving weapons. You quite literally rely on exp to make a better pickaxe, didn't used to be that way in A15. Even A15 allowed you to combine tools in a workbench to get better ones up to level 600.

There are advantages and disadvantages in LBD, like any advancement system.

 

I been splitting my time between 7D2D and another zombie survival game that does use LBD.  While some of it is okay, other parts of it make me think WTH....like improving first aid skill by constantly digging in the ground to scratch up my hands to heal them over and over again, or purposely getting poked by broken glass...otherwise it is a very slow grind to even advance one level (my approach to survival games is not to get hurt, no matter what).

 

Then there is the issue I see all the time with LBD where you spend all day crafting hundreds and hundreds of stone pickaxes, then magically you are able to craft a max quality steel pickaxe.....

[Darklegend222]

14 minutes ago, BFT2020 said:

 

I really want this, even though I only play SP.

There are advantages and disadvantages in LBD, like any advancement system.

 

I been splitting my time between 7D2D and another zombie survival game that does use LBD.  While some of it is okay, other parts of it make me think WTH....like improving first aid skill by constantly digging in the ground to scratch up my hands to heal them over and over again, or purposely getting poked by broken glass...otherwise it is a very slow grind to even advance one level (my approach to survival games is not to get hurt, no matter what).

 

Then there is the issue I see all the time with LBD where you spend all day crafting hundreds and hundreds of stone pickaxes, then magically you are able to craft a max quality steel pickaxe.....

That is the massive downside to LBD and it's the reason I'm not fully die-hard for it. I'm still more in it's favor than the current system. Perhaps a LBD system would only be good for tools and weapons. Let the sex rex, physician, and the intellect tree be all perk reliant, that way we can use whatever weapon and not be too worried about quality.

 

As for needing to craft a lot of them, that's specifically for nighttime when zombies are sprinting everywhere. Nighttime is downtime, and downtime means material gathering, or crafting

[Roland]

36 minutes ago, Darklegend222 said:

As for your other statements, they are all sound. However, it comes back to exp being a necessity. If you igore exp, your now far behind than every single one of your friends, and now you have to deal with zombies at their level when you're not there yet. Which is exactly why people push for all the shared exp so hard. Is it not immersive and breaks the laws of physics? Yep, but does it make sure everyone is on the same playing field and no one is left behind in a PvE survival game about surviving hordes? Absolutely.

 

 

 

I get it. I just don't like it. I'm behind in my own group simply because I don't play as often. Even so I wouldn't want to be gifted a bunch of xp I didn't earn myself. I hate it when I log back in and my family tells me there are tools and weapons in the crates for me and they are all two levels above what I had. Now I'm skipping. Its essentially the same as  just grabbing stuff from the creative menu or giving myself xp through the console commands. Shared xp from kills while we are all together on a quest feels fine but just leeching xp from someone upgrading blocks and mining coal and I'm not even helping them....?

 

I mean lets take it a step further. Since I can't play as often why not have the game pool all the shared xp I'm missing out on while offline and the rest of my team is playing and then when I finally do log in I just get it all. Too far? (I can hear some of you salivating at this idea....)

[meganoth]

My group plays with default distance rules and I don't remember the others ever asking for a change of that. Often someone is a bit behind or ahead in levels but the usual reaction is that the others suggest upgrading of blocks or drinking an xp potion on horde night.

 

If someone is lagging behind and gets into trouble with zombies just give him the best equipment. Problem solved, in a co-op game.

 

 

 

[Boidster]

4 hours ago, meganoth said:

Often someone is a bit behind or ahead in levels but the usual reaction is that the others suggest upgrading of blocks

 

If your group needs shale, you could literally tell them to go pound sand.