Crucible at INT 10 is Too High

[adaemus]

I'm a builder. I fully understand that A18 has shifted the gameplay over to more of a scavenging type of gameplay and I'm perfectly okay with that. I'm also fully okay that the cost of building has gone up and it's taking me longer to get my defenses in place.

 

Yesterday though I found the first change that has me shaking my head. I use blade traps as an integral part of my mid-game base setup. I unlocked Advanced Engineering 3 and as I start looking at the trap recipes I see that blade traps require Forged Steel. "Okay, no problem, I surely also just unlocked the crucible recipe" I think to myself but no I did not. To unlock the crucible recipe requires INT 10 and Advanced Engineering 5. That's fully 12 levels above the point where I first get a recipe that requires Forged Steel. TWELVE LEVELS in the now much slower leveling pace of A18.

 

I get it. I can find a crucible in random loot. I can find a crucible schematic in loot. I can try and find a trader that has either of these. I can even loot or buy Forged Steel and try to save up enough to make the blade traps and have enough on hand to repair them. I GET IT, this is now a game about scavenging.

 

But INT 10 and Advanced Engineering 5 is too high. This is higher than in any previous Alpha. Can we talk about lowering this to INT 8 and Advanced Engineering 4 at a minimum. Lowering it to Advanced Engineering 3, where Forged Steel is first needed for recipes, would be even better of course but that's probably pushing my luck.

 

Thanks for the Consideration.

[Ramethzer0]

I noticed this the other night on my INT build and I was instantly disappointed.

 

Level gates became stat gates now. I felt it was a little bit of a bait and switch, but certainly its better than both together.

INT 10 seems really high, especially if one considered there more than just blade traps that require forged steel.

 

Here is where I diverge from that though: Once you have common access to steel in a forge, you've definitely reached an end-game stage. Steel crafting might be TFP's version of the victory cigar. To me its up there in the same category as gyrocopters.

[adaemus]

I noticed this the other night on my INT build and I was instantly disappointed.

 

Level gates became stat gates now. I felt it was a little bit of a bait and switch, but certainly its better than both together.

INT 10 seems really high, especially if one considered there more than just blade traps that require forged steel.

 

Here is where I diverge from that though: Once you have common access to steel in a forge, you've definitely reached an end-game stage. Steel crafting might be TFP's version of the victory cigar. To me its up there in the same category as gyrocopters.

 

To make any weapon or tool that requires Forged Steel also requires "parts" for those items. This is a big change from previous Alphas and requires one to either loot or buy steel weapons/tools to scavenge them to create those parts (or buy the parts directly). Because of that I do not see that Forged Steel in and of itself makes one OP or will trivialize end-game content. I haven't looked at this exhaustively but the things you can make with Forged Steel that don't require "parts" is pretty limited (i.e., vehicles and blade traps).

[Hek Harris]

Yeah, even I don't care of being able to craft this or that and prefer to kneel and pray mother RNG, it seems illogical to not being able to craft silver ingots earlier for an intel guy. I don't choose the intel branch but after having found the crucible day 1 on my two last games, I can understand how exasperating it can be for a "crafter".

[Ramethzer0]

I can understand how exasperating it can be for a "crafter".

 

I've learned that being pure INT is actually non-essential in this game. INT doesn't make you a Crafter necessarily either. It adds mostly to your quality of life and convenience of making your own stations, which is a solid boon mind you. But, everyone has the ability to be a crafter if they get enough schematics. Most of the things I wish my INT builder actually could craft are items that are in other trees.

Pure INT builds do not give me the ability to craft t5 tools or weapons. Someone else has to do that for me.

 

INT builds are a 'Spirit of Co-operation' type thing, imo.

[Sjustus548]

With the Crucible at level 10 Int I didn't even bother trying to get it. I've just found some while looting or bought one from the trader.

[Hek Harris]

I've learned that being pure INT is actually non-essential in this game. INT doesn't make you a Crafter necessarily either.

That's why I put quotation marks. But intel is good to speed up crafting, no ? (I haven't tested this branch yet).

 

The thing is that this can be a very important branch in multiplayers games : it's the certainty of being able to build workstations, vehicles and electrical defenses without depending on luck. Solo, we have time and can wait to find / buy the schematics. In MP, it's another story.

[Limdood]

I agree somewhat.

 

Most of the complaints about the crucible being too high I brush off. You can get steel from loads of other sources. Seeking, stockpiling, and buying steel should be a thing you do if you hope to make things like steel weapons/tools/armor or vehicles...or you could find a crucible or crucible recipe. I think getting the crucible cheap and easy demeans that top level of crafting...

 

BUT, it is really ridiculous that SO MANY int-unlock recipes require steel FAR before they can make it. Change those recipes to iron, require a smaller amount of steel (so scavenging for it is more viable to build, say, a motorcycle, a truck, or several blade traps), make steel somewhat more plentiful in certain wrenchable items (getting 1-3 steel bars from wrenching a car...or 5 from a car, but only the "full health" cars. Adding 0-1 steel from stoves and fridges, that kind of thing), or make crucible unlock significantly earlier.

 

I think one of those really needs to happen - unlocking recipes where you need a bulk amount of something you cannot generate in bulk amounts is incredibly frustrating. it turns people off to the game, or at least the alpha. Of all of those, I think the "add more wrenchable/lootable/findable steel" is definitely the best one, followed by cheaper recipes, then swapping lower recipes to iron, and the "make crucible unlock earlier" is probably the worst.

[Synvastian]

They should switch it to Int 8 at Perk 4, but...as trade off, everything worthwhile in 3 that requires steel, moves to perk 4/5

 

but, to be fair, I don't spec into INT anymore...Schematics and traders fill out what I need just fine so far recently

[adaemus]

I agree that INT 6, Perk 3 is too low (hey a crafter/builder can dream) but INT 8, Perk 4 isn't exactly cheap or easy. It takes 13 points of investment to reach that level. That's a good amount of investment to create vehicles and blade traps.

 

Steel weapons/tools still require "parts" to create so having Forged Steel in and of itself is not OP. Besides you still need to find the schematic for the particular steel weapon/tool you want to create since those can't be unlocked via perks.

[Viktoriusiii]

I agree that INT 6, Perk 3 is too low (hey a crafter/builder can dream) but INT 8, Perk 4 isn't exactly cheap or easy. It takes 13 points of investment to reach that level. That's a good amount of investment to create vehicles and blade traps.

 

Steel weapons/tools still require "parts" to create so having Forged Steel in and of itself is not OP. Besides you still need to find the schematic for the particular steel weapon/tool you want to create since those can't be unlocked via perks.

 

its honestly ridicoulus... but they want it that way... be happy, that you can find them and traders have a good bulk as well... thats the only makeshift patch for this issue rn

[adaemus]

its honestly ridicoulus... but they want it that way... be happy, that you can find them and traders have a good bulk as well... thats the only makeshift patch for this issue rn

 

Oh, I have absolutely no issue with "parts" being required or steel weapons/tools being unlocked by schematics only. I really like that change actually.

 

I'm just looking for Forged Steel to be available via the Perk slightly earlier than what it is currently.

[Jugginator]

Yeah I can get behind this being changed. Not too much but a little bit lower would definitely help. In my last run it wasn't until day 42 or 43 before I found a crucible schematic at the trader. I could have specced purely into INT, but that would have eaten all my skill points up. Understandable kinda for co-op, but for solo that really stinks. I also feel steel tool and baseball bat parts (I need wood AND bat parts? what even are bat parts lol) are silly too. Make steel tools cost a hella lot of steel / mechanical parts / etc. in trade. Bat part really doesn't bother me, but I just find it silly.

[Viktoriusiii]

but... you can make steel as soon as you have the crucible...

so if you buy it day 1 you have steel day 1, dont you? :-?

[Darthjake]

I've found more crucibles, and crucible schematics well before Int 10, hell before Int 5 to be honest.

 

I've built multiple bicycles and motorcycles with no points in grease monkey.

 

Think outside the stat box, people.

[Jugginator]

but... you can make steel as soon as you have the crucible...

so if you buy it day 1 you have steel day 1, dont you? :-?

 

I checked all my traders every day on my recent run and hit every bookshelf I could find, can't buy one if the traders don't sell them. It wasn't till after day 40 when I finally got one for sale.

 

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I've found more crucibles, and crucible schematics well before Int 10, hell before Int 5 to be honest.

 

I've built multiple bicycles and motorcycles with no points in grease monkey.

 

Think outside the stat box, people.

 

Ah so everyone is just bad players for not having better RNG? Lol. That's the call for the thread, some people don't get lucky with one exact schematic... that's kinda what is in question: if you don't get lucky, you gotta go all the way to Int 10 to get the steel lol

[Viktoriusiii]

I checked all my traders every day on my recent run and hit every bookshelf I could find, can't buy one if the traders don't sell them. It wasn't till after day 40 when I finally got one for sale.

 

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Ah so everyone is just bad players for not having better RNG? Lol. That's the call for the thread, some people don't get lucky with one exact schematic... that's kinda what is in question: if you don't get lucky, you gotta go all the way to Int 10 to get the steel lol

 

I mean... no you aren't bad. But I get where they are coming from... they want to give a sensible and varied experience (not every time you hit lvl 30 you will have good armor or all the right tools or whatever)

And lets be honest: What can steel do? Some steel arrowheads , some advanced crafting and steel blocks... most stuff is done with iron.

I like that sometimes you have to make sacrifices. I went in the Int tree, but never bought the vehicle perk, because i didnt want to throw away perks... but I just didnt find the schematic for it so at level 45 I simply bought the perk and will now simply buy the forgetin elixir and all will be dandy.

You have way better weapons, but no steel... someone who perked into it might still have a lvl 3 bow but steel tips...

 

 

Yeah lvl 10 is a bit much. But we need this slowing down of progression in a way.

[Jugginator]

Well, yeah, but don't forget some folks like to play on rather difficult settings, and that steel becomes vital once you get near 200 gamestage and you're still stuck in the iron age lol. Not calling it for level 4 INT but level 10 is a bit much. Either that or add some sort of a "pitty roll" that keeps track of how many times you looted something that should spawn schematics on a regular basis to a balanced number and increase odds. Especially when playing on no loot respawns and you just can't get a trader to sell one to you ever. Same can be said for getting lucky on day 1-21 or something, making it harder to get yet add a pitty roll-check that can't be reached reasonably until mid-game can solve both balances. Mayhaps in combo with like int 7 - something reachable but not too reachable.

[Hek Harris]

I need wood AND bat parts? what even are bat parts lol

 

[Viktoriusiii]

Well, yeah, but don't forget some folks like to play on rather difficult settings, and that steel becomes vital once you get near 200 gamestage and you're still stuck in the iron age lol. Not calling it for level 4 INT but level 10 is a bit much. Either that or add some sort of a "pitty roll" that keeps track of how many times you looted something that should spawn schematics on a regular basis to a balanced number and increase odds. Especially when playing on no loot respawns and you just can't get a trader to sell one to you ever. Same can be said for getting lucky on day 1-21 or something, making it harder to get yet add a pitty roll-check that can't be reached reasonably until mid-game can solve both balances. Mayhaps in combo with like int 7 - something reachable but not too reachable.

 

Yes and no. I play on the highest difficulty. And if you can not live without steel (you can) then you will need to sacrifice perks.

I understand you and also think that 10 is a bit high... but they want that steel to feel like endgame content...

Maybe 10 is set too high... but what can you put on lvl 10 int instead? There is nothing else that would warrant such a massive investment...

[Synvastian]

well, I would say bat parts are the flexible/weighted core, maybe something like epoxy to harden the exterior, and finally a sandblock, so we get that perfect shape for hitting baseba...heads...we hit heads...

 

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Yes and no. I play on the highest difficulty. And if you can not live without steel (you can) then you will need to sacrifice perks.

I understand you and also think that 10 is a bit high... but they want that steel to feel like endgame content...

Maybe 10 is set too high... but what can you put on lvl 10 int instead? There is nothing else that would warrant such a massive investment...

 

all the traps that require steel? (just an idea, I don't use INT, traders and scavenging for me so far)

[Hek Harris]

I asked Madmole a few days ago if it would be possible that the traders ALWAYS have in stock some essential items (workstations, crucible, for example). Very high prices of course. So, we still have the choice : pay a fortune or continue seeking. He didn't sound ok.

 

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but they want that steel to feel like endgame content...

Steel can't be endgame content as long as you can find a schematic day one.

[Jugginator]

Yes and no. I play on the highest difficulty. And if you can not live without steel (you can) then you will need to sacrifice perks.

I understand you and also think that 10 is a bit high... but they want that steel to feel like endgame content...

Maybe 10 is set too high... but what can you put on lvl 10 int instead? There is nothing else that would warrant such a massive investment...

 

Sure early and mid game hardest difficulty you don't need steel, but once you've reached 200+ gamestage with 16+ spawning horde night every night all on nightmare speed, I mean, it's kinda needed for some things lol unless you build some cheese base or something. On the same side, if one hasn't been lucky then are we really gonna force someone to go almost pure intellect? You dont have to have Int 10 as end game, int 7/8 is still end game since Int doesn't really do anything for combat. There are other things, like crafting more faster with less resources, etc. Plenty of stuff. Make steel stuff cost a lot more. Something other than "RNG or spec fully into int" Lots of fun stuff is with steel too, don't forget

 

And lmao Hek. Too good.

[theFlu]

Imma just going to point out that the Nerdy classes got their +1 INT back, so the requirement for 10 is effectively 9. Still high, but 3 points is 3 points.. would you buy 3 skill points for 2k? I thought you would.

 

Now, I don't really like the INT 10 lock either, would rather have some "other rarities" at 10 and the basic mats a little lower. Then again, mass producing steel is the last large durability hike for horde bases, so it Should be an end game feature. I guess I kind of understand how they ended up with this.

 

I would be up for adding some more findable Steel in the world, absolutely. Although it is pretty abundant with safes etc everywhere, just a pain to get..

[Viktoriusiii]

On the same side, if one hasn't been lucky then are we really gonna force someone to go almost pure intellect? You dont have to have Int 10 as end game, int 7/8 is still end game since Int doesn't really do anything for combat.

 

I am pure intellect... and I can tell you that two junk turrets with mods are a gift from heaven.

You cant have better cc. If oyu then specc 4-5 into a dps weapon, you are going to have a way easier time.

 

But yeah as I said... not totally agreeing with int 10... but I understand where they are coming from.

 

 

 

And yes it is end game. You can find it d1. But that is why gameplay is varied. And that is actually a good thing.

Either play like rambo with 40 perks in fighting perks and risk not having the ressources and schematics that matter, or go half and half or even full intellect until you have all that you need and then relearn all the stuff.

 

I agree it shouldnt be this high, but until there is something that comes by that is even better than steel (some carbonated military fibers or something, there needs to be an endgame ressource and a reward for speccing into Int 10.