BobTheBard Posted January 19, 2019 Share Posted January 19, 2019 First off, I have to issue a disclaimer. I'm not against modding at all. In fact, I enjoy modding the crap out of my games, as my copy of RimWorld with its five-minute loading time will attest. Mods are great, and I love them. But, on to the post. This post is intended to examine what I consider the faulty argument I see crop up in a lot of suggestion and complaint threads, the argument of 'If you don't like it, just mod it.' I think a lot of people miss the point when they respond to a complaint about the base game with 'Just mod it.' There is something very important to keep in mind when you make this claim, and that has nothing to do with the ease of modding or the scope and scale of what can be modded. It has to do with how easy the mods are for the average user to access and use, and right now 7 Days isn't in a great spot on that front. The first question that must be answered is 'How do I find the mod I want?' which will be shortly followed by 'How do I know this mod works?' and 'How do I know this mod is good?' The lack of an easily-accessible, readily-understandable, searchable central repository for mods hinders this discovery process. Sure, you can technically use a forum for this (and a lot of games try) but if you really want to push mods you really need to use something better, like NexusMods or Steam Workshop. Having a central repository not only allows users to find what they want easier, but it also allows them an easy avenue of communication with the mod designer and allows modders easy ways to talk to each other as well and stomp out mod conflicts. While a forum can certainly do all these things, it doesn't do them nearly as well as a more dedicated platform. The second question that they're going to ask is 'I like this mod, how do I make it work?' While 7 Days has gotten a lot better with this with A17, it's not quite there yet. Maybe this is because I used to work in IT and developed a cynical view, but asking the average PC user to modify things deep in the file structure is like asking a random passerby on the street to perform a virtual appendectomy - Most of them are going to mess something up without detailed instructions and some of them might somehow still manage to hurt themselves in the process. One of the main reasons games like Skyrim and Minecraft are praised for their moddability isn't just the ease, flexibility, and scope of the mods themselves, but also how easy it is for a user to set them up via methods like the desktop Twitch app or a special launcher like Vortex or the Steam Workshop. 7 Days still requires a lot of manual file-fiddling and directory-hunting. A related and important question is 'Do I need this mod to play on the servers I want to play on?' and this is a big question for anyone who uses multiplayer. Vanilla is always going to be the widely-used default for multiplayer because coordinating mod installations and updates increases in difficulty exponentially with the number of players that server has. Additionally, most servers are going to want to use different mods, which magnifies any shortcomings in the systems mentioned above - The more involved a process it is to find, download, install, enable, disable, and remove mods, the more time-consuming it is to make them work in multiplayer and the less people are going to want to use them or see them as an answer. In short, while 7 Days is getting there on the modding front and continues to make steady progress, it doesn't really have the systems in place yet to expect mods to be able to solve everybody's problems with the game. So remember this when you respond to someone complaining about a balance issue that's 'easily solved' with mods, because saying 'Just mod it' and ending the conversation there is doing the person you're replying to a disservice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stasis78 Posted January 19, 2019 Share Posted January 19, 2019 It’s the answer to anything you don’t like and it’s going to be the only answer unless you convince TFP otherwise Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OzHawkeye Posted January 19, 2019 Share Posted January 19, 2019 Well, OP, I agree that the modding system, while improved greatly by things like community made mod managers, and xpath modlets, isn't perfect, sans Steam Workshop support say, the answer to someone wanting a difference from the base game still has to be "then mod it in". What I think some people infer from this is an attitude of not caring, or dismissing feedback, which it shouldn't be used as (but is by some), but is used to indicate that this games greatest single advantage is the ease of making mods, from simple little xpath mods to total overhauls, to suit individual player tastes. I'll be first in line to cheer a single, unified, officially supported mod portal, with full descriptors and review comments, whenever we get it, but as you've noted, modding is much more organised (and much simpler) than its ever been, and so the answer you may find objectionable from time to time, still has to be, ultimately, the final, valid one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stasis78 Posted January 19, 2019 Share Posted January 19, 2019 When xcom EU came out the community there was very excited. Not because Firaxis made a great game but because you could hack on it and do crazy insane things. They didn’t even make it easy. You had to literally disable a stupid ass phone home command in ini files. lol People started hacking and not too far out from there long war was born. Long war took turned based gaming to the next level. One that still has yet to be matched by any game ever. Long war 2 is an utter mess and defunct now for various reasons. The point being, xcom EU and EW are brilliant games and I love them. But after Long War, vanilla just seems broken. This game will be the same way imho. Devs put an awesome system in place and then mods come to take it to the next level. What everyone likes to dismiss in all these threads is Pimps actually let you play their game before it’s done. They actually listen to feedback to make it better. They actually make the game moddable. Good luck with getting all that from AAA studios. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stasis78 Posted January 19, 2019 Share Posted January 19, 2019 I’ll clarify a couple points in comparisons to xcom. First. Pimps will release what their vision is. Firaxis released xcom and it was awesome. It was one of a kind at the time and no one had done anything with turn based that was relevant basically since original xcom. They had a vision and they executed on it, very successfully. That was their vision. I think the pimps will be as successful with their vision if not more so based on early access feedback that xcom did not have. Second, the next level and “broken”. When you make a game. You have a lot of work to do. You don’t have time to sit back an watch yourself as a third party. You also have the next thing to work on. No company has time to release a game and see another vision for the game. There aren’t multiple visions. Only one or you’ll never ship. Meanwhile other folks can see their own vision on a game and easily come in and do some moderate adjustments and say “this is my vision”. None of that should ever take away from the systems and work the original developers did to make that other vision possible. Love TFP. Thank you for your work. Keep it coming, please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaxTeller718 Posted January 19, 2019 Share Posted January 19, 2019 You know why "Just Mod It" doesn't work? Because every update they put out breaks them. 17.1 broke Ravenhearst, to the point that 3 hours later I am STILL tracking down errors in EntityPlayerLocal after pulling my mod apart. And this is 100 percent made with modlets so don't fall for that either. Sure simple xml edits are easy, but do something more complex and kiss your work goodbye. But of course you will be told"If you do not like it mod it". Well the catch 22 is that if you DO mod it most likely Pimps will go in there and rename buffs like the did in 17.1 for no real reason. Or add loot lists and blocks that push your mods into broken territory. Which is fine, I get it. Its EA and its Alpha and frankly i think we all know stable is just a word with zero meaning by now, but stop telling people to mod it mod it mod it and then go and break those mods every single update. Its counter productive. And even though I have the patience to understand what I am dealing with, and have for the past two plus years, i guarantee you some others won't bother. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OzHawkeye Posted January 19, 2019 Share Posted January 19, 2019 You know why "Just Mod It" doesn't work? Because every update they put out breaks them. 17.1 broke Ravenhearst, to the point that 3 hours later I am STILL tracking down errors in EntityPlayerLocal after pulling my mod apart. And this is 100 percent made with modlets so don't fall for that either. Sure simple xml edits are easy, but do something more complex and kiss your work goodbye. But of course you will be told"If you do not like it mod it". Well the catch 22 is that if you DO mod it most likely Pimps will go in there and rename buffs like the did in 17.1 for no real reason. Or add loot lists and blocks that push your mods into broken territory. Which is fine, I get it. Its EA and its Alpha and frankly i think we all know stable is just a word with zero meaning by now, but stop telling people to mod it mod it mod it and then go and break those mods every single update. Its counter productive. And even though I have the patience to understand what I am dealing with, and have for the past two plus years, i guarantee you some others won't bother. Well, I can admire modders such as yourself putting out Overhaul mods, I've played a few, though I mostly just play my own little mods, and will until Gold. I think you have to accept though (and I think you more or less do) that mods from one Alpha will, more often than not, be broken by the next Alpha. Now, I'm not suggesting TFP should go out of their way to break mods in each Alpha, in fact, I think it would be good if they actively tried not to do that, nor am I such an expert in modding that I could fault your claims either way, but I do believe, in the end, that a mod made for Alpha(x) that works for Alpha(x+1) is a matter of good fortune, and less so good development. In any event, given that Alpha 18 is sounding like the last Alpha, at this stage, then you'll likely only have to rebuild Ravenhearst from the ground up one more time, and hopefully, not even one more time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Posted January 19, 2019 Share Posted January 19, 2019 When I tell people to "just mod it" I'm talking about ultimately--once the game is done. Right now is the time for development and change. As far as I'm concerned right now in this moment your realistic choices are deal with it or shelve it until the game is done....and THEN mod it. I also take my hat off to overhaul modders who do what they do in this climate of change. You guys are crazy but very much appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaxTeller718 Posted January 19, 2019 Share Posted January 19, 2019 Well, I can admire modders such as yourself putting out Overhaul mods, I've played a few, though I mostly just play my own little mods, and will until Gold. I think you have to accept though (and I think you more or less do) that mods from one Alpha will, more often than not, be broken by the next Alpha. Now, I'm not suggesting TFP should go out of their way to break mods in each Alpha, in fact, I think it would be good if they actively tried not to do that, nor am I such an expert in modding that I could fault your claims either way, but I do believe, in the end, that a mod made for Alpha(x) that works for Alpha(x+1) is a matter of good fortune, and less so good development. In any event, given that Alpha 18 is sounding like the last Alpha, at this stage, then you'll likely only have to rebuild Ravenhearst from the ground up one more time, and hopefully, not even one more time. Oh yeah I know what I get into each time lol. My team begs me to wait but I don't listen because I love it. I can just see it scaring off some people who are just learning and then next thing they know an update comes out and they aren't sure why their mod doesnt work. Like you just said, you won't really get too deep into them until Gold, and I will bet the majority of players feel like this so hearing "Just mod it" can be quite discouraging to them, or perhaps make them feel like their issues are trivialized. I look forward to the day gold hits, but at the same time I don't. What will I do with myself! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stasis78 Posted January 19, 2019 Share Posted January 19, 2019 You know why "Just Mod It" doesn't work?. Jax you are lazy. Go learn xpath ;p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stasis78 Posted January 19, 2019 Share Posted January 19, 2019 When I tell people to "just mod it" I'm talking about ultimately--once the game is done. Right now is the time for development and change. As far as I'm concerned right now in this moment your realistic choices are deal with it or shelve it until the game is done....and THEN mod it. I also take my hat off to overhaul modders who do what they do in this climate of change. You guys are crazy but very much appreciated. I want to see Roland make a mod. Even if it’s just simple like. 2 snowballs and 2 empty jars make 2 drinkable waters Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guppycur Posted January 19, 2019 Share Posted January 19, 2019 Modding functionality isn't ready for workshop support yet. As far as a central repo, Sphereii has taken up that mantle with the mod launcher. We're just not there yet (workshop support). But it's getting closer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Posted January 19, 2019 Share Posted January 19, 2019 I want to see Roland make a mod. Even if it’s just simple like. 2 snowballs and 2 empty jars make 2 drinkable waters I edit my own xmls from time to time. I don’t know how to do anything fancy. A few weeks ago I changed all zombies to only give 50xp and then lowered the base number of xp needed to level up. I really liked it and will definitely do it again and with more thought if by gold zombies are still too high in xp rewards. I believe they still are now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guppycur Posted January 19, 2019 Share Posted January 19, 2019 ...I used to talk with Razzorial (sp?) on IRC about modding quite a bit, before I started modding... at the time he was finding gunshot sounds for his Deathwish mod, which introduced not just gun types, but different BRANDS of each type... he was having a hell of a time, and each update, his stuff would break, and each update, we would discuss the pro's and con's of modding an EA game that broke the mods each update. The biggest pro was learning the in's and out's ahead of the curve so that it was easier each update, the biggest con was of course all of the work involved re-doing the same work you did the last patch. Xpath and native support for 3rd party unity objects has made that con almost a non issue. No need to keep backups of your modified xml's, comparing them to what's changed in new downloads... simply leave them be and see what errors. Truly a time saver. Once Loot ID's go away, that should be the last hurdle before almost NO changes need to be made to the xmls. But we're just not there quite yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stasis78 Posted January 19, 2019 Share Posted January 19, 2019 Gup we need better xpath support. Right now look at this cluster ♥♥♥♥ mod that COULD be 2 nodes for N xml nodes not N + 1 nodes... We need expressions inside of set/setattribute/append. https://github.com/stasis78/7dtd-mods/blob/master/PolishedSteelMod/Config/blocks.xml IF I could just reference ancestor here it would be concat lowercase done. ..... Instead I have to grep for name=“steel. then. Do a bunch of copy paste BS and oh I probably misspelled something. And it only took an hour of my life copy pasting for NO reason. And before you freak out there is already an xpath freaking expression class in facking .net. https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/api/system.xml.xpath.xpathexpression Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guppycur Posted January 19, 2019 Share Posted January 19, 2019 I don't understand a word of what you said, but check out Khelldon's Get Nailed mod, I think it might have the solution you're looking for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaxTeller718 Posted January 19, 2019 Share Posted January 19, 2019 Jax you are lazy. Go learn xpath ;p It would probably easier if i DIDNT use it lol. 129 modlets and counting, all dependant on each other to run the overhaul. Guess how many broke in 17.1? You do NOT want to know lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stasis78 Posted January 19, 2019 Share Posted January 19, 2019 You can’t use xpath in value or child nodes. - - - Updated - - - [ATTACH=CONFIG]27224[/ATTACH] It would probably easier if i DIDNT use it lol. 129 modlets and counting, all dependant on each other to run the overhaul. Guess how many broke in 17.1? You do NOT want to know lol I was talking about your water food post in mods forum ;p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stasis78 Posted January 19, 2019 Share Posted January 19, 2019 Ok I need to post an actual example otherwise no one is gonna know what I’m talking about. It wasn’t as constructive as it should have been. My bad. Example incoming ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pahbi Posted January 19, 2019 Share Posted January 19, 2019 This probably isn't going to be helpful to this particular issue, but maybe it will help someone else. https://codebeautify.org/Xpath-Tester Is awesome at helping figure out xpaths. - P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stasis78 Posted January 19, 2019 Share Posted January 19, 2019 Ok take this example, I should be able to do this (should means TFP doesn’t have to agree) <setattribute xpath="/blocks/block[starts-with(@name,'concr')]/property[@class='UpgradeBlock']" name="myCoolAttrib"> ancestor::*/@name </setattribute> OR <setattribute xpath="/blocks/block[starts-with(@name,'concr')]/property[@class='UpgradeBlock']" name="myCoolAttrib"> <xpathexpression xpath="ancestor::*/@name" /> </setattribute> So here I want all these blocks to have an attribute of myCoolAttrib set to the name of the block matched. BUT the xpath matches the child node for property @class='UpgradeBlock', can't do this today, the mod xpath requires a literal string. not an expression. please add this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gazz Posted January 19, 2019 Share Posted January 19, 2019 7DTD is in active development. This is not the same as a finished and released game where systems can be expected not to change much. Well the catch 22 is that if you DO mod it most likely Pimps will go in there and rename buffs like the did in 17.1 for no real reason. Or add loot lists and blocks that push your mods into broken territory. See above and... that you don't know the reason does not mean there isn't one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Royal Deluxe Posted January 19, 2019 Share Posted January 19, 2019 See above and... that you don't know the reason does not mean there isn't one. i imagine the TFP meetings "ok guys, everything works fine in the release kandiate. Now what can we do to screw jax ? any suggestions ?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gazz Posted January 19, 2019 Share Posted January 19, 2019 Okay, who snitched??? Also: It is actually explained in the same file so *shrug*. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuckyStar Posted January 19, 2019 Share Posted January 19, 2019 You know why "Just Mod It" doesn't work? Because every update they put out breaks them. 17.1 broke Ravenhearst, to the point that 3 hours later I am STILL tracking down errors in EntityPlayerLocal after pulling my mod apart. And this is 100 percent made with modlets so don't fall for that either. Sure simple xml edits are easy, but do something more complex and kiss your work goodbye. But of course you will be told"If you do not like it mod it". Well the catch 22 is that if you DO mod it most likely Pimps will go in there and rename buffs like the did in 17.1 for no real reason. Or add loot lists and blocks that push your mods into broken territory. Which is fine, I get it. Its EA and its Alpha and frankly i think we all know stable is just a word with zero meaning by now, but stop telling people to mod it mod it mod it and then go and break those mods every single update. Its counter productive. And even though I have the patience to understand what I am dealing with, and have for the past two plus years, i guarantee you some others won't bother. Okay Jax let me ask you: What could TFP do to make your life easier? What can they add or change to help folks like yourself, who have large mods that are very popular? Let's hope TFP see this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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