Alpha 18 Dev Diary!!

[Gareee]

But it does cut out what once was a more robust and enjoyable process (for those of us who like that sort of thing).

 

As long as they add new complex game play systems like mods and books, I'm fine loosing things like raw iron smelting.

 

Do we still get the same amount of iron mining, since smelting gave us a larger net yield?

 

Also, it seems a LOT of old pois are gone missing in a18... the campsites in the wilderness and the cave pois for instance.

 

I'm seeing a lot more of the big shamway factory and the shotgun messiah though.. kind of like the old "city of radio towers" we used to have. I can't believe they are less of a system impact then the skyscrapers.

 

I know rwg is just really a first pass with the new system, but did it not include all the old pois as well as he new additions?

 

I'm also seeing like 3/4 of maps are now just rolling bumpy mountains that are hard to travel over, with vast areas with nothing of interest at all.

 

I know other subsystems have seen updates since a18 first dropped exp.. has there been any progress on rwg improvement in the last month?

[AtomicUs5000]

Crafters like the processes of refining and combining. We enjoy scrapping things into components and then using those components to create something new. We like harvesting raw resources and turning them into refined materials. We like having intermediate components that can be used for a variety of finished products.

 

Non-crafters see the process as a tedious waste of time. They just want the finished product and who cares if it takes one step or five? They would say, “Just make it one step so we can get to playing the actual game”.

 

I think that somewhere along the way the non-crafter way if seeing things won the day at TFP. I personally would have preferred changing all the other ores to be more like iron—with a raw version that must be refined to usable resources instead of the way they went.

 

But I also like building, killing, looting and exploring so glossing over crafting and making it more streamlined and abstract doesn’t kill the game for me. But it does cut out what once was a more robust and enjoyable process (for those of us who like that sort of thing).

 

There is always Space Engineers to scratch that crafting itch...

 

I'm the same. I enjoy every part of the game so one part of it outshining another is just fine by me. I especially like when this happens because one of those areas got more features. I especially dislike when this happens because things are removed without replacing with something better in the same category.

Setting aside how mining and crafting takes a small hit with this, I have a feeling that for the way I play the game, I am going to have some boring nights. A lot of people just carry on at night as if they would during the day, but I play dead is dead and I try to be as safe as I can. Night used to be sorting out the distribution of several points, sorting through parts to combine them and upgrade guns, and mining. My only options these days is to mine and even that got simplified.

 

Streamlining everything is great for the game. For balancing, for maintainability of the code, for augmenting the code with more functions. A18 makes huge strides in the fun factor involving character building and questing. However, all three things that the game is known for has lost some luster. Survival, Horde, Crafting. Many people say 7D2D has become more of a looter-shooter. I'm fine with that, just not at the expense of everything else.

[Roland]

Roland, I very much like crafting and assembling and combining. I'd be a fierge advocate for the return of gun parts for example, because the new method feels... abstract and lacks the fine-tuning the old system had.

 

That being said, those raw irons didn't provide any value. There were no recipes with them, and in the end the only thing that changes is the icon that you put in the forge.

 

I get that. Having that one step in there that is “useless” for anything other than being a step makes the mining and refining process less abstracted. Now it is more abstract. Some people will play this game and wish the devs would make crafting more on par with how it is in Space Engineers and others will say, Thank you for not making it like Space Engineers.

 

I’m not saying it’s bad design. I’m just saying I can understand the disappointment of people over what TFP has chosen to simplify and make more abstract.

[Locusta]

Where are you getting the ore that you don't immediately throw it in a forge or a chest? Like, I can understand having to decide whether to scrap a doorknob out in the field or saving it to get the full value when you get back to base. With iron ore, though, you would have been mining it (I assume intentionally), and probably near your base or an outpost. Most of what would be in your inventory at the time would be iron ore, rocks, and maybe some sand. When would you be needing to save space in your inventory by deciding whether to scrap it?

 

I’m mainly referring to the example of making turret ammunition from iron. The “old way” would be to smelt iron ore into iron and craft ammo from that. Without the scrapping penalty, you could essentially scrap iron ore into iron and make ammo immediately. Now, you don’t have to do any of that because you get iron straight away. It was never about saving space. It was about the process, choice and time management. It’s not something I’m going to go on and on about, but I still think it should be noteworthy that some people still think crafting is fun when it’s a bigger process.

 

 

Loc

[Gr.o.m.]

Lemme break it down to what it is. It's not about iron ore.

 

The ore removal is just yet another example of the dumbing down/simplification that people who have played the game for many alphas and enjoyed it, don't like.

 

...cue MM's "stick" comment.

 

Used to be we'd have to take wood to make sticks. Take rocks to make sharp rocks. Then and only then could we make arrows. Now it's punch a tree and a boulder, straight to making arrows. Seems insignificant and slight to you? Multiply that simplification over dozens of systems, and you have the current generic and boring crafting system, when we once had a complicated one that made you think and plan, and more importantly made you prepare.

 

"But newbies couldn't figure it out!". Um, then why do you have the fevered fan base that you have? Because newbies COULD figure it out. And they enjoyed it.

 

...we once had 19 biomes in the xmls. 19. Now we functionally have 3. And they cause a bigger fps drop than the 19.

 

Jesus, I was actually going to make a list of all the things we have lost, but what's the point. MM et al likes the for dummies version of the game, that's not going to change, so why bother.

 

Y'all have fun.

 

The removal of turning wood into sticks or small into sharp stones was good. I played with sharp stones and sticks and it was a boring menial task nothing else. For me it did not improve gameplay., but extending the grind into crafting.

 

I would love to see the return of the plains biome.

[meganoth]

The fundamental gameplay I’m referring to is choice. You said it yourself it’s “much easier” which removes choice and having to prioritize your crafting. Having “more scrap iron early game” also changes fundamental gameplay as you pointed out yourself. So while I appreciate your opinion, you kinda put your foot in your mouth.

 

I don’t feel my comments are over exaggerated knee jerk reactions either. I’m simply stating a point that I’m a fan of choice and hard decisions when it comes to gameplay. I’m not asking for over complication. I just don’t want things to get too streamlined where you don’t have to think about anything because there is only one way to do everything.

 

Edit: I didn’t realize that scrapping iron ore had no penalty anymore. That basically paved the way for the change, so I guess I’ve already lost the argument...

 

Even if scrapping had a penalty, I don't see any hard choice. Maybe you don't know that you simply can craft (scrap) iron out of the forge again, not only forged iron and steel. So once smelted the iron ore was as versatile as scrap iron.

[Gareee]

Lemme break it down to what it is. It's not about iron ore.

 

The ore removal is just yet another example of the dumbing down/simplification that people who have played the game for many alphas and enjoyed it, don't like.

 

...cue MM's "stick" comment.

 

Used to be we'd have to take wood to make sticks. Take rocks to make sharp rocks. Then and only then could we make arrows. Now it's punch a tree and a boulder, straight to making arrows. Seems insignificant and slight to you? Multiply that simplification over dozens of systems, and you have the current generic and boring crafting system, when we once had a complicated one that made you think and plan, and more importantly made you prepare.

 

"But newbies couldn't figure it out!". Um, then why do you have the fevered fan base that you have? Because newbies COULD figure it out. And they enjoyed it.

 

...we once had 19 biomes in the xmls. 19. Now we functionally have 3. And they cause a bigger fps drop than the 19.

 

Jesus, I was actually going to make a list of all the things we have lost, but what's the point. MM et al likes the for dummies version of the game, that's not going to change, so why bother.

 

Y'all have fun.

 

Hate to dog pile on, but I agree 100%. If (for example) new players can't figure out how to smelt iron ore, maybe they should stick to minecraft.

 

The current success of the game isn't because of the simplification, its because new random weapon stat, book, and mod systems are tight.

 

They are being expanded though at the sacrifice of over simplified crafting, which I'm not sure is a great direction.

 

I miss biome diversity a LOT, and what made the earlier struggle the most fun was jumping through those old crafting steps to achieve progress. Now people just run into any building, lure the zeds out, and frame hop up to loot rooms for the guns, ammo and armor.

 

If I want the dumbed down shorter borderlands or fortnite game exeriences, I play them. When I want a longer more satisfying game playthrough, we play 7 days.

 

But we are starting to loose a lot of that gameplay through too much simplification. (And this is NOT about just the loss of raw iron, its about the simplification or schematic gating of everything crafting wise. In all ou playthroughs, I've never seen for instance steel arrow schematics. So the archery weapon tree is pretty worthless mid to end game, because you can;t do enough stealth damage fast enough to keep up with tougher zeds.

 

(Try to stop a charging cop with iron arrows.)

 

Oddly, I've also STILL never seen one demolisher.

[madmole]

New experminetal b6 is out. Nice bug fixes and changes. Notably shotguns were buffed.

 

"Eating glass is more efficient, generating a death penalty of 25%". Not that I mind the change, but I doubt it will have a lasting effect since there are lots of other easy ways to kill yourself, for example standing in a spike trap.

 

That is probably Gazz's tricky way of saying the death penalty is 25% now, no matter how you die.

[Gareee]

Streamlining everything is great for the game. For balancing, for maintainability of the code, for augmenting the code with more functions. A18 makes huge strides in the fun factor involving character building and questing. However, all three things that the game is known for has lost some luster. Survival, Horde, Crafting. Many people say 7D2D has become more of a looter-shooter. I'm fine with that, just not at the expense of everything else.

 

Sadly that seems to be the current direction they are heading. They should just release a completely dumbed down fortnite/borderlands zombie looter shooter without any crafting as a separate easy game mode for beginners, and stop killing off crafting gameplay for the deeper survival game mode.

 

Nights are now just spent organizing the daily loot haul.

[madmole]

So there I was day 7-- lookin good... healthy... somewhat wealthy.... wise...? no..

I started back to camp to prep for the oncoming attack... excitedly I just started running... no bicycle yet due to harsh conditions/desert town...

 

so im running by a fortified camper.... didn't look around,... run over 3 mines...dead...

aww... man... dead is dead... time to start a new game. the zombies couldn't kill me but my lack of perception certainly did.

 

It's always a careless mistake.

[Locusta]

Even if scrapping had a penalty, I don't see any hard choice. Maybe you don't know that you simply can craft (scrap) iron out of the forge again, not only forged iron and steel. So once smelted the iron ore was as versatile as scrap iron.

 

The hard choice WAS do I tie up my forge making scrap iron from iron ore (to craft turret ammo for example) or do I make forged iron or iron bars (to base build)? Again, you actually had to smelt before getting scrap iron (unless you took the ore scrapping penalty, which I never did), now you don’t have to think about it. Make ammo and forge the rest at the same time.

 

 

Loc

[Kattla]

Removing iron ore !?? What's the next step ? Removing the hoe and definitely break the game ?

 

Removal of lead items other then pure lead and bullet tips.

Then removal of brass items like doorknobs and radiators, so they loot directly to scrapped brass.

 

edit: Think we'll get as far as getting cement mix directly from mining stone?

[meganoth]

I’m mainly referring to the example of making turret ammunition from iron. The “old way” would be to smelt iron ore into iron and craft ammo from that. Without the scrapping penalty, you could essentially scrap iron ore into iron and make ammo immediately. Now, you don’t have to do any of that because you get iron straight away. It was never about saving space. It was about the process, choice and time management. It’s not something I’m going to go on and on about, but I still think it should be noteworthy that some people still think crafting is fun when it’s a bigger process.

 

 

Loc

 

Bigger sure, but then also more interesting please. Make alloys out of x and y and have that as ingredient to a few recipes. Use gems for some recipes, the diamond-tipped mod is a good example. More of this please.

 

But don't waste tears on steps that don't generate choice but only grind.

[madmole]

You might be right. It has happened any time I tried to build a 4k map, with different names. I'll look into reporting since I like to help you guys get better.

 

UPDATINGTON: This time I have been moving my mouse around, so rather than freezing up the PC at

GENERATING DETAIL HEIGHT DATA
15%

it has now got to

GENERATING DETAIL HEIGHT DATA
83%

and been stuck there for 10+ minutes.

 

I was able to restart the computer, generate the map, freeze on loading in, restart again, and get into the game on prior attempts. This time I can probably just Alt+F4 and go back in to get it working. If not, I'll post a bug report for you lovely people. I appreciate that you lot took my swimming skill and other suggestions into consideration, so I'll help you out.

 

Also, game not responding to ALT+F4 atm since it's partially locked.

 

Post your log and the seed name so we can try to repro. Thanks, I like your new attitude

 

In the meantime you could try to start a dedi and generate the map with that. It is slower but maybe more reliable. It shouldn't freeze your machine either since its just a windowed app.

[Locusta]

Bigger sure, but then also more interesting please. Make alloys out of x and y and have that as ingredient to a few recipes. Use gems for some recipes, the diamond-tipped mod is a good example. More of this please.

 

But don't waste tears on steps that don't generate choice but only grind.

 

I’m not wasting tears because TFP haven’t been adding anything to the crafting side of things they are taking from. Otherwise I completely agree with you.

 

 

Loc

[meganoth]

That is probably Gazz's tricky way of saying the death penalty is 25% now, no matter how you die.

 

DAMN YOU GAZZ, I fell for it.

[madmole]

Or you can simply unload the mod in inventory and scrap the gun, like you guys do with Bullets, you unload bullets and then scrap gun. right? If not that is more sensible solution to me.

 

A gun could have 4 mods in it, and eject the mods on the ground if your inventory is full, and still scrap your perfect purple item. Sorry less sensible in every aspect. We've already landed on the best solution. Modded weapons are protected from the scrap function. Nobody wants to scrap a modded weapon.

[Laz Man]

Crafters like the processes of refining and combining. We enjoy scrapping things into components and then using those components to create something new. We like harvesting raw resources and turning them into refined materials. We like having intermediate components that can be used for a variety of finished products.

 

Non-crafters see the process as a tedious waste of time. They just want the finished product and who cares if it takes one step or five? They would say, “Just make it one step so we can get to playing the actual game”.

 

I think that somewhere along the way the non-crafter way if seeing things won the day at TFP. I personally would have preferred changing all the other ores to be more like iron—with a raw version that must be refined to usable resources instead of the way they went.

 

But I also like building, killing, looting and exploring so glossing over crafting and making it more streamlined and abstract doesn’t kill the game for me. But it does cut out what once was a more robust and enjoyable process (for those of us who like that sort of thing).

 

There is always Space Engineers to scratch that crafting itch...

 

Well said. I think we can find a good compromise somewhere in between. Let's hope the devs continue to throw crafters more love with each and every update.

 

For me, the iron ore change doesnt mean that much to me as it was inconsistent with the other minerals. Now if there was an actual use for the ore aside from smelting, perhaps I would see things differently.

[Kattla]

A gun could have 4 mods in it, and eject the mods on the ground if your inventory is full, and still scrap your perfect purple item. Sorry less sensible in every aspect. We've already landed on the best solution. Modded weapons are protected from the scrap function. Nobody wants to scrap a modded weapon.

 

Lend me a modded weapon, and we'll see about that...

[madmole]

Did you actually play a game with shotguns ? Not trying to discredit your knowledge but my perception of your theory and the feel I get in practice when I play my shotgun guy are worlds apart. The base double barrel is hands down the most underwhelming gun in the game even when perked into.

 

My biggest gripe with the double barrel isn't even the damage in itself, but its effective range coupled with its 2 bullet mag size, making every missed shot a troublesome situation and not providing much towards dealing with multiple foes at close-combat. If we're talking about a single zombie in a hallway it's doing fine, but then again my sledgehammer does just fine in that situation aswell and I don't need to spend the ammo. For those "oh s***!" moments, it's all good if it's a single animal or whatever (and provided you don't miss), but send a pack of wolves and you're in a world of hurt, whereas a simple unmodded pistol with no perks can keep them at bay with a single mag no problem. There's just no reason risking to play with 2 bullets in your mag that provide nothing specific when you can have 15.

BTW the knockdown of a double barrel shot is definitely not 100%.

 

I understand you stated that the slugs fill the gap of effective range. In practice though, you probably can't craft slugs when you're still stuck with the double barrel, because it's precisely an early-mid game weapon and you either don't have the schematic for slugs yet or you can't expand all those ressources needed for making a decent amount of them. Let's just nerf the wooden bow into the ground and tell people to craft steel arrows so that it does its job, and see how the community reacts. It's effectively the same argument.

 

The pistol, the mag, the AK, they all effectively work at close and midrange. The sniper is subpar at close range but excels at long range. The double barrel just fails at doing its job in its own niche.

Gazz sits behind spreadsheets and curses at me in German or in poorly constructed English arguments I play the game and say more brains or less brains. Anyhow I am committed to keep playing the game so eventually I'll do a shotty build again and get him the right feedback. It won't kill you to pack a pistol or ak on your belt in the mean time when you just have a db, or switch items during reload and sprint away, reload, re engage.

[madmole]

@Devs

Now that we have shape menu for building block, can that be expanded to basic electrical things (like relays/switches etc)?

 

It is really easy and fun to do electrical stuff in creative- and god mode because you dont have to worry about how many things you need, just take a whole stack. But in survival these do feel like the pre a18 building blocks. Million different things and in a tight budget either craft one by one and always be waiting or craft a stack of them and end up not using all of them, wasting resources. It was a pain in the as to run between an unfinished horde base and the main base where are all the recourses and crafting stations

 

Not a bad idea, although the recipe would have to be identical for each item. I'm not sure what balance implications that would have.

[Semper Fidelis]

I am having a great time playing 7dtd and RWG map.

FANTASTIC!

I have only survived two horde nights and moving to Day 35.

 

 

Just a note @Gaz, not sure this is intended or bug, but Iron Ore turns into scrap metal.

 

This happened in Experimental 18.6...

Also, I had a couple of items in my storage chests turn to big "?" marks, so scrapped them as I didn't know what they were anyway.

 

Lastly when looking at the Steel Javelin book it talks about the shotty.

 

Semper Fi

[madmole]

New experimental, new, fresh game and hooboy what a start i had.

 

Settings are default difficulty, 120min days, marked airdrops. RWG 8k generated by nitrogen.

 

Spawned in the forest. After the initial gathering, i started to head out towards the trader. First entity i encouter is a direwolf! RUN! Marked it on the map, for future meat.

 

After that all went well until i saw dead trees in the distance, oh crap, i gotta go trough wasteland, oh well, challenge is a challenge, so i'll take it! Got to the edge of wasteland and in the distance i saw that the forest biome continues, yay! Sneaking like a snake trough the wasteland, carefully scouting for landmines, zombiebears and whatnot, i spotted a dog. I'm not afraid of them, until they jump on me. Sneak attack with bow, dog runs. But then i mess up and everything started to go downhill. I accidentally scrolled one too far from my stone sledge and started drinking that one water i had in my hotbar, mistake. Dog came and bite me couple of times, while i was calmly drinking my water. Finally i was able to switch to sledge. One powerattack to the mutt's head and it exploded. Whew, i'm safe! Or that's what i thought....

 

I had missed that 3 vultures were circling me and that dog had nibbled my healt low enough for them to start attacking. First vulture made me bleed, killed it, then quick bandage and off to dispatch the other two. Waited for awhile so the health regen'd back to near full and continued towards the forest where i got safely. At the edge, there was a military POI. First though, landmines, be careful! I thought i was, while sprinting, until i heard faint *click*......KABOOM! FFFFuuuuuuu.....dge. 8 health left, thank god those mines has a delay now! It was so well hidden in the forest drass that i completely missed it.

 

300M left to the trader, now i can see it in the distance! Sprinting on and then one....more....challenge. A fricking bear, right next to the trader... Luckily, there was this one zombie, which distracted it just enough for me to get a SS and to get in the safety of the trader. Trader had only working workbench, no schematics in any of the broken ones.

 

Now, here i am, shivering with my primitive bow and 4 stone arrows, thinking "what would jesus do?" while bear bangs the front door of the trader...[ATTACH=CONFIG]30410[/ATTACH]

 

Awesome story. Surviving by the skin of your teeth always delivers in this game somehow.

[Adam the Waster]

Awesome story. Surviving by the skin of your teeth always delivers in this game somehow.

 

until you hear a vulture when your low on HP and he's looking at you like a snack

[madmole]

Madmole, you didn't tell me anything about this

 

https://7daystodie.com/forums/showthread.php?111778-Alpha-18-Dev-Diary!!&p=1055831#post1055831

 

No need to repost, I deliberately did not reply.