Feedback for The Fun Pimps on Alpha 17

[Zomboid]

Where do you see a contradiction? Gazz didn't say, "In an effort to stop players from digging pits we have made the following change..." The devs were not trying to end pit digging as a part of base defense. Fall damage wasn't eliminated only instant death from a fall was. Pits soften them up for further damage to be done by additional traps (with maintenance costs) or the actively playing player.

 

He pretty much did say that digging pits was an expoit and whether you agree it was intentional or not that has been the result: digging a pit is supposed to no longer a base defence solution. (it is though, see below. So Gazz fixed nothing.)

 

 

The methods eliminated were deemed to be exploits by the designers of the game. Sorry, if you disagree, but honestly the developers have to stick to their own definition of what an exploit is and not the player base definition. Players are notorious for having a power bias and being resistant to strategies and abilities that have both an upside and a downside. Players tend to only want upside. Other strategies have been made to be more challenging. Yes.

 

But, that is what makes a game a game-- win vs loss. There must be opportunity for both. You show me a game without opportunity for both winning and losing and I'll show you an interactive experience falsely calling itself a game.

 

Well frankly I completely disagree with the developers here. This is supposed to be a sandbox RPG (according to steam), emphasis on SANDBOX. I think the players know more about the fun we'd like to have than the developers caring about what is or isn't an exploit.

 

By the way, this hasn't been fixed at all as people can just create 3 tier pits. So instead of being innovative and taking this "exploit" as an opportunity to make some positive changes to the game, the devs just made it harder to do pits. Sounds like a great solution. You're defending a castle on sand here mate. It was a bad solution. FACT.

 

I agree that I could have been more....bland....in my responses. <shrug> I stand by the veracity of everything I said. It has turned out to be true. There ARE a variety of bases being built and a variety of strategies being used and threads are popping up describing in the form of instructions for how others can employ those same strategies and bases. The people who complained and called base design impossible when A17 first released have been proven utterly and completely wrong. Things proclaimed impossible are possible.

 

Roland we both know I was talking here about the manner of communication rather than the content and it was unprofessional in my opinion. I'll leave it at that.

 

So what would you say accounts for that? Could it be that just like in life there are some who give up too easily and who don't try or who can't see a new solution.....until.....others do it and show how it can be done?

 

In almost every instance I've seen of someone "designing" a base, in the end when you get a picture or video it's a ridiculously overengineered mess full of ramps and/or shooting zombies like fish in a barrel as their AI has them careening around.

 

That quote above is also extremely condescending again, Roland.

 

And furthermore: My opnion is that in a game, you shouldn't have to watch a load of youtube tutorials to be able to build a defensible base because the developers want the learning curve to be high.

 

t is also true that some players are ignoring the variety of bases that are possible because they are more work than some of the easy exploits that are currently available. What's interesting is they keep posting that the exploits are the only viable way to build a base because they are so easy so you MUST use them. When those exploits are closed then what shall they do? (Or would that be another contradiction of what I posted earlier )

 

They adapt of course Roland. You can step off your high horse. But when players adapt the developers "accidentally" remove their options. E.g. underground bunkers or pit falls. And there is absolutely no need for your snarky reply in the brackets either. It's once again extremely unprofessional.

 

TFP does not endorse or maintain any wikis.

Just to let you know then: this very website links to the wiki. Someone should fix either that link or the wiki if it isn't being endorsed.

 

I will also point out several additional notes here mate:

 

1. You have consistently asked for constructive criticism on this forum and yet when presented with it, I don't even get a thanks.

2. You have taken nothing on board of what I have said. Absolutely nothing. You have gone into full-on defense mode and resulted to quoting single sentences or paragraphs to reply to - especially ones that are barely even relevant like merchandising rather than actually addressing any of the actual issues. That is deeply saddening from a customer point of view.

3. I really don't appreciate being given attitude and snark as a customer trying to provide feedback on a game I have enjoyed for years.

 

You can disagree with the criticism or ignore it for sure, but being snarky is just uncalled for mate.

[Zomboid]

I am still experimenting with the old "Tower above a Bunker" defense popularized in A16. The tower and bunker is reinforced concrete and surrounded by hundreds of spikes and mines with the only access being a concrete ramp 20 blocks long, 3 block wide bridge. It is the easiest access to me but is covered by 2 shotgun turrets and bars on the sides to prevent Z's falling and targeting the reinforced supports below. The tower is topped by a Iron bar enclosed top that holds my Gen banks. On each 7th day I turn off my forges, campfires and Chem stations to lower the below ground attraction and blast away with the marksman rifle until morning. Thus far, day 42 and still going.

 

 

This is working for me because since the first Horde night I have tried to adapt and add to my survival chances in this version until the next one, where I will probably have to totally revamp defensive strat to make headway in A18.

 

Impossible

 

Yeah... I did say that using a lot of traps is an option. Re-read the post mate. Emphasis on hundreds of traps and mines and shotgun turrets netting you all precisely 0XP. I did cover this in my post.

[Jedo]

Well frankly I completely disagree with the developers here. This is supposed to be a sandbox RPG (according to steam), emphasis on SANDBOX. I think the players know more about the fun we'd like to have than the developers caring about what is or isn't an exploit.

 

This is a very confusing and presumptive paragraph. You can disagree with the developers, but in the end, it is their game. The people who like the game that the developers are making will play it. I didn't buy Pokemon: Let's Go, Pikachu! for that very reason, but that doesn't mean that I get to dictate to those developers what game I thought they should have made in order to match my fun. Funny then that you think the emphasis is supposed to be on SANDBOX. I didn't realize that your name was in the credits as a developer.

 

Speaking of "sandbox": it's kind of a tricky word. Obviously, it doesn't mean that you can do anything you want because boundaries and rules remain. Interestingly, it also doesn't necessarily mean that the main sandbox element occurs within the regular game. I've played plenty of strategy and building games where sandbox is an extra mode outside of the game. It would seem that creative mode would satisfy that requirement.

 

And furthermore: My opnion is that in a game, you shouldn't have to watch a load of youtube tutorials to be able to build a defensible base because the developers want the learning curve to be high.

 

Roland didn't say "have to watch"; he suggested that those who lack the creativity or the vision to find the solution could look to what others have done. I'm an amateur logic puzzler. When I can't figure out the solutions to the puzzles, does that mean that I "have to watch" somebody else's solution? If I do, was that the fault of the puzzle maker? No.

 

While I'm here, I noticed your use of "my opinion," something which takes up much of this post. I just want to mention that because it means that you cannot get the "right" of this conversation (though you can get the wrong).

 

They adapt of course Roland. You can step off your high horse. But when players adapt the developers "accidentally" remove their options. E.g. underground bunkers or pit falls.

 

Welcome to Early Access where things change and strategies are demolished as the developers continue to implement the game piece-by-piece.

 

Just to let you know then: this very website links to the wiki. Someone should fix either that link or the wiki if it isn't being endorsed.

 

It's kind of like those times when a company points to a resource that they know their customers have found helpful, but they have no control over that source and, being outside of their quality control, they in no way endorse it. Maybe TFP should just put a disclaimer like other companies do.

[Zomboid]

This is a very confusing and presumptive paragraph. You can disagree with the developers, but in the end, it is their game. The people who like the game that the developers are making will play it. I didn't buy Pokemon: Let's Go, Pikachu! for that very reason, but that doesn't mean that I get to dictate to those developers what game I thought they should have made in order to match my fun. Funny then that you think the emphasis is supposed to be on SANDBOX. I didn't realize that your name was in the credits as a developer.

 

Speaking of "sandbox": it's kind of a tricky word. Obviously, it doesn't mean that you can do anything you want because boundaries and rules remain. Interestingly, it also doesn't necessarily mean that the main sandbox element occurs within the regular game. I've played plenty of strategy and building games where sandbox is an extra mode outside of the game. It would seem that creative mode would satisfy that requirement.

 

Again more snarky toxic remarks.

 

This game has been in early access for years, it does not in any way compare to pokemon. Early Access games need feedback. read my previous post, I literally cover everything else you say including saying they can ignore my feedback if they would like at the bottom of that post you quoted.

 

"A sandbox is a style of game in which minimal character limitations are placed on the gamer, allowing the gamer to roam and change a virtual world at will. In contrast to a progression-style game, a sandbox game emphasizes roaming and allows a gamer to select tasks. You're another one defending a casrtle built on sand.

 

Roland didn't say "have to watch"; he suggested that those who lack the creativity or the vision to find the solution could look to what others have done. I'm an amateur logic puzzler. When I can't figure out the solutions to the puzzles, does that mean that I "have to watch" somebody else's solution? If I do, was that the fault of the puzzle maker? No.

 

Yes he does, I literally quoted above where he recommends that someone watch other videos if they cannot enjoy the game.

 

While I'm here, I noticed your use of "my opinion," something which takes up much of this post. I just want to mention that because it means that you cannot get the "right" of this conversation (though you can get the wrong).

 

I'm not even sure what your point is here, you're just being toxic and offensive now. I did say it was all only the opinion of one customer and should be treated as such. Read the post above and you'll see.

 

 

Welcome to Early Access where things change and strategies are demolished as the developers continue to implement the game piece-by-piece.

 

Yes and God forbid anyone tries to give constructive feedback eh?

 

It's kind of like those times when a company points to a resource that they know their customers have found helpful, but they have no control over that source and, being outside of their quality control, they in no way endorse it. Maybe TFP should just put a disclaimer like other companies do.

 

Yes they probably should. It's a bit misleading to say that something isn't endorsed when the site links directly to it.

[Zomboid]

You know what guys, argue amongst yourselves. I really cannot be bothered. I have provided my constructive feedback for a game I love with plenty of positives and negatives, as well as some solutions. I have done so thanklessly, as many others have, as a paying customer. I did not namecall or behave offensively.

 

Whatever happens I hope your game does well, but I have to say I am extremely disappointed by the attitude of the moderating team here, as well as the toxicity of some members and it will be reflected in my changed Steam review.

[Jedo]

It seems like replying to this is a lost cause (considering your follow-up post), but just in case...

This game has been in early access for years, it does not in any way compare to pokemon. Early Access games need feedback. read my previous post, I literally cover everything else you say including saying they can ignore my feedback if they would like at the bottom of that post you quoted.

 

Yes, but it's one thing to pay lipservice to a sentiment and quite another to embody it. When your language dips into things like "should" (a notorious word), it suggests that you don't really believe that it's just your opinion or that ignoring your feedback is an option.

 

"A sandbox is a style of game in which minimal character limitations are placed on the gamer, allowing the gamer to roam and change a virtual world at will. In contrast to a progression-style game, a sandbox game emphasizes roaming and allows a gamer to select tasks. You're another one defending a casrtle built on sand.

 

So you admit that there are some limitations in a sandbox. What is not clear is what those limitations are allowed to be or what constitutes "minimal" before "sandbox" no longer is a valid label. That's what I was saying. (Incidentally, my castle built on sand can be whatever I make it, and I've made it out of reinforced concrete, able to withstand whatever you throw at it. )

 

Yes he does, I literally quoted above where he recommends that someone watch other videos if they cannot enjoy the game.

 

I can't find that quote. Maybe you can help me? All I see is Roland pointing to a resource that some can use if they find some obstacle too difficult for them to overcome using their own brain power. That is not the same as "have to watch." They could just work harder to overcome the obstacle by using different tactics.

 

Yes and God forbid anyone tries to give constructive feedback eh?

 

I don't see where I knocked constructive feedback. It's fine and part of the process. My point was that what looks like countering player strategies is just the product of a step-by-step EA journey as the players play an unfinished game.

 

Again more snarky toxic remarks.

 

I don't know that I was anymore snarky than you have been.

[Roland]

Zomboid, I think your standards of professionalism are spot on for certain industries. But for the zombie video game forum industry you just can’t expect reverence and solemnity.

 

I’m not changing my style. Go ahead and reflect that in your review. I’m not sure why you are taking such offense but nothing I post is meant offensively. Even you agree that in each of those examples you gave of unprofessional behavior on my part I was much more mild than the person I was addressing.

 

Go in peace and write your scathing review of me. Maybe do a yelp as well?

[Spindizzy]

First post, just a few things that might have already been said but main thoughts on Alpha 17 for me personally as something who has played on and off since around Alpha 8 or 9 or so.

 

1. New lighting looks really nice but it's really dark as soon as it hits night and and just before morning, lightness seems very dependent on where the moon is in sky, lighting will sometimes change instantly change drastically rather than gradually. Game already forced me to turn gamma up once and then day 7 night was so ridiculously dark I had to crank gamma up even more to see anything, not a fun way to make the game more challenging.

 

2. Without table saw I'm now limited to what appears to be three or so block types for base building. Wooden block, wooden ramp and wooden bars. Table saw ingredients aren't too bad but it needs a workbench to build. Workbench is broken at my local trader and not seen another one, can't build my own workbench as it needs hammer and the skill point requirement to make iron tools is huge. So you're just guaranteeing I spend my first week making an ugly base and leave it at that with this.

 

3. Game feels a lot more grindy, I suppose the idea is delaying the endgame so people don't get everything straight away then get bored. I think there's far too big a gap between stone tools and iron tools though, need a middle ground for crude iron pickaxes and blunderbusses. By the time I unlock forge with iron tools I'll be building high quality tools. I've also heard from friends who've played Alpha 17 a lot longer than me than guns are way too common now although I haven't found that yet but I play with no loot refresh.

 

4. Feels near impossible to have enough food and water for more than a couple of minutes, eat and swing an axe several times and you're hungry again.

 

5. A bit linear in how the best stuff is usually the same two or three boxes in the furthest place to get, but the inside of buildings is generally more nicely designed and thought out.

 

6. Zombie A.I is much more competent at knocking down buildings and I no longer feel completely safe just camping on a random roof on the seventh day. The zombie A.I is better but it's missing some crucial pathing calculations that allow it to be taken advantage of easily which may make it seem stupider than before or too intelligent. Zombies shouldn't know the exact location of far away doors on the other side of bases and they shouldn't constantly change direction everytime you jump from one platform to the next. Zombies need a greater appreciation of actual distance when it thinks walking up some stairs 100m away is a better option then just attacking the blocks you're on when it's standing right below you and zombies should also sometimes just make a decision and stick to it. The problem seems to be zombies all think completely independently of each other while all acting under basic same rules allowing you to "cheese" an entire horde and they either need some randomization or they could do with some "horde" governing code e.g like how ghosts in pac man work together to try and trap you, or if one zombies is in the range of a door or a breach then it'll signal other zombies in a radius of that zombie and so on and can cause a chain reaction of following the pack which is a zombie trait.

 

7. Log spike removal, can you not just not allow people to rotate them upside down? Can't we at least have kept them as decoration blocks so I don't have to mod it back in? The trader in the snow biome on navesgame still gets to have them on his wall. Along those lines can we have the wood ramp corner frames added and wood ramp corners buildable please? Known on the creative menu as "WOOD CNR RAMP".

 

8. Random dog packs can be hard to survive if ill equipped and slow and feel pretty cheap, especially early on or if you don't notice them. Actually had a wolf pack on day 1 on my first try on alpha 17 killing me and a friend. Giant wolves who he trapped inside the trader which then somehow got out again by somehow floating over the walls, it looked very glitchy. Should at least allow till around day 5 at the earliest I think and I think before one appears you deserve an audio warning like a "wolf howl".

 

9. I fully support and appreciate how it's now more difficult to set up and build an underground base, I would've hated not being able to do it at all but it was far too easy how quickly you could do it and be pretty much perfectly safe and out of danger, I feel nowhere in the game world should be a permanent safe space.

[Ghostlight]

It is hilarious to me that TFP added digging zombies to remove what they saw as a exploit, but in doing so also changed the AI to be the easiest to exploit it has ever been, by building something as simple as a goddam ramp. Then TFP complain people are building the exploiting ramp instead of looking into other designs. LMAO. You couldn't make it up.

 

I am also in complete agreement about the sandbox nature of the game. If people want to dig a hole and never see a zombie, that's their business. Adding diggers and similar exploit-hosers seems petty and mean-spirited. Did someone in the dev team have a really crap day and decide to take it out on the easiest targets in the playerbase?

[RipClaw]

I think there's far too big a gap between stone tools and iron tools though, need a middle ground for crude iron pickaxes and blunderbusses. By the time I unlock forge with iron tools I'll be building high quality tools.

 

Here, several scrap iron tools have been suggested as an intermediate step between stone and iron. These would then have a low durability but are better than the stone tools.

 

4. Feels near impossible to have enough food and water for more than a couple of minutes, eat and swing an axe several times and you're hungry again.

 

Once you have a garden, it gets easier. Compared to the experimental the consumption of food has decreased. At that time it was much worse.

 

6. Zombie A.I is much more competent at knocking down buildings and I no longer feel completely safe just camping on a random roof on the seventh day. The zombie A.I is better but it's missing some crucial pathing calculations that allow it to be taken advantage of easily which may make it seem stupider than before or too intelligent. Zombies shouldn't know the exact location of far away doors on the other side of bases and they shouldn't constantly change direction everytime you jump from one platform to the next. Zombies need a greater appreciation of actual distance when it thinks walking up some stairs 100m away is a better option then just attacking the blocks you're on when it's standing right below you and zombies should also sometimes just make a decision and stick to it. The problem seems to be zombies all think completely independently of each other while all acting under basic same rules allowing you to "cheese" an entire horde and they either need some randomization or they could do with some "horde" governing code e.g like how ghosts in pac man work together to try and trap you, or if one zombies is in the range of a door or a breach then it'll signal other zombies in a radius of that zombie and so on and can cause a chain reaction of following the pack which is a zombie trait.

 

Any random behavior with these zombies would be a disaster. Due to the increased block damage, they can quickly hit their way through any material. Accordingly, the most effective defense is to use the path finding against them.

 

Random behavior would make this type of defense useless and you would have to resort to firepower. But if you rely solely on firepower, you lose in the long run.

 

I have tested how much ammo I need against a gamestage 450 horde if I only use firearms. I used 6000 rounds of ammo. That's not really efficient and you have to make 6000 rounds every week so you don't run out of ammo during the horde.

 

7. Log spike removal, can you not just not allow people to rotate them upside down? Can't we at least have kept them as decoration blocks so I don't have to mod it back in? The trader in the snow biome on navesgame still gets to have them on his wall. Along those lines can we have the wood ramp corner frames added and wood ramp corners buildable please? Known on the creative menu as "WOOD CNR RAMP".

 

There's some other stuff gone from the game that was still present in the Alpha 16. For example you only have one kind of lamp for the illumination.

Of course this is a pity for the players who like to build beautiful bases.

 

8. Random dog packs can be hard to survive if ill equipped and slow and feel pretty cheap, especially early on or if you don't notice them. Actually had a wolf pack on day 1 on my first try on alpha 17 killing me and a friend. Giant wolves who he trapped inside the trader which then somehow got out again by somehow floating over the walls, it looked very glitchy. Should at least allow till around day 5 at the earliest I think and I think before one appears you deserve an audio warning like a "wolf howl".

 

Yeah, the dogs and wolves are little, sneaky bastards. But I am happy in the Alpha 17 every time I see a horde of dogs because they give me bones.

 

9. I fully support and appreciate how it's now more difficult to set up and build an underground base, I would've hated not being able to do it at all but it was far too easy how quickly you could do it and be pretty much perfectly safe and out of danger, I feel nowhere in the game world should be a permanent safe space.

 

That's something I'll never understand. Security is a basic human need. Is it so hard to understand that some players also have this need for a game ? Not every player is constantly looking for thrills and fights. These players often take the position of the one who collects resources or makes tools in a group, and that's an important role to play in the game.

 

This doesn't mean that these players don't fight zombies at all or sit in their underground base during the Bloodmoon Horde. For example, in Alpha 16, I had an underground base for my workstations and storage, and I had a separate base to fight the horde.

 

It's also important for practical reasons to have a safe place. If you leave your base you don't want to come back and find out that a wandering horde has taken its way through the base and destroyed what you have built up with difficulty.

There are also those who play on servers. If you go in single player AFK you can pause the game but on the server it doesn't work. You would have to log out and people usually don't do that when they go AFK for a short time.

 

I experimented a bit with underground bases in a test game and you have to deal with some limitations regarding the AI here. For example the zombies tend to dig their way through to you if the next entrance is more than 30m away. If you go too deep, the zombies will dig their way through to you. Accordingly it is difficult to build larger bases in the underground.

[Jedo]

I am also in complete agreement about the sandbox nature of the game. If people want to dig a hole and never see a zombie, that's their business.

 

If I want to stand in an open field on horde night and not be hurt by zombies, should I be able to do so?

[OzHawkeye]

If I want to stand in an open field on horde night and not be hurt by zombies, should I be able to do so?

 

Indeed you should be able to, in fact, you already can, and in the next update you'll have even more options, in the in-game menu screen no less, to do precisely that.

 

Edit: Also Zomboid, I cannot even begin to see how you could call Jedo's last post to you "toxic".

[Ghostlight]

If I want to stand in an open field on horde night and not be hurt by zombies, should I be able to do so?

 

Absolutely. And if you feel that is good plan, go for it!

 

But we are discussing zombie behaviour that was added after their basic behaviour has been well-established; and also added specifically to hose a certain playstyle. Big difference.

 

Did standing in a field on horde night work well in a previous build?

[Ghostlight]

8. Random dog packs can be hard to survive if ill equipped and slow and feel pretty cheap, especially early on or if you don't notice them. Actually had a wolf pack on day 1 on my first try on alpha 17 killing me and a friend. Giant wolves who he trapped inside the trader which then somehow got out again by somehow floating over the walls, it looked very glitchy. Should at least allow till around day 5 at the earliest I think and I think before one appears you deserve an audio warning like a "wolf howl".

 

I am as puzzled by this as I am by every other complaint about ninja stealth zombies. When I play I always get an audio cue when an enemy has detected me. Wolves howl, zombies grunt. The audio is good enough that I can tell exactly what direction they are coming from as well. These complaints about stealth zombies sneaking right up on the player are just baffling.

[Jedo]

Indeed you should be able to, in fact, you already can...

 

Come again? I can stand naked in the field with no weapons on horde night on default settings and the zombies won't hurt me?

 

But we are discussing zombie behaviour that was added after their basic behaviour has been well-established; and also added specifically to hose a certain playstyle. Big difference.

 

Did standing in a field on horde night work well in a previous build?

 

Oh, see, I thought we were talking about "sandbox" and what it means. You seemed to indicate that sandbox means "I get to do what I want to do." That is the biggest (and apparently most persistent) misunderstanding of what "sandbox" means.

[OzHawkeye]

Come again? I can stand naked in the field with no weapons on horde night on default settings and the zombies won't hurt me?

 

On default settings? No, you'd most certainly be a blood stain before sunup. ;-)

 

However, the game does include (already) options that the player could select on game creation that would permit that, and in the next release, will have even more options for doing that, and that's all before we get down to XML editing (for example, editing the BM horde to consist of a single deer for example).

 

The point being, the greatest asset of this game is its ease of modding, even when that modding impinges on core mechanics (though some things still cannot be easily modded).

[Spindizzy]

I'm okay with them putting options in to disable diggers/block damage for people who prefer a Minecraft with zombies type experience. You can't always please everyone.

 

Personally the fun objective isn't to exist in the game world but to survive, if there's somewhere I can go where I won't be bothered then I consider that a win for me and no point doing anything else.

 

Things you might consider annoying I might consider a fun twist. Like a random horse demolishing its way through your base. I then get to think of how to redesign it to lessen the effect next time. But you have things like passive defenses and turrets etc.

 

Some more things I thought of;

 

 

10. New perk magazines that give you a mild perk bonus for 30 minutes, I hate them and think they are a terrible idea. They may not be utterly useless but they aren't useful or interesting enough to be a new fairly common found type of item in the game.

 

11. Bears, dogs, wolves etc still have glitchy hitboxes where if you stand on and wall they'll often end up stuck halfway through walls.

 

12. I'm in agreement with others that it's pretty annoying having gateway levels to do even the most basic things, it was pretty frustrated when I first saw I need to learn a skill just to get seeds from plants too. I used to like farming in older versions, I am busy skilling other certain things so my friend is skilling farming and he doesn't even like doing it lol.

 

13. I've probably spent 70% of my time in the new version of the gam chopping down trees while my character becomes out of breath from a couple of hits and starts making farting sounds and when one of the first hordes came I noticed how hilariously bad the block durability was and the zombies go through the tier 2 wood double wall I built like it's nothing anyway.

 

14. WAY more dependant on the trader then used to be. Before it felt like a choice, now I visit pretty much every day as the level gates means I now rely on his vending machines for food supply and use his forge, toolbench if available etc...

 

15. I miss the old gun system but at the same time it didn't make a whole lot of sense finding bits of weapons everywhere and almost never the complete gun. It was more fun than the current system though, shame they couldn't have just tweaked it.

[RipClaw]

However, the game does include (already) options that the player could select on game creation that would permit that, and in the next release, will have even more options for doing that, and that's all before we get down to XML editing (for example, editing the BM horde to consist of a single deer for example).

 

A blood moon horde full of deer. That could be really funny.

 

I know a player who tried to mod in a radioactive ferale chicken wandering horde in A16 but unfortunately didn't work.

[Jedo]

Your first set of points were opinion things of like/dislike. (Great, by the way, even if I disagree.) These two go beyond difference of opinion.

13. I've probably spent 70% of my time in the new version of the gam chopping down trees while my character becomes out of breath from a couple of hits and starts making farting sounds...

 

14. WAY more dependant on the trader then used to be. Before it felt like a choice, now I visit pretty much every day as the level gates means I now rely on his vending machines for food supply and use his forge, toolbench if available etc...

 

I think you're doing it wrong. I don't mean "wrong" in an absolute sense, but wrong in terms of you don't have to experience those problems. I think of the time when I was mowing yards as a teenager for extra spending money. One person had a heavily sloped yard, and I was mowing it up-and-down. When the person kindly pointed out to me that I could mow the hill side-to-side, it was a vast improvement.

 

With just a perk point or two, these problems should disappear. (Well, not the forge/workbench/etc., but stamina and trader dependence.)

[HungryZombie]

9. I fully support and appreciate how it's now more difficult to set up and build an underground base, I would've hated not being able to do it at all but it was far too easy how quickly you could do it and be pretty much perfectly safe and out of danger, I feel nowhere in the game world should be a permanent safe space.

 

Are you enjoying your underground base more now? What tactics are you using to counter the digging zombies?

[HungryZombie]

If I want to stand in an open field on horde night and not be hurt by zombies, should I be able to do so?

 

This is kind of a strawman argument. If you could stand in a field and be safe, that pretty means means there is no threat for anyone, anywhere and I haven't seen anyone argue that.

 

And you can turn zombie spawns off entirely if you want that stand around safe feeling.

 

Underground is just one option to remove you to safety and doesn't effect all the other options.

 

I could be crazy but hiding far underground makes more sense to be safe than standing out in the open.

[fragtzack]

On the topic of "Gating" and all the complaints about the new gating system...

 

I started playing video games in the 70's, first game played was pong. Been doing RPG(chars level and/or gates) games since the 80's, think Bards Tale, Ultima, etc.

 

By far the best gated system I have seen in these 40 years of gaming is in Subnautica. The way Subnautica does this is by requiring items to be found. Sort of the way 7D2D used to do with skill books. In Subnautica, the system of gating is very rewarding and gives great accomplishment feelings to the player without any sort of "argh I have to grind" feeling. Items and armor found give more player stats/power, not grinding XXX kills.

 

IMO, the best gating system for 7D2D would be a combo of old method skillbooks(major gate) + current skill perk system(minor gate).

[RestInPieces]

By far the best gated system I have seen in these 40 years of gaming is in Subnautica. The way Subnautica does this is by requiring items to be found. Sort of the way 7D2D used to do with skill books. In Subnautica, the system of gating is very rewarding and gives great accomplishment feelings to the player without any sort of "argh I have to grind" feeling. Items and armor found give more player stats/power, not grinding XXX kills.

 

IMO, the best gating system for 7D2D would be a combo of old method skillbooks(major gate) + current skill perk system(minor gate).

 

Been saying that for a looooong time and using Subnautica as an example for blueprints/schematics. Recipes being tied to leveling create many problems. Gating recipes with exploration would be best imo. It would work even better in a RWG map and they could gate the recipes with various means, without taking out the randomness factor (but not making it completely random), so that players get them approximately when the devs want them to get them. Subnautica for example achieves that gating with depth and with tools like the blowtorch. Judging by current lootlists though, I'd be amazed if the pimps got that right.

[Jedo]

This is kind of a strawman argument. If you could stand in a field and be safe, that pretty means means there is no threat for anyone, anywhere and I haven't seen anyone argue that.

 

And you can turn zombie spawns off entirely if you want that stand around safe feeling.

 

Underground is just one option to remove you to safety and doesn't effect all the other options.

 

I could be crazy but hiding far underground makes more sense to be safe than standing out in the open.

 

It wasn't meant as a strawman; it was meant as an absurdism. I thought it was at least as absurd as "dig a hole and be safe" (which I did not take to mean a significant base far underground). And the back-and-forth was (I thought) couched in the realm of what should be allowed because it is a "sandbox" game. My only point being (again) that sandbox does not mean limitless freedom. Hell, a sandbox is a bounded play area. TFP is still defining the boundaries of their box. After that, the players can go crazy within those bounds.

 

Also, your suggestion of an alternative mode where anything goes...I've said that one before, and I stand by it.

[fragtzack]

Been saying that for a looooong time and using Subnautica as an example for blueprints/schematics. Recipes being tied to leveling create many problems. Gating recipes with exploration would be best imo. It would work even better in a RWG map and they could gate the recipes with various means, without taking out the randomness factor (but not making it completely random), so that players get them approximately when the devs want them to get them. Subnautica for example achieves that gating with depth and with tools like the blowtorch. Judging by current lootlists though, I'd be amazed if the pimps got that right.

 

IMO, they could emulate the depth gating that Subnatuica does with areas/biomes. Radiation biome requires rad suit. Toxic gas biome requires special mask. The current gyrocopter could be a great gating mechanism, only with the gyrocopter could you fly over a particular area such as a lava river to reach the other side. How to make that work with RWG would be a challenge.