'Specialization' in single player

[Mosiah]

Hello. Let me just open this by stating that i love alpha 17 and it's new features. Except the progression in single player. The problem is, you can't REALLY specialize in an 1-2 atributes you like, you can't really play to way you would in a group, you are FORCED to go too deep intellect to have points for anything else. No matter what build i start in single player, by lvl 30 i have by far most of my points are in intellect, because there is no other way to survive as the game stage progresses.

 

When it's the day 84, the stone axe just doesn't cut it anymore, you just NEED the forge, you NEED better tools, more sophisticated traps and so on. And it's all intellect gated. Because, those zeds coming for you at the day (x*7) don't care about your sneaking level, or your ability to grow plants. It doesn't matter if you have +50 stamina or you're good in using armor, you need some freaking concrete blocks, blade traps, and a modded shotgun pointing at a vault door.

 

Could you guys, please, maybe make the most basic perks less expensive? Or at least move some stuff from intellect elsewhere?

[zen37]

Iron and Forge could be moved to Strenght. People usually need Sexual Tyr,Pack Mule early on . I never played with less then 5 strenght.

[apostrophe]

Iron and Forge could be moved to Strenght. People usually need Sexual Tyr,Pack Mule early on . I never played with less then 5 strenght.

 

I'm playing solo and personally Intellect is a must, even if I'm fine only forging iron. And I put points in Cardio; I hate running out of breath.

[GhettoNinjaStar]

What have you been doing for 84 days that you're only level 30 with a stone axe?

[Katitof]

I wouldn't consider going less then 5 points into attribute as "specializing".

 

Going 7+ is what I'd call specializing as this is when attribute costs rack up.

 

Its perfectly valid to just get basics of intellect and focus on gathering/trader or combat and questing for stuff.

 

HOWEVER getting every attribute to 5 is pretty good idea for some basic perks, going above that is your own choice and THAT is specializing.

 

My biggest grips is, the ONLY viable alternative to intellect maxing is using trader and for that you need barter and for that, ironically, you need int.

[HungryZombie]

I wouldn't consider going less then 5 points into attribute as "specializing".

 

Going 7+ is what I'd call specializing as this is when attribute costs rack up.

 

Its perfectly valid to just get basics of intellect and focus on gathering/trader or combat and questing for stuff.

 

HOWEVER getting every attribute to 5 is pretty good idea for some basic perks, going above that is your own choice and THAT is specializing.

 

My biggest grips is, the ONLY viable alternative to intellect maxing is using trader and for that you need barter and for that, ironically, you need int.

 

Pretty fair analysis. I agree specializing doesn't mean NOT putting any points outside your specialization.

[Jedo]

So, I can't give a completely pure response for SP since I am playing with a buddy, but I can give a fairly good one because we still don't have a forge or other INT valuables.

 

I went almost straight STR/melee. Here are my alts:

- 1 point into INT for better tools/weapons

- 1 point into Master Chef

- ranks in FORT enough for lvl 2 of Living off the Land and Huntsman

 

I'm level ~47, and my STR is nearly maxed (bonus from cigar) with most of my damage perks and pack mule nearly maxed. I'm still just using found weapons, mods, and resources. (I have loads of wrenches, so forged iron comes pretty easily from scrapping things.)

 

I basically clear POIs by myself (my buddy likes to piddle around), and have only just started to see ferals, which are little problem thanks to the iron armor that I found. My base is next to the town, so traveling back-and-forth without a vehicle is no real problem. We have been to the trader once, early on, but otherwise have ignored him.

 

Honestly, it has been very refreshing as I don't usually play a character like this. I reflected recently why this works so well: I can clear POIs very quickly. I one-shot most zombies. I easily can carry whatever loot I find. I also can loot quickly, which leads to more loot which leads to more chances for better weapons and mods. (I have found multiple Q6 things, and some very serviceable Q3-4 tools.) So far, I have not bothered with a base for horde night because I just melee them in the street (I set up a small kill zone). We do have zombies set to jog, but we would be fine with the default setting too.

 

All of that is to say: It can be done without INT. Maybe only with the type of build that I have (I wonder about a similar PER build), but it can be done.

[Ringkeeper]

if you don't build, then yes, you don't need INT.

 

But if you want to build, you need. PLUS the strength because you need to kill zombies/carry the stuff home and the miner perk.

[Mosiah]

if you don't build, then yes, you don't need INT.

 

Unless you want to make some food. Or craft some FA bandages or FA kits. Or make your own ammo, since you spec in using ranged. Or buy stuff from traders. Whole modding system is based around an intellect ofc, and yes, as you said for building a base it's a must.

 

You literaly can't even MAKE A TEA without an intellect perk.

[Mosiah]

Jedo:

 

Yes, let it be clearly stated that you CAN survive regluar days and night with just buying A COUPLE of basic INT perks. But, could you elaborate on what do you do on a blood moon? Does your buddy make the base?

[apostrophe]

Perhaps living without a forge and such doesn't call the attention of a bigger horde? The wiki describes a particular mechanic in the game: the heatmap, where player activity defines the zombie spawn rate. Higher tech, ie more industrious players, will seamlessly attract more hostiles. It's a vicious cycle, me thinks. I think there's merit in staying low tech.

[Jedo]

if you don't build, then yes, you don't need INT.

 

But if you want to build, you need.

 

If you want to build big and pretty, I will agree. Otherwise, flagstone->cobblestone can be done, and you can upgrade a small base to concrete if you scavenge the materials from POIs.

 

Jedo:

 

Yes, let it be clearly stated that you CAN survive regluar days and night with just buying A COUPLE of basic INT perks. But, could you elaborate on what do you do on a blood moon? Does your buddy make the base?

 

So far, I have not bothered with a base for horde night because I just melee them in the street (I set up a small kill zone). We do have zombies set to jog, but we would be fine with the default setting too.

[HungryZombie]

Perhaps living without a forge and such doesn't call the attention of a bigger horde? The wiki describes a particular mechanic in the game: the heatmap, where player activity defines the zombie spawn rate. Higher tech, ie more industrious players, will seamlessly attract more hostiles. It's a vicious cycle, me thinks. I think there's merit in staying low tech.

 

I'm pretty sure that the heat map doesn't have to do with horde night (the every 7 days horde) at all. the heat map will attract screamer zombies who can then summon a small horde of zombies, including the chance for more screamers so I can get a bit crazy at times. This is random and outside the 7 day horde.

[SnakeWildlife]

Id prefer forges go back to the way they were, as books you can find. Remember when looting PoI's was interesting? I sure do...

[BobTheBard]

Unless you want to make some food. Or craft some FA bandages or FA kits. Or make your own ammo, since you spec in using ranged. Or buy stuff from traders. Whole modding system is based around an intellect ofc, and yes, as you said for building a base it's a must.

 

You literaly can't even MAKE A TEA without an intellect perk.

 

You don't actually need to specialize in Intellect for any of these things. Making good food can be done without upgrading your Int. First-Aid bandages are nice, but you can stop bleeding with regular bandages and save the first-aid ones you find in the world or via airdrops or from trader missions for when you really need them, or just invest in Fortitude to heal (which you'll need anyway if you want to grow all that aloe to craft first-aid bandages). You can still use the trader, still receive missions, and still get good rewards from them. Ammunition can be found or bought, often more efficiently than making it (with all the nitrate I've found in 35 days I might be able to make enough bullets to last a single horde night). Mods can be found assembled. And you can build a perfectly functional upgraded flagstone base without any Intellect at all.

 

What Intellect and its associated perks do is allow for consolidation and efficiency. Intellect lets you do very few things that can't be done some other way, instead letting you do those things better, quicker, and cheaper. Now you can build your own forge, chem station, and workbench instead of relying on ones found out in the world, and put them all in the same spot. You can make a bicycle instead of running everywhere. You can make ammunition you can't find easily. You pay less and receive more from the trader. He gives you better rewards when you do something for him. You can make forged iron and steel instead of having to find it, and you can make things that last longer before breaking. You have a better and more reliable supply of mods because you can craft them yourself. And on and on.

 

Intellect is the ultimate quality-of-life convenience tree. You don't actually need any of it, but having it and the benefits it brings (especially the ability to centralize) is just so good that most of us, myself included, consider it mandatory. It lets us work smarter, not harder. Which is definitely the point of being an intellectual.

[apostrophe]

I'm pretty sure that the heat map doesn't have to do with horde night (the every 7 days horde) at all. the heat map will attract screamer zombies who can then summon a small horde of zombies, including the chance for more screamers so I can get a bit crazy at times. This is random and outside the 7 day horde.

 

♥♥♥♥♥♥♥it. So what determines the horde quantity is what, the player level? how many days the server has?

[SylenThunder]

♥♥♥♥♥♥♥it. So what determines the horde quantity is what, the player level? how many days the server has?

The difficulty of the hordes is determined by your gamestage.

[Limdood]

You don't actually need to specialize in Intellect for any of these things. Making good food can be done without upgrading your Int. First-Aid bandages are nice, but you can stop bleeding with regular bandages and save the first-aid ones you find in the world or via airdrops or from trader missions for when you really need them, or just invest in Fortitude to heal (which you'll need anyway if you want to grow all that aloe to craft first-aid bandages). You can still use the trader, still receive missions, and still get good rewards from them. Ammunition can be found or bought, often more efficiently than making it (with all the nitrate I've found in 35 days I might be able to make enough bullets to last a single horde night). Mods can be found assembled. And you can build a perfectly functional upgraded flagstone base without any Intellect at all.

 

What Intellect and its associated perks do is allow for consolidation and efficiency. Intellect lets you do very few things that can't be done some other way, instead letting you do those things better, quicker, and cheaper. Now you can build your own forge, chem station, and workbench instead of relying on ones found out in the world, and put them all in the same spot. You can make a bicycle instead of running everywhere. You can make ammunition you can't find easily. You pay less and receive more from the trader. He gives you better rewards when you do something for him. You can make forged iron and steel instead of having to find it, and you can make things that last longer before breaking. You have a better and more reliable supply of mods because you can craft them yourself. And on and on.

 

Intellect is the ultimate quality-of-life convenience tree. You don't actually need any of it, but having it and the benefits it brings (especially the ability to centralize) is just so good that most of us, myself included, consider it mandatory. It lets us work smarter, not harder. Which is definitely the point of being an intellectual.

 

Vehicles.

 

Running is so tedious and maps are so spread that vehicles are more than just a convenience.

[HungryZombie]

it's days alive and either levels or zombie kills which leads to gamestage. Higher gamestage you start getting cops and ferals.

 

If you die your gamestage goes down.

[fragtzack]

Humans are the apex predator of earth because of intellect. Not strength, agility or stamina.

 

I see no problems what so ever in a real survival situation or in the virtual world of 7D2D that intellect is the primary attribute to an individual's success.

[BobTheBard]

Vehicles.

 

Running is so tedious and maps are so spread that vehicles are more than just a convenience.

 

Not going to argue that vehicles aren't the single biggest convenience Intellect provides, because they are. But that's less of a testament to the necessity of vehicles than to how bad running/sprinting is. It's interesting - Vehicles aren't significantly faster than running, but they enable you to have such a long range because you're not stopping all the time.

 

But at the same time, you don't have to have them. You can sprint everywhere, and even cover a decent amount of distance in a day. It's just annoying as hell.

[LuckyStar]

Not going to argue that vehicles aren't the single biggest convenience Intellect provides, because they are. But that's less of a testament to the necessity of vehicles than to how bad running/sprinting is. It's interesting - Vehicles aren't significantly faster than running, but they enable you to have such a long range because you're not stopping all the time.

 

But at the same time, you don't have to have them. You can sprint everywhere, and even cover a decent amount of distance in a day. It's just annoying as hell.

 

It's not a matter of speed so much for me as the Storage.

 

If I'm going to spend a day looting, I want to bring back as much as I can.

[Cadamier]

I agree with the Op. Playing single player is much harder than playing MP. In MP you have the advantage of - if agreed upon - one person specializing in this or that, 'evenly' distributing.... Or more accurately Efficiently distributing perks/skills to multiple players so as to take advantage of the entire tree! Whereas in SP - you have little choice and they get steep! I play both MP & SP. In MP - we're restarted and we're only about day 5, not sure of the levels, but one has a bike and more are on the way already... The 'farmer' just needs a hoe to start production. This time around I have diverged from the group and am Happily on my own lol I'm probably going to forgo the motorcycle... Minibike is good enough.

 

Sure - you can do without int, but I doubt you'll go very far - especially if you play by yourself in SP! I have a feeling that you'll get frustrated by rads during horde night... And will eventually have to resort to the 'perks'/'luxuries' provided by int.

[Limdood]

intellect as a required stat would be solvable with a few changes:

 

1) allow lucky looter to apply a bonus to quantity of ammo found

2) allow the barter perks to modify the ammo available at a trader, or add some modifiers that make it give traders more consistently available and more numerous amounts of ammo

3) make vehicles purchasable from traders and/or quest rewards

This is the big one:

4) move better barter, daring adventurer, and charismatic nature. Potentially to a new charisma stat (it obviously won't be as big or necessary as intelligence, but it could be made only 5 points and very cheap to buy, since making people invest just as many points into a new stat utterly defeats the purpose), but you could also make them not under ANY attribute...they just take points to increase

 

This solves the issues of:

1) getting decent gear - more applicable trader tools/weapons, and easier access to quest rewards by being able to get better barter and daring adventurer

2) ammo - being unable to craft ammo will eventually leave your magazines empty. Access to more found and bought ammo helps offset this.

3) transportation - vehicles are the biggest thing exclusive to intelligence only. Allowing vehicles to be purchasable or earnable from traders (at extreme prices and maybe level 4/5 quests only) gives a no-intelligence player access, but not choice or consistency in obtaining one.

 

most people will still use intelligence, but this would allow people to CHOOSE to play without feeling like an attribute was required, which i feel is important to the "RPG" aspect of the game. It's clearly trying to push a "choice" aspect, so I feel that no attribute should be REQUIRED, and you should be able to play a reasonable (hard, maybe, but at least consistently possible) game without [insert any ONE attribute here].

[Mosiah]

Intellect is the ultimate quality-of-life convenience tree. You don't actually need any of it, but having it and the benefits it brings (especially the ability to centralize) is just so good that most of us, myself included, consider it mandatory. It lets us work smarter, not harder. Which is definitely the point of being an intellectual.

 

Don't get too hung up on the tea comment, please. It's not what this topic is about anyway - i meant what i wrote in the OP.

 

Point is, there is nothing in the other trees that would help you survive the grand, glorious, hell that is the 7th night. You can decide not to put your points in the INT. You can learn to sneak, grow plants, use armor effectively, increase your inventory. It's all great. Up until 20 irradiated cops come knocking on your door.

 

At that moment, you realize, how incredibly meaningless those points are. That those 4 days spent looking for that anvil, so you could save the points to learn how to shoot a bow(or anything else) were SO wasted. You realize, you should have invested more in INT. But unfortunately, everything there is kinda point expensive. Just the forge itself costs 4 points in INT. And this yields just the ingots, not even the tools. So you slowly starting cutting points from everything else.

 

Aaaand then you realize: 'If i invested so many points in INT, why would i even bother with intristic immunity, if for the same points i can now craft antibiotics'(Since i already invested a lot of points in the INT attribute)?? And there we go with the INT build.