Roland

Nobody from TFP has yet claimed that they are finished so there is no reason to think that mods are planned as permanent solutions.

This from the guy who prefers horde bases where the traps destroy the whole horde so he doesn't have to get involved himself...?

Yeah, lots of people seem to think that the $25 they spent was an investment and they are members of the board....lol

And this is all I was essentially saying as well but in regards to quests and building. TFP can make it harder for everyone in order to prevent those who rush questing and building or they can leave it alone and allow everyone to play as they will. Those who want more of a struggle can limit themselves much as people currently limit themselves on the type of base they design and choose not to build something they would deem "cheesy". That being said, I am perfectly fine with TFP adding rules that limit any of this stuff that people do to stretch and warp the game into unnatural ways just to "win" a bit faster than anyone else they've read about online. I'm also fine with them adding top menu options that can give a spectrum of how stringent or lax those limitations might be. I just think it is funny that some who lectured me that "Just don't do it" isn't a valid argument on one issue are using that exact sentiment about other issues...lol. It's all the same thing. 7 Days to Die is a hybrid between game and sandbox and everyone has their pet features that are supported by one type or the other. If TFP changes things towards the game end of the spectrum by restricting and making rules then favorite sanboxish features will fade away and people will be angry. If TFP keeps or even moves things more towards the sandbox end of the spectrum which allows for people to choose their own objectives and restrictions, there will be people who want survival game rules enforced who will be disappointed that TFP has abandoned the survival genre.

Tons of studios go out of business even with a great game because of mismanagement of their funds and overextending themselves. TFP is being managed by people who know how to handle money and who have an eye for the future. The Huenink Brothers were already millionaires before they started this venture and were obviously successful at business management when they decided to create this game. Some Joe Randos might criticize that the game has taken too long a time to develop and that TFP is blundering about and mismanaging things. But when you look at the results we see a couple of brothers who worked hard and managed well enough in business to become independently wealthy, and then used that to get a working prototype of a game going that would inspire a successful Kickstarter campaign, and then managed their indie studio and grew it and attracted the talent they needed to deliver a fantastic game that is a great hit even before its full release and despite its lengthy development timeline. They don't plan to stop with this game but have another already in early development and a few other concepts in the planning phase. So where is all their money? Its working hard to ensure that all of this actually happens. As for the Joe Randos who think they know better? Let's see their results. Let's see the fruits of their labor. Let's see their hit game and their growing game studio. Let's see if they are doing much beyond spending their time playing the game that TFP created.

Eating glass is the easiest and fastest antidote. Unfortunately.

ah...my childhood! Often led to getting to the top bunk in the-floor-is-lava style!

I expect people to play in a way that is fun for them and brings them enjoyment. The game design allows people to rush and many do and are perfectly happy doing it and I have no problem with that. I'm glad they can rush and I'm glad they enjoy the game playing in a way that entertains them. Other people rush but then hate that gameplay loop but they still do it. They want the game changed to suit them which is fine for them to ask but until the game is changed for them (or if it never is changed for them) their options are to 1) Put the game away 2) keep playing in a way that is unfun 3) mod the game to their liking 4) Change how they play. I really don't care whether someone rushes or not as long as they are happy. If they are unhappy and complaining then, yes, I'm going to bring out the argument that rushing is ruining their experience and that they should stop doing it until the game design changes to prevent rushing or they should find a mod that helps them. So do I expect people to play like its their first time every time? Of course not. That is definitely not what I have been saying. Even though I impose limits on myself I definitely don't play like its my first time. Fact: If you limit yourself to one quest a day and use only wood for the first two horde nights and then cobblestone for the next two and then finally move to concrete, you are going to experience more of a survival struggle gameplay loop than you will by spamming multiple quests a day and rushing to concrete by Day 7. Do what you want and keep spamming quests and rushing concrete bases and whatever else people do to become 10x more powerful than the game's difficulty progression as quickly as possible and if the result is fun then fantastic. If it isn't and you feel like the survival struggle is gone and you wish it was there then either mod the game or limit yourself until/if the devs change the rules to prevent people from outpacing the game.

Thanks Shape Guy!

What's funny here is that you bolded my entire statement but then parsed only the first half and then claimed I made a contradiction. So here is my full statement: "7 Days to Die does offer a struggle to everyone who hasn't optimized it out of their game by rushing" The qualifier in my statement is that the struggle is present for those that don't erase it by choice. I never stated that the game offers a struggle to everyone period. That was simply you creating a strategic cutoff in the middle of my sentence. I'm pretty sure what you did is obvious to anyone following the conversation... My further statements about limiting myself by choice are perfectly in line with this full statement. I agree it is a problem for survival game play and as I've said a set of rules to enforce survival gameplay would not bother me. Until those rules are in place officially I will continue to self-limit so that I can have a survival game experience. It works. I'm having fun and playing. I guess just doing the same things that bring misery over and over and coming here to complain about it is another choice but not one I subscribe to. I like to do what works. I just offer a different perspective. I'm not gatekeeping your gameplay. By all means keep playing the game in a manner that destroys your fun factor. It's your choice. I've already said I'm all for a change personally. But I also think it needs to be known for full disclosure that changes to the game that add specific rules, by their nature, reduce the sandboxiness of the game. The proof in that pudding is the recent announcement about crafting magazines. How you learn to craft will be defined by a new set of rules in A21 which will change how players can play the game and force looting to a higher degree than now. Those who feel that the rule crimps their sandbox freedom are worried and upset about the change.

100% agree and I have no problem adding rules and boundaries to make this more of a game than a sandbox. But trust me that there will be many others screaming bloody murder the moment an aspect of their sandbox is switched to game mode. It’s more like I’m willing to use the sandbox nature of the game to self limit myself so that I can role play horror survival. That way I don’t step on anyone else’s toes by demanding a whole swath of the sandbox get formalized into a game with hard and fast rules. At the least, limiting myself is a solution for ongoing enjoyment until the devs add rules that limit the game for me. Either way it’s a win. Instead of hating the game because it’s boring since I had my concrete base since day five so there is no threat and no survival, I role play limits and don’t rush to concrete and it’s fun and I’m struggling to survive. The way I see it is you rush the progression because you are allowed to and as an experienced player you know how to and so you feel no challenge. From Day one you are far beyond the threats the game can deliver. I refuse to rush and just do some of everything as my mood or necessity dictates and so I am often behind or right with the threat level of the game and so I actually do experience a struggle to survive. We both want that struggle to survive. You just choose to move beyond it asap. I have to disagree. It is because you are an experienced player that you intuitively know your routes ahead of time. You aren’t the type to use exploits per se but still your experience and knwledge give you an edge over a new player. Most new players flounder about and have a tough time preparing for the very first blood moon while you probably already have at least some of your base built with concrete. Experience in the game is huge for being able to rocket beyond the threats that equal survival gameplay.

That's not my argument either. Besides, I already know that quests are being expanded again in A21. Let's be clear about what you mean when you say quests need to be tweaked. You are saying that they need to be limited somehow. That's fine by me. I would rather 7 Days to Die be more of a game than a sandbox anyway. But, just so you understand, by limiting quests in order to bring them to heel so that they no longer overwhelm the gameplay loop like they currently do, the devs would literally be forcing a particular gameplay style. You are asking the devs to LITERALLY force us to play a particular way even as you are complaining that they FIGURATIVELY force us to play a particular way now simply because the option to do unlimited quests exists. I just want the people to know I'm happy self-limiting how I play quests and how I use the trader but if the devs decide to impose limits and force us to a more limited questing game that isn't going to bother me either....but it might bother some of you. Just saying...

7 Days to Die does offer a struggle to everyone who hasn't optimized it out of their game by rushing. "Survival" gameplay is created by the threats to your life. I am saying that as an experienced player, by limiting myself and not playing the game with a focus on always taking the optimal path and always using my time to rush the progression in grindy unnatural ways, I do not outpace the threats and therefore I do experience survival gameplay. As an experienced player, you know all the ins and outs of the game and can optimize your play in such a way that any and all threats the game has can be outpaced and left in the dust which means you are not experiencing survival gameplay at all. Brand new players don't know these strategies and so they do the best they can and are almost always in survival mode. I am happy to have the game remain as it is so that people can choose to experience survival gameplay by not outpacing the threats or to rush and play the game as a god of the apocalypse and never feel danger from any threats because of what they chose to do. You want the game changed in a way to prevent you from rushing because you recognize that you don't like the state of the game once you've rushed but you also can't help yourself and will rush every time even knowing that you are erasing the survival gameplay as you do. The problem is that will destroy the gameplay of those who rush and like the result of rushing.

Okay, now for the rest.... I maintain that every weapon in the game is good enough to kill zombies. Some work better than others and some work differently than others. If you perk into a weapon then it is going to be the best at killing zombies but that doesn't mean you couldn't do it with an unperked weapon. Having different weapons with different strengths and weaknesses makes the game play differently each time you play. Making all the guns equal would make the gameplay feel samey no matter what weapon you picked up. It wouldn't matter if it was a spear or a club or a shotgun or an AK47 if they all killed equally well. For that reason I am glad the weapons are different and some lead to more challenging playthroughs. For someone who will only play with the best, that means the rest are just backup weapons. For someone who is willing to play with a different kit each time, that means having fun and working through different challenges several times over. The only difference is in the perspective of the player. There is no way to develop for players who are chronically obsessed with the one most efficient route. No matter what changes or balancing is done there will always be one way that is perceived as the new best path and those players will quickly get bored of the one and only way they choose to play (they call it forced lol) and then are back to chiding the developers for a re-balance. In addition, if developers listen to those players and attempt to do it then all the paths become equal and it doesn't matter which one you take and so for everyone else the game feels samey and loses its replay value. Best option for developers is to ignore hardcore min/maxers completely. Make the game that they envision people playing if they aren't trying to speed run and either: A) Put restrictions and rules in place that block min/maxers from rushing the game or B) Allow gamers to do as they wish and people will choose to either play naturally or rush. I'm all for a limit on daily quests and a daily cap on xp earned from the same activity. Make it so you can only do 1 quest a day per trader and xp from doing a particular activity diminishes throughout the day until it finally reaches zero and doesn't regen until the next day. That would slow people the hell down for sure....but also take freedom away. I'm happy to continue to self limit how many quests I do since it also allows someone else to spam quests all they want. In my game quests are not broken. They are perfect because I don't abuse them. So here are our types of gamers 1) Controls self from abusing quests and is pleased with how the game plays. 2) Spams quests and is pleased with how the game plays. 3) Spams quests and is not pleased because it dominates their game but they can't limit themselves. It is only the third group who isn't happy and if they get what they want it won't really affect the first group since they self limit already but the second group will get screwed by actually being forced by the game to not be able to play as they wish. Should the group who has impulse control problems and weak self-discipline and claims to be "forced" when there is no actual mechanism in place forcing be the ones to dictate that the second group is actually going to start getting forced by actual rules and mechanics that prevent them from playing the way they like? As a member of the first group it wouldn't bother me but you guys in the third group could also read a few self-help books and save the rest of us a lot of trouble.... I don't think you've played in awhile... I agree that the survival game should be challenging and in limiting myself I make it more challenging. Obsessively choosing the optimal path makes the game less challenging. If you race to concrete blocks before the first bloodmoon then you have basically destroyed the challenge of surviving the horde because it won't ever be strong enough to overcome what you have done by rushing. I want the challenge of survival so I don't rush. I play each day trying to mirror what I think I would do in the actual situation (to a degree, of course). I don't try and farm xp using whatever best activity has been determined to be the current flavor for grinding all so I can be level 20 by day 3 and have my concrete base by day 7. I know that concrete isn't even close to necessary until at least the 3rd or 4th hordenight so work with wood and cobblestone for the first few weeks and that has proven to be sufficient for survival. It also makes for some extremely fun hordenights which would have been a lot more ho hum if I had concrete from the very beginning. I like clearing towns because that feels more thematic and realistic to what I would do rather than just going to the same few quest locations over and over and over. So I take one job a day and spend time exploring and clearing out other POIs without a quest. Does this cause me to fail at survival? No way. I'm definitely keeping up with the progression the game follows to kill me. So you reach level 100 on day 40 and I reach level 100 on day 90 and we both survive and get to the point where we feel we won. Who cares that you did it 50 days faster than I did? There is no prize for than other than in your own mind. I play on Warrior difficulty and feel that my more casual and more natural progress through the development path is more than equal to the task of the challenge of survival. If I upped the difficulty another level I might need to be a bit more efficient but I can't believe it would be by much more and certainly not to the levels people here describe when they come to complain about where their own choices landed them.

Prove to me that it must be done quickly. I don't do it quickly and survive just fine. That's on warrior difficulty which is where I prefer the game and is default +2. I'm betting that even at highest difficulty you don't have to spam quest to stay ahead of the difficulty curve. You just choose to do so. Its like the very first horde night on day 7 could easily be survived with a wood base because it is such a cakewalk. But how many people push to have concrete in place before their first hordenight? That is far far far more efficiency than is needed to survive and nothing forces you to go that far even if it is allowed as a possibility. I already said that if you are playing competitively then of course you must keep up and try to surpass those you are against. But in most cases people aren't talking about PvP. Is that what you have been talking about all along? PvP gameplay? I've been talking from the perspective of single player and cooperative where it doesn't matter whether you are the highest level character or not.

Im glad you finally see how an LBD model harms gameplay. I purposely limit myself on quests for the sake of preserving my own fun much in the way I used to limit myself on spamming crafting or specific skill activities. No. I’m living proof that this statement isn’t a universal truth. I’m not the only one. I know that there are many who play differently and focus on other goals than rushing the progression in ways that are unnatural just because it’s possible to do so. Only in a PvP competitive environment is anyone forced to find the most lucrative and efficient progression paths. Sure it is. Not only that but it is a viable practical philosophy I utilize whenever I play. The first time I utilized it was when I decided to play Ironman and deleted my own game and started over after I died. It’s called “free will” and I don’t just argue for it, I live by it as well. You can tell me all day long that the game forces us to spam quest after quest after quest but since I don’t do that AND I successfully survive I just don’t believe you. I’ll have to address the rest of your post later….

I don't think you represent the typical player. I am no where near where you seem to be in the progression by day 28. That's still just the 4th blood moon event. I would have to agree that this void you are experience probably is due to your skills and the speed at which you can progress. As you say, you would have to consciously limit yourself in what you do to not skyrocket past the game's difficulty progression. The pimps could enact limits but if they do people will be incensed for being artificially slowed down. They could increase difficulty in a number of ways but that is usually just a temporary fix as within days to weeks a new min/max meta will emerge and players will be racing up the progression tree in no time. Options would be best admittedly. An option to limit how many quests a day you can do per trader. An option to increase the cost of perks would allow people to choose to be slowed. An option to increase the gamestage rate of growth but slow the lootstage rate of growth. Of course, as players we can always make choices that emphasize story and living through each day rather than choices that emphasize character growth. Only do one quest a day and take your time about doing it. Stick to wood blocks during the first couple of weeks and then cobblestone blocks the next couple of weeks and then concrete blocks after that. Hopefully there will be cool options to set the rules of the world to settings that keep you from getting to endgame by Day 28 instead of you having to self limit.

They do listen but they don't always heed--especially at this stage of development where they are wrapping things up. At the end of the day this is their game and their vision. With thousands of players they are going to get thousands of likes and dislikes and very few people say, "I recognize the design that TFP went with is a good design even though I personally don't care for it." Most people call the game garbage and accuse the devs of not being able to develop their way out of a paper bag if the game is not to their own personal liking. LBD may seem like the most sensible natural and wtf-not ideas to you and many others. However, there are plenty of players who don't like the gameplay that it creates. So who should TFP heed? The answer is neither. They should make the game according to their own vision and give lots of freedom to modders and make sure there are lots of options available in the final version. Ideas are a dime a dozen and every idea you come up with there will be another person who paid hard-earned money who hates your idea and would be angry if TFP listened to you and implemented your ideas. TFP listens and considers but then ultimately does what their team judges to be best and whatever that is there will be haters who accuse them of not listening to the community and ruining their game, there will be fans who are convinced they posted all the ideas that TFP went with first and feel good that TFP listened and heeded them, and there will be lots of brand new players who never followed development at all and who pick up the game for the first time ever without any history to draw upon and will either enjoy or dislike the game. I can tell you this with my insider knowledge: I would be absolutely shocked if LBD came back to this game for skill progression in any degree. I would also be shocked if they aren't considering it for one of their future games. There are no plans whatsoever to bring back LBD for this game. They have made that very clear. That being said, the current quest system does follow an LBD model. You can do quests without limit and doing them increases your ability to quest incrementally until you reach tier 5 quests. There is no way to get better at questing other than by doing quests. I, personally, like to look at how the current quest system overwhelms and dominates any other gameplay choices as a reminder for why an LBD model isn't always a good choice for games like this. I notice how loathe people are to start the whole questing process again from the beginning when they get a new trader as a reminder of how LBD can kill replay value in a game such as this. Quests could be greatly improved by making them less LBD-like. Something to think about.

We can explore the multiverse of what ifs forever but what it comes down to is results. This game still inspires people to devote a thousand hours to playing it. You’re saying that they might have enjoyed 3k hours vs the 1k they are getting now. Most games studios are thrilled if they can keep the attention of a player for 20-40 hours on their game. I’d love to see a negative review where someone complains that they could only eke out 1k hours of entertainment.

You won’t be able to build that gyrocopter until you read enough of the right magazine. You will also be able to craft a printing press if you can find and read enough of that magazine. Good Luck!

heheh…sorry. Thought I was clarifying but I guess I got it wrong. Thanks for clarifying your own thoughts. It’s pretty clear I didn’t understand what you were trying to say either.

I'm not adding new information. I'm just reiterating what I already said.... The main goals are that it 1) spawns correctly in rwg, 2) behaves well around other blocks, and 3) doesn't hurt performance. Those of you imagining all sorts of new features associated with a "water update" should lower your expectations. It is a water update to fix the current state of water and not to bring Subnautica into the mix. There are lots of water associated features that people really want TFP to add to the game and pretty much all of these are probably beyond the scope of what they are doing for A21. The current impact of water in the game is likely to remain mostly the same but water blocks are broken in a number of ways and they are set on fixing them. Sorry to be a downer. If you expect water to mostly stay the same as far as gameplay but be fixed and no longer act buggy or wonky like it currently does then you will have reasonable expectations and IF TFP does something extra or adds a water related feature or two then it will be a happy surprise.

If you go out and loot you will find magazines. If you stay at the base you won't. That's how it's balanced. You can still perk into tools and weapons of choice and become very proficient at using them but you won't be able to craft your own without doing something to acquire magazines and build your knowledge. Magazines are more likely to be found in places that match up thematically with their topic. So you will find more mechanical themed magazines at gas stations and cooking magazines in kitchens than vice versa. But you also find a random mix of everything everywhere. There is no guarantee of getting the magazine you have perked into but there is a boost to the probability of getting it so you will often find the books you need mixed in with others randomly. But it is subtle so you definitely don't feel like you are only getting the mags that match your specialties. As of now there are tons of magazines everywhere. Getting a bookshelf or filing cabinet or mailbox that is just paper is pretty rare now. Whether that will get nerfed or not will depend on continued play.

Not. another. drop. of. information.

Yeah! And what about the promise of gambling away my farm? If A21 doesn't let me put all my potatoes and corn on the line at the zombie dog races I will be livid! LI-VID!!