Does longer aiming increase damage with the spear?

[meganoth]

Since I'm using the spear now in my MP game this question has been bothering me. In XML I only found this relevant to it:

      <property name="Throw_strength_default" value="6"/>
                <property name="Throw_strength_max" value="18"/>

 

It shows that something depends on how long you aim and I would guess it will surely determine range. But does it also influence damage?

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 30, 2021 by meganoth (see edit history)

[Kyonshi]

Wouldn't that be just the spear's power attack?

[meganoth]

Yes, but does a longer duration of aiming when doing the power attack influence the damage, for example that you only do 100% damage if you fully strike out before you throw?

I suspect not and it only influences how far you throw the spear similar to handgrenades. But I don't know

 

[hiemfire]

Did you check the damage calculation set for the spears' power attack for references to "Throw_Strength"?

[meganoth]

 Yes, but if I didn't overlook something there is neither any settings for range nor damage. And all of XML there is not one further reference to throw_strength. So either throw_strength is ignored completely or the relevant calculations are not exposed to XML

 

[hiemfire]

4 minutes ago, meganoth said:

the relevant calculations are not exposed to XML

 

I think this is most likely if you couldn't find it referenced anywhere else in the XML.

Might seem to be an odd question, but did you check the spear section for any other references to just "Throw"?

[BFT2020]

4 hours ago, meganoth said:

 Yes, but if I didn't overlook something there is neither any settings for range nor damage. And all of XML there is not one further reference to throw_strength. So either throw_strength is ignored completely or the relevant calculations are not exposed to XML

 

 

Have you tried this out in game?  Maybe enable God mod so you can see HP bars and try chucking a few spears at Arlene (When I need a test subject, I usually spawn here in as she is the first normal zombie I come across in the list).

 

Might be faster than searching in the files  😉

[meganoth]

@BFT2020 I was hoping for a quick answer. NOW it definitely would have been faster to just test it 😉

 

@hiemfire: I did read the whole spear section in items.xml . And now I looked up all references to "throw" in all the xml and did find nothing that would influence damage or range of a spear throw.

 

 

[theFlu]

I had a bit of free time to give this a test earlier today, just had a little, ahem, undisclosable obstacles for posting the results. It's quite short, but better than none:

A20, b238
Testing on Nomad difficulty for "normal" damage
A quality 6 steel spear, tooltip power attack damage 80.2
A fresh skill-less character (hello, new test world )

 

A feral Arlene

 

Quick click "dropping" (built a wall to drop spears from, since the range was 0):
Random health -> health after hit
194->114 = 80
237->157 = 80

Full power bar:
197->117 = 80
201->121 = 80

Full power bar + waiting for about 3x more:
248->168 = 80
209->129 = 80

Stone spear (tooltip damage 43.7), same set as above
Quick:  212->169 = 43
Full:   256->213 = 43
Fullx4: 216->173 = 34

No change nor variation.

I could go in and toss a couple more with skills or iron spear, but I think this is pretty satisfactory?
At least I can smell a theme here

[ricp]

Got to say, out of all the people I know, not a single one uses a spear. Not one.

[bloodmoth13]

48 minutes ago, ricp said:

Got to say, out of all the people I know, not a single one uses a spear. Not one.

I recently started a game that centered around the spear. its not a bad melee weapon with its range, if your in a group though just mobbing and CCing zombies would be more useful than the safety of a spears range.

Being able to attack through fences (power attack) or from safe places makes it useful, i used it extensively on a horde night, and i am uncertain that any other weapon would have worked (havent tested, i will try it after my next horde night)

I rarely use the power attack, started 'forcing' myself to recently and it has worked good.

Honestly one of the things that held me back though was not knowing this exact information. Knowing that i dont need to fully charge a power attack is VERY helpful as a spear user.

 

I think if TFP added an option to not release your spear on power attack that would help it a lot, make it so you can pick functionality through the radial dial when you hold R.

 

8 hours ago, theFlu said:

I had a bit of free time to give this a test earlier today, just had a little, ahem, undisclosable obstacles for posting the results. It's quite short, but better than none:

A20, b238

*snip*

No change nor variation.

I could go in and toss a couple more with skills or iron spear, but I think this is pretty satisfactory?
At least I can smell a theme here

Hey thanks for doing the leg work! really appreciate that, i am doing a perception playthrough atm and fully invested in spears and wasnt sure the entire time.

[ricp]

1 hour ago, bloodmoth13 said:

I recently started a game that centered around the spear. its not a bad melee weapon with its range, if your in a group though just mobbing and CCing zombies would be more useful than the safety of a spears range.

 

I am guessing that is the perception build you were talking about in the other thread. I just find it far too glitchy and awkward to use, less intuitive and time consuming compared to other weapons, then you have the issue of collecting the spear you threw if power attacks are your thing. Plus I put as few points into perception as I possibly can.

 

I've not specced into it, or the stun baton for that matter, as to me these are weapons designed to kill you, not the zombies! Perhaps that's my issue, maybe if I conga lined the zombies then was able to take out two or three in a row with the spear then perhaps I might be interested.

 

[meganoth]

2 hours ago, ricp said:

Got to say, out of all the people I know, not a single one uses a spear. Not one.

Me too. My friends are mostly working with computers and don't even carry a knife with them 😁

 

Seriously, if you don't find enough honey in the early game or are not good at fencing with zombies the spear is surely the best melee weapon in the game

 

1 hour ago, bloodmoth13 said:

...

I think if TFP added an option to not release your spear on power attack that would help it a lot, make it so you can pick functionality through the radial dial when you hold R.

 

You can break off throwing if you change to another belt slot. Same for bows

[ricp]

4 minutes ago, meganoth said:

...the spear is surely the best melee weapon in the game

 

* inserts Fry 'not sure if serious' meme *

 

😕

 

[meganoth]

6 minutes ago, ricp said:

 

I am guessing that is the perception build you were talking about in the other thread. I just find it far too glitchy and awkward to use, less intuitive and time consuming compared to other weapons, then you have the issue of collecting the spear you threw if power attacks are your thing. Plus I put as few points into perception as I possibly can.

 

I've not specced into it, or the stun baton for that matter, as to me these are weapons designed to kill you, not the zombies! Perhaps that's my issue, maybe if I conga lined the zombies then was able to take out two or three in a row with the spear then perhaps I might be interested.

 

 

I'm still testing the spear, so not sure as well. It at least takes some getting used to, but so does "meleeing" with a bow as well, I'm just not used to automatically shooting them without aiming. In fact the spear power attack should be very effective if you are directly in front of the zombie and do the power attack without aim then immediately klick on the zombie to get back the spear. This way you get the high damage power attack without having to change the weapon or run to retrieve the spear. And aiming is easier.

 

[meganoth]

16 minutes ago, ricp said:

 

* inserts Fry 'not sure if serious' meme *

 

😕

 

 

Well the part you quoted is wrong on its own. The whole sentence tells in what circumstances that sub-sentence holds.

 

My guess is that novice players biggest problems ATM are food and infections. Combined with them having to learn what is the best distance to a zombie and how to move in melee. Especially if they have problems holding a correct distance to the zombies they are most likely not to get hit with a spear, no matter that they need more hits to kill him. And the spear works very well against zombies suddenly speeding up because you initially have a greater distance to the zombie so more reaction time

 

 

Edited January 2, 2022 by meganoth (see edit history)

[ricp]

Yeah, close throwing, so you can land the power attack while also being close enough to grab the spear back is deffo the best strategy. It seems a bit "exploity" though, simply down to the reach you have in order to get the spear back.

 

I understand the attraction of using it, btw, for me I feel naturally drawn (wait for the pun..) to the bow (there it is!) and the club (or it's variants). These are classic zombie despatching weapons and I will always choose them if given the choice. In that sense I'm sure many feel naturally drawn towards the spear in the same way. Even if I dislike the thing, I do think it's a good addition to the game.

 

I was thinking back to whenever I've used the spear in earnest, and the only instance I can think of was in Ravenhurst (A19) and was stuck in a building with only a spear to stab passing zombies with (thankfully they were in one of their AI loops). It was a long and laborious task and one I wouldn't like to repeat any time soon.

 

Edit:

8 minutes ago, meganoth said:

Well the part you quoted is wrong on its own. The whole sentence tells in what circumstances that sub-sentence holds.

 

Don't worry, I was only messing with you, I get the context you intended.

Edited January 2, 2022 by ricp (see edit history)

[theFlu]

36 minutes ago, meganoth said:

if you don't find enough honey in the early game or are not good at fencing with zombies the spear is surely the best melee weapon in the game

I did read the rest, but I think you have an unreasonable amount of caveats here to make the case. Stone sledge outperforms most if not all spears in any case you want to be meleeing while not getting hit. Spear does have the "give away my weapon"-option, but then you'll need another weapon for backup - so we can freely compare to a pair of weapons; and the starter bow will be miles easier to maintain distance with.

 

Nothing against the spear, it's a fun little gadget, but it's not quite on par with most others.

[bloodmoth13]

22 hours ago, meganoth said:

Me too. My friends are mostly working with computers and don't even carry a knife with them 😁

 

Seriously, if you don't find enough honey in the early game or are not good at fencing with zombies the spear is surely the best melee weapon in the game

 

 

You can break off throwing if you change to another belt slot. Same for bows

yeah but that doesnt allow me to hit a foe with a power attack without the risk of completely losing my spear if i miss

22 hours ago, ricp said:

 

I am guessing that is the perception build you were talking about in the other thread. I just find it far too glitchy and awkward to use, less intuitive and time consuming compared to other weapons, then you have the issue of collecting the spear you threw if power attacks are your thing. Plus I put as few points into perception as I possibly can.

 

I've not specced into it, or the stun baton for that matter, as to me these are weapons designed to kill you, not the zombies! Perhaps that's my issue, maybe if I conga lined the zombies then was able to take out two or three in a row with the spear then perhaps I might be interested.

 

Yeah it was. You dont need to use the power attack, i do most of my poaching using left click. The range is very helpful for solo play to keep distance and backpedal. Headshots tend to stun enemies so its generally pretty safe.

I tend to only use power attacks for downed enemies, but i have been trying to use it more frequently in general and it does the job very well.

Spears are great for cheesing enemies too, like poking them through small gaps or from roof tops where they cant get you back.

 

Stun baton is garbage without perks or mods, its a mid game weapon designed for late game, but once you get all of the bonuses for it it can be very formidable. Its just too unreliable early game though imo, low base damage, range and only really works with the stun, and at that point other weapons would have killed it already. With the candy, books and mods it just blows up crowds. Might be worth toying with it in a cheat game just to see its potential.

[Crater Creator]

Nobody asked, but... after reading this thread I was starting to question my assumption that bows did more damage with longer aiming.  I just turned on debug info and confirmed that, thankfully, they do.

[theFlu]

2 hours ago, Crater Creator said:

I just turned on debug info and confirmed that, thankfully, they do.

Heh, thanks for that, but of course I had to hop in an test for myself

Confirmed, and it looks like the damage is directly proportional to the "charging" bar (at least while skill-less). So if you've filled 10% of the bar, you'll do 10% of the damage. No extra damage for time after 100%.

[ricp]

5 hours ago, bloodmoth13 said:

tun baton is garbage without perks or mods, its a mid game weapon designed for late game, but once you get all of the bonuses for it it can be very formidable. Its just too unreliable early game though imo, low base damage, range and only really works with the stun, and at that point other weapons would have killed it already. With the candy, books and mods it just blows up crowds. Might be worth toying with it in a cheat game just to see its potential.

 

Yeah, I mean I have specced into it once, just to see what a top tier and modded baton would be like. It's, as you point out, almost night and day in terms of comparison. What I would say though is other melee weapons with similar quality and mods would return a "better damage value".

[Urban Blackbear]

Spears are a little lackluster against unarmored zeds (a level 2 stone Spear is worse damage-wise than a level 1 Wooden Club) but make up for it against harder targets with the 15% penetration. That used to be granted by the Penetrator perk but Spears were taken off it and just given the bonus directly in A20.

Edited January 3, 2022 by Urban Blackbear (see edit history)

[seagas]

I would use a spear, early game, as a second melee weapon, it has long reach, nice for hitting zombies through obstacles. It also makes a great hidden closet/door openingner, instead of using your few precious arrows early game, throw the spear to open it. And you always recover the spear afterwards.

[meganoth]

On 1/2/2022 at 1:42 PM, theFlu said:

I did read the rest, but I think you have an unreasonable amount of caveats here to make the case. Stone sledge outperforms most if not all spears in any case you want to be meleeing while not getting hit. Spear does have the "give away my weapon"-option, but then you'll need another weapon for backup - so we can freely compare to a pair of weapons; and the starter bow will be miles easier to maintain distance with.

 

Stone sledge is very very slow, which works 4 times out of 5 much easier and faster than the spear. But that 5th time it doesn't work as you miss the zombie and the zombie is enraged and runnning at you. Remember I am talking about novice players who don't have learned the timing and distances yet.

While the spear not hitting a zombie means that you can do the next attack almost immediately while correcting your mistake (either too far away or not hitting in the right spot). 

 

If the novice user is foolish enough to think he can powerattack with the spear while he is still swimming in unknown waters and having no alternative to switch to then yes, he's got new problems on his hand.

 

Bow as secondary weapon isn't a bad idea but the ammo usage should not be underestimated. The early game method of finding nests is not going to supply a novice with enough feathers to use the bow consistently as a substitute melee weapon to keep zombies consistently out of range and the club as secondary. An experienced user would know ways but it takes a lot of time.

 

 

On 1/2/2022 at 1:42 PM, theFlu said:

 

Nothing against the spear, it's a fun little gadget, but it's not quite on par with most others.

 

Are you talking about the general case. Sure, I agree.

 

5 hours ago, Crater Creator said:

Nobody asked, but... after reading this thread I was starting to question my assumption that bows did more damage with longer aiming.  I just turned on debug info and confirmed that, thankfully, they do.

 

Surprising that bow and spear use the same mechanic but work differently, good to know.

 

From a balance standpoint this is a positive thing i think, but the players should probably be made aware of it.