Royal Deluxe Posted February 9, 2019 Author Share Posted February 9, 2019 Simple example, week 2, i drive arround the map and i have hunger/thirst what chance is higher A: That i spend some (of the many i have) coins in a Vending machine and have food and drinks B: I make me a Forge, make me a cooking pot, make me some glasses, hunt a animal, search water, and cook me a meal with drinks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maynard69 Posted February 9, 2019 Share Posted February 9, 2019 Simple example, week 2, i drive arround the map and i have hunger/thirst what chance is higher A: That i spend some (of the many i have) coins in a Vending machine and have food and drinks B: I make me a Forge, make me a cooking pot, make me some glasses, hunt a animal, search water, and cook me a meal with drinks Right because cooking pots are so rare, you need a forge to get one. And you have to purposefully hunt not just stop your vehicle and shoot an arrow every once in a while when you hear one I know sarcasm doesn't convey well through typing but if you cant tell, this is sarcasm. (having too many coins to not need to play the game is why it got nerfed btw) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asmosnuts Posted February 9, 2019 Share Posted February 9, 2019 Have never used traders and never needed them ,so a coin nerf is no biggie. You can easily get all you need without ever going near a trader. Traipsing 3-5km to make a few coins to buy stuff you find anyway holds no great appeal(for me) . It shouldnt be easy to get all these things, if only to avoid the cries of "bored after day blah!". Its about survival and scavenging and making the most of whatever situation you find yourself in. Farmers, builders, nomads all play in different ways and we all have to adapt to changes in game constantly. Over ,under ,around ,or through theres always a way to be found. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghostlight Posted February 9, 2019 Share Posted February 9, 2019 I use them for Iron/Steel tools and nice early game boosts then that's it. Probably rarely visit them again till late game for bullets ofc. I agree with the above why would you live on anything other than Bacon and Eggs. They are so plentiful. And Red Tea is awesome. Why would you ever drink water? One point in this perk completely removes any need to put points into Slow Metabolism. Now that one is a wasted point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Royal Deluxe Posted February 9, 2019 Author Share Posted February 9, 2019 Please understand me right. The mood of the topic was not really serious, its not so that i sit here crying in front of my PC. But as we all know, somewone would have assumed that, so or so. Its simply so that you can play the game on many different ways. And in a few dozend games i played in a17 i had only 3 Gardens and i can only remember one case i learned cooking. Simply because it made no sense for my gamestyle. If Cooking is really a MUST HAVE, and it is no kind of Gate,.... well then this perk should be removed completely. Because it make no sense. But thats not how i perceive it currently. As i said, wrenching cars for food the first days work in my current game. In a game without a town next to a trader it would maybe not work. For this case i think we need a moneymaker for people who dont want to perk cooking. And there i see not much options * M̶a̶k̶e̶ ̶r̶a̶w̶ ̶e̶g̶g̶s̶ ̶f̶a̶r̶ ̶m̶o̶r̶e̶ ̶e̶x̶p̶e̶n̶s̶e̶ ̶s̶o̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶y̶ ̶c̶a̶n̶ ̶b̶e̶ ̶u̶s̶e̶d̶ ̶a̶s̶ ̶t̶r̶a̶d̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶g̶o̶o̶d̶ ... During i wrote this post here i came to the conclusion that the best sollution is simply to add money to the trash bags. So much that if you loot all bags on a average tour you have so moch money that you can buy enough food and water. And a bit more in the Registers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BodyBagger Posted February 9, 2019 Share Posted February 9, 2019 maybe you can form a support group or something? omg... Lmao.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maynard69 Posted February 9, 2019 Share Posted February 9, 2019 -snip- If Cooking is really a MUST HAVE, and it is no kind of Gate,.... well then this perk should be removed completely. Because it make no sense. -snip_ During i wrote this post here i came to the conclusion that the best sollution is simply to add money to the trash bags. So much that if you loot all bags on a average tour you have so moch money that you can buy enough food and water. And a bit more in Register Nobody saying cooking tree is must have. I was just saying 1 point (1 skillpoint!) is so worth it, unless bartering is just so OP that you have so much money you cant spend it all. I suspect it is being nerfed for this exact reason, it was too easy to just bypass much of the game (hunting, farming, gathering) completely just by becoming a millionaire with little effort. Yes you are right that when bartering is OPest thing you can do for items and xp then yes there is no need for spending that 1 point in cooking. But if you play normally and not totally abuse the trader 1 point in cooking a no-brainer. I dont agree at all that player should be able to thrive on food from dukes from day 1. I think hunger starting out should be more punishing then it is, not super easy just find a sink and a trader and you eat forever. Economy should be to where the food is there in an emergency but not worth it to live off the machine. (you will need to money for other things) At that point it isnt cooking skill that should be removed, just remove the entire eating/hunger feature completely because there is no reason for it. It is just fluff if trading is all you need to do for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Royal Deluxe Posted February 9, 2019 Author Share Posted February 9, 2019 I guess i try the next days a small modlet. If it is like i imagine it a normal player would find not much more coins. Only if a player focus on coins i think he should be able to get find enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghostlight Posted February 9, 2019 Share Posted February 9, 2019 I dont agree at all that player should be able to thrive on food from dukes from day 1. I think the player should absolutely be able to do this. Two words: opportunity cost. If a player wants to waste dukes on food he is missing out on some really great early game boosts that could have been bought instead (cheap mods for example) . It's a hugely inefficient way to feed yourself. Economy should be to where the food is there in an emergency but not worth it to live off the machine. (you will need to money for other things) That is absolutely where the game is right now. Buying food is a huge waste. I think I have done it once ever in A17, and that was when I lost my entire food chest through stupidity and was a tiny bit desperate. Never felt the need at any other time. It's emergencies only as far as I am concerned. Far too many important things to buy early game before I'd waste dukes on food. Don't under-estimate Red Tea from Master Chef 1. It reduces your max stamina loss considerably, so in a round about way you would still profit as you'd need to eat a lot less. You really want to make the switch from Water to Red Tea as early as possible as it will really snowball for you, however you chose to feed yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PPanda0421 Posted February 9, 2019 Share Posted February 9, 2019 Please understand me right. The mood of the topic was not really serious, its not so that i sit here crying in front of my PC. But as we all know, somewone would have assumed that, so or so. Its simply so that you can play the game on many different ways. And in a few dozend games i played in a17 i had only 3 Gardens and i can only remember one case i learned cooking. Simply because it made no sense for my gamestyle. If Cooking is really a MUST HAVE, and it is no kind of Gate,.... well then this perk should be removed completely. Because it make no sense. But thats not how i perceive it currently. As i said, wrenching cars for food the first days work in my current game. In a game without a town next to a trader it would maybe not work. For this case i think we need a moneymaker for people who dont want to perk cooking. And there i see not much options * M̶a̶k̶e̶ ̶r̶a̶w̶ ̶e̶g̶g̶s̶ ̶f̶a̶r̶ ̶m̶o̶r̶e̶ ̶e̶x̶p̶e̶n̶s̶e̶ ̶s̶o̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶y̶ ̶c̶a̶n̶ ̶b̶e̶ ̶u̶s̶e̶d̶ ̶a̶s̶ ̶t̶r̶a̶d̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶g̶o̶o̶d̶ ... During i wrote this post here i came to the conclusion that the best sollution is simply to add money to the trash bags. So much that if you loot all bags on a average tour you have so moch money that you can buy enough food and water. And a bit more in the Registers. So it simply boils down to gamestyle. You prefer eating canned food using the money you get buying and selling things. That's fine. You can play however you like in your game. The problem is when TFP nerfs something or makes changes to the game that makes your playstyle more difficult which is what we're seeing now with traders. In that case you either have to work smarter/harder or change your playstyle just a tad. Another option is to complain to the TFP till the cows come home hoping they undo those changes or at least tweak them more in your favor. Most of us have already adapted from the change from a16.x to a17.x and I'm pretty sure you've adapted as well. So why not use 1 or 2 skill points to cooking? You can say it's for backup/emergencies. TFP purposedly added that feature so it is not considered cheating. I always get my cooking to at least level 2 (or the level that allows you to make stews). Once you get a farm with mushrooms, corn and potatoes you're pretty much set for the remainder of the game since you can make vegetable stew with those veggies (and water). In my world I have a huge farm which produces a full stack of shrooms, corn and potatoes every 3 days (based on 1 hour days). My farm also produces all the other farmable things as well but that's besides the point. The point is the cooking perk is very useful when you have no money and it is especially useful if you want to focus on everything else other than food. Cooking is not a MUST HAVE but it is very useful. This applies to the other skills as well to make your life easier. For example, you don't need the bartering perk but it reduces/raises price to benefit and at higher level gives you access to more goods to buy. You could do it the old fashion by finding them, killing zombies or through air drops but why make your life harder when the game gives an option to make things easier. This is the case with the cooking perk. I do agree traders needed tweaking as I have over 300K in dukes and about 20 tier 6 solar cells just sitting around doing nothing. In 17.1 they cost 44K to 60K to purchase. I made soo much money by selling iron/steel armor. If you still want to play the same gamestyle then I suggest doing more trader quests. PS - I collect canned food just for the fun of it to see how many I can get. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asmosnuts Posted February 9, 2019 Share Posted February 9, 2019 cooking pot is easy to find, 1 point in masterchef gives red tea/bacon and eggs. There is always at least 1 animal near start point and you never need anything else. Farm/hunt/scavenge gives all the food you ever need. Rabbits and chickens are plentiful and easy to get, pigs are everywhere. Bears and wolves are a bonus and plenty of bones for glue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quyxkh Posted February 9, 2019 Share Posted February 9, 2019 If Cooking is really a MUST HAVE, and it is no kind of Gate,.... well then this perk should be removed completely. wtf? No, there should be early "pick me, duh"s too, unless TFP wants to separate ~character class picking~ and intro/tutorial perks from the stuff you pursue later into their own dialogs. Is it really so offensive that your first game day and week are basically a tutorial you repeat until you understand the tradeoffs in the available perks, and there are some really obviously good things to pick so newbies can get used to the mechanics? If you don't want to buy all your food pre-prepared, somebody on the team should learn to cook. Is "duh" really too harsh a response to that? Maybe not everybody on the team needs it, is that really so difficult? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BioFringe Posted February 10, 2019 Share Posted February 10, 2019 1077 Hours A17 Damn man! Isn't that over 12 hours per day every day? Someone might need a breather Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maynard69 Posted February 10, 2019 Share Posted February 10, 2019 -snip- I agree about red tea, good stuff. When I said "not thrive on food from dukes" I meant more along the lines of buy all the food and still easily afford other starter stuff he might want. Then continue to live off the machine and easily buy everything else he wants or needs which was where we were at before 17.2. I think we are on the same page. The balance is better at least as far as I can tell, so far. Starting out, and perking for trading I was able to afford some decent stuff starter stuff, but had to work for it a bit and spend points which I see as pretty good balance wise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scyris Posted February 10, 2019 Share Posted February 10, 2019 Seeming every new version has had tweeks and changes to traders/economy, and the devs made a thread to get feedback on trader balance not long ago seems to me economy/trading is important to them. Looting has taken a hit, and is not as amazing as it once was. (its no longer required, no recipe books, nothing you can only loot and not craft, rarer high quality) With additions of quests, and eventually factions and NPCs I feel like traders will become a huge center piece, and looting will be mainly just for those rare legendary items we have yet to see (unless they fix things and give looting more purpose again) Manufacturing? for what purpose? the only things you need to craft in high numbers is ammo and building supplies. If you are manufacturing anything else its... here it comes.. to sell to trader. The game is a survival game, true. With RPG, tower defense, fps, horror, a lot of elements from all kinds of genres. People who dont like trading can simply not trade. Balance of it shouldn't concern them in any way. I agree with this guy ^ if you dont like how the trader is just don't use it in a17.1. I do feel they went a little to nuts on the price of things, everything seems worth less than half what it used to be just about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scyris Posted February 10, 2019 Share Posted February 10, 2019 I use them for Iron/Steel tools and nice early game boosts then that's it. Probably rarely visit them again till late game for bullets ofc. I agree with the above why would you live on anything other than Bacon and Eggs. They are so plentiful. And Red Tea is awesome. Why would you ever drink water? One point in this perk completely removes any need to put points into Slow Metabolism. Now that one is a wasted point. Thats about what I use traders for, to try to get early game iron or steel tools even tier 1 i'll buy even moreso if it has a few forged steel/iron so I can repair them. After that other than maybe food and ammo I rarely use them. Early game I might stick near a trader if it happens to have a forge in there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PPanda0421 Posted February 10, 2019 Share Posted February 10, 2019 I think the player should absolutely be able to do this. Two words: opportunity cost. If a player wants to waste dukes on food he is missing out on some really great early game boosts that could have been bought instead (cheap mods for example) . It's a hugely inefficient way to feed yourself. That is absolutely where the game is right now. Buying food is a huge waste. I think I have done it once ever in A17, and that was when I lost my entire food chest through stupidity and was a tiny bit desperate. Never felt the need at any other time. It's emergencies only as far as I am concerned. Far too many important things to buy early game before I'd waste dukes on food. Don't under-estimate Red Tea from Master Chef 1. It reduces your max stamina loss considerably, so in a round about way you would still profit as you'd need to eat a lot less. You really want to make the switch from Water to Red Tea as early as possible as it will really snowball for you, however you chose to feed yourself. I only buy food early when I don't have any healing items like first aid kits or first aid bandages. Eating some 'high end' food can heal up you nicely. I sometimes buy drinks so I can get the glass jar if for some reason I haven't found any. Other than that yes you're right that dukes should be spent on things that are useful to you in the long time. For instance the trader had a burning shaft mod early in the game. I spent all my time scavenging things to sell to buy it. That mod is still in my main melee weapon right now. Can you explain how the Red Tea reduces max stamina loss works? I have tons of it made but I usually drink yucca juice or the goldenrod. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PPanda0421 Posted February 10, 2019 Share Posted February 10, 2019 I agree with this guy ^ if you dont like how the trader is just don't use it in a17.1. I do feel they went a little to nuts on the price of things, everything seems worth less than half what it used to be just about. People who don't like the traders are free not to use them. However, for the ones that do use traders there needs to be balance so that when you trade you don't get OP too early. Getting OP too early usually results in a boring game. Yeah one steel armor usually sold for around 5K - 6k. Now one sells for 1k to 1.5k. Definitely > 70% reduction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Royal Deluxe Posted February 10, 2019 Author Share Posted February 10, 2019 i think on the long run the changes are good. All i consider is the question if a startgame on a more contryish Map is fair towards a player. I dont ask for MORE money for players in general. I ask the question how we can push the options to make some coins the first few days a bit without pushing the long term income greatly. No idea how you see this but i normally dont focus on trashbags and registers after day 7,14,48+ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zen37 Posted February 10, 2019 Share Posted February 10, 2019 I dont mind the price nerf but i got the problem with attributes balance. Intellect tree is already strong and now barter and cooking have even more value then before. Look at agillity tree and compare it to intellect .. no contest here. I feel we need perk balancing update next. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Royal Deluxe Posted February 10, 2019 Author Share Posted February 10, 2019 Damn man! Isn't that over 12 hours per day every day? Someone might need a breather - - - Updated - - - I dont mind the price nerf but i got the problem with attributes balance. Intellect tree is already strong and now barter and cooking have even more value then before. Look at agillity tree and compare it to intellect .. no contest here. I feel we need perk balancing update next. Really, for me Barter has far less Value. 25% more Money if you sell is something i am not even sure that it is worth its 5 Skillpoints In A17.1 the perk was so powerfull that i tried to sell nothing before i had at least level 4 in it. Now i really dont care. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghostlight Posted February 10, 2019 Share Posted February 10, 2019 Can you explain how the Red Tea reduces max stamina loss works? I have tons of it made but I usually drink yucca juice or the goldenrod. If you exert yourself (say mine all day), you will notice your max stamina drops by quite a lot, and you will need to eat to recover it. Compare this to a day where you do nothing and your max stamina will not drop at all and you will not need to eat at all. Red Tea reduces the amount of max stamina you lose on those busy days (by 15% I think) meaning you need less food to replenish it. Just for the record, I have never once put a point in Better Barter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghostlight Posted February 10, 2019 Share Posted February 10, 2019 I dont mind the price nerf but i got the problem with attributes balance. Intellect tree is already strong and now barter and cooking have even more value then before. Look at agillity tree and compare it to intellect .. no contest here. I feel we need perk balancing update next. I agree about the balance, but my take on the Intellect tree is very different. I think of it as the weakest tree. It doesn't help you survive combat, or explore, or travel or loot, or gather. At least early on in the game. That said, it is unfortunately the must-have tree early on. By level 20, the player will earn 23 points. Of those I feel at least 8 *MUST* go into Intellect (6 to get Int 5, 2 for Forge and Iron Tools, and 1 for Master Chef). If you do not spend those 8 points you are just gimping yourself for the early game, so there's basically no choice. That's 1/3 of your early points gone and you are not any better at actually existing in the world. Not good design. It's OK in a co-op situation as one player can take on all the crafting and "stay home" (or stay at the back in dangerous situations), but for solo play it is very inflexible and verges on punishing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RestInPieces Posted February 10, 2019 Share Posted February 10, 2019 - - - Updated - - - Really, for me Barter has far less Value. 25% more Money if you sell is something i am not even sure that it is worth its 5 Skillpoints In A17.1 the perk was so powerfull that i tried to sell nothing before i had at least level 4 in it. Now i really dont care. It's 25% if you sell and 50% if you buy. Also unlocks stash. Sounds pretty OP to me. I think it might even need a nerf! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Royal Deluxe Posted February 10, 2019 Author Share Posted February 10, 2019 It's 25% if you sell and 50% if you buy. Also unlocks stash. Sounds pretty OP to me. I think it might even need a nerf! Sure, it is allready nerfed into the ground, (and does that look like i encumber) The change was painfull enough and we can discuss if it was too strong (what is not what i say) Reducing the Perk again would be equal to remove the Traders completely. (I allready consider if i would again start a vanilla game as trader class) Thats why i ask only for a small (startgame aimed) moneymaker for people that start on a countryish map Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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