Roland

Okay. You'll be able to confirm that for yourself once A21 releases to experimental. Agreed. But you are talking about realism vs gameplay in that pronouncement. The Navezgane Universe is already full of dumb oddities that you've already accepted and are perfectly fine forgiving for the sake of the fun gameplay you like. This one you don't care about since you'd rather TFP focus on cool tech to help with the increasing blood moon instead of early game water concerns so you aren't going to forgive and you are going to pull the realism card. I get it. This game is quirky and off-kilter. It is not a simulation. You will either accept the oddities or you won't. The game can definitely be modded to be more simulation-like if realism is what you want. I agree that it may work for some and it may not work for others. I'm not sure what you mean by reflexive defending. I'm simply reporting information based on my experience. I know it isn't realistic. I also have enjoyed the changes to water. I'm not trying to speak for 90% of the player base. I'm saying that the progression of developing a renewable water source is more interesting and fun in A21 than it previously has been for me. I'm excited for others to play with it. The only time I defend is when someone states an inaccurate assumption or speculation about motive or reasons behind the change. Why? Because I'm an eyewitness who can state what was witnessed rather than some rando who is guessing. Maybe you like the guesses by randos. You can always put me on ignore if you don't like the reports I make of actual experience with A21 and actual conversations with the team. I dunno...maybe you're talking about others who like the sound of the changes and start defending and saying we should trust and play it first before criticizing? If that's the case then I guess I would ask why the reflexive criticizing? Where does that come from? Worries the game will suffer and be worse? Most people around here are more hopeful than worried. They tend to defend what they hope will be good. Maybe you meant something else. You'll have to clarify maybe. I can't argue with that. This game is often not logical at all. As players we pick and choose what violations of logic are okay by us and which are not. You are picking and choosing because I know I could find something absolutely stupid and illogical about this game in regards to reality that you not only won't complain about but that you would reflexively defend because it supports the gameplay you enjoy. We all do it. Sorry that empty jars is your breaking point. I shrugged years ago and now just go with it and stupid or not I have fun.

It was....almost immediately after the schematics were introduced because players gave feedback at the time that it was needed. I never buy a book or schematic that I already have because of the closed book/open book icon that exists right on the image of the book or schematic you wish to get. I have no problem selling duplicate books and schematics because I can see at a glance the graphic that tells me I read it. Really.....and what pray tell is that degree and how easy is it to do exactly? Yes it does and always has. You open the player interface and flip to the quest tab (Exclamation Mark) and make sure the tutorial quest is selected as the active quest (it should be) and then you.......CANCEL IT. The icon looks like a crossed out exclamation mark inside a circle. You can turn off every quest in the game by canceling it. Yes it does. And it does for other extended settings as well. The xml files are the deepest and most versatile extended settings options that exist. It might take a bit of getting used to but you can easily adjust recipes, loot settings, zombie settings, and more with much greater depth and detail than what appears in the options menu. I'll grant that these aren't perfect but the game also isn't finished yet. A21 greatly improves the POI description with the quest description. I've read plans to add a decomposing effect to corpses so that they can be despawned faster without just having them pop out of existence. If your beef is that it is taking too long to do these things and they should have been done long ago, I can't argue with your opinion or preferences about development timelines. Others are fine continuing to follow development for as long as it takes. Which things? The ones that are already in game that you apparently weren't aware of or the things that are still pending....? I don't think fans are split on all things. We have been discussing one change regarding the removal of empty jars upon which it seems fans are split. Some are excited to try the change and others think there are bigger fish to fry and wonder why time was wasted on making the change. Some think it sounds terrible and others think it sounds like fun. Some already know they won't be able to suspend disbelief while others have already let it go. Well sure anyone can make a mistake. I'm not saying TFP can't make a mistake. I haven't personally agreed with every design choice although that doesn't prove their choice was a mistake-- only that I wouldn't do things that way if I had final development say. I'm not sure why you think I'm defending TFP about being infallible. I'm not. I'm simply describing the change, my own personal experience with it, and dispelling incorrect assumptions that some people are making (such as the idea that a graphic to show whether a book or schematic has been read is long overdue...)

This hasn't really come up yet but you should know that while vitamins and the purifier mod will protect you from contracting dysintery, they don't protect you from the -5 hp hit you take from every gulp of murky water. It isn't a huge deal to supplement your murky water diet with first aid items to bring your health back up after hydrating yourself on the murk but it is a difference between A21 and A20 that could affect the playstyle you describe. In A20 murky water doesn't affect your character's health at all but in A21 it does and vitamins and purifiers don't mitigate that. That's not how it went down. Your speculation is wrong. Also, water is still harvestable in A21 so that premise is also wrong. Incorrect. Harvesting water is not removed in A21. You can drink as much water as you wish from a water source. You just can't fill up bottles to make infinitely renewable pure water from day one. So staying hydrated is no problem as long as you use murky water and supplement your health loss with first aid items. But characterizing water as not harvestable is inaccurate. You can harvest it from any stream, gutter, sewer, lake, pool, or water treatment plant you find. You just can't store it and transport it in empty jars that are returned to you to do it all again. Once you have dew collectors built you can also harvest water from those on a predictable schedule. I doubt any playable scenarios have been reduced. Some will be more challenging but that should be good news to anyone who is a veteran of this game. More challenge scenarios are always a good and welcome thing.

If you were able to recover your world and it is just your character progression that you need to recover you can open the command console by typing F1 and then type: giveselfxp 50000 You can repeat that command and increase or decrease the number to fine tune how many levels you jump until you get back to whatever level you were at. Then just respend the points on whatever perks you want. For your gear, type: cm into the command console Then, open the interface and click on the lightbulb icon over to the far right. Now you should be able to search for and give yourself anything you lost. There is a command to increase the day but I can't remember it. Someone else can probably help out with that.

They know but it is a joke. There is a lot of humor and silly stuff embedded in the game. Drinking an iced drink to help you survive in an icy biome is funny. This game was never meant to be a simulation. "fans" are made up of many and divers groups and sub-groups of players according to the preferences they share. All companies listen to their fans and when they make a decision there will always be a group that can claim that the devs were following their feedback. You just need to get into the right group and stop assuming that your group is representative of all "fans".

I like it. I like that I am drinking murky water at times in the beginning. I like building the dew collectors. They are a nice new objective that competes with all the other start of game objectives you have. Before when I'd open a cupboard in a some POI and there would be pure water inside I wouldn't even think about it as I pressed R to auto loot the cabinet and add that drinkable water to the stack already in my inventory. Now it feels great to loot pure water from the dew collector you built. The removed empty jars, the dew collectors, the new magazine learn to craft by looting all combine to make the experience fun and interesting. As veteran player it did take some adaptation on my part but it is fun. I doubt simply adjusting stack limits and recipe costs would have had the same effect these changes have had. I understand that fun is subjective, though, and not everyone will like the change and I'm sure we will hear some feedback on it after experimental hits. But I think we will get a lot of positive feedback about the changes as well.

The Water Purifier Mod recipe is still in the game but you have to find the schematic in order to be able to craft it. The pure mineral water recipe is also still in the game if you find Wasteland Treasures Volume 5.

First of all, they HAVE been optimizing the game but they are also adding things to the game still so gains in performance are often spent in order to get the next feature in. Once the game is feature complete then all optimizations will be 100% for increasing performance. The game is almost feature complete so we are close. Second of all, the defenders of 7 Days aren't involved AT ALL with optimizing the code. Whether they retort with "It's Alpha" or join you with "FIX IT NOW!!!!" the optimizations will not proceed any faster. When you host the game on the same computer you are playing on you significantly increase the load on that computer. If you look at the required specs listed on Steam for the game it notes that when hosting a game on the same machine you are using to play you need to double the listed requirements. A dedicated server takes a huge load off of the host so that the game runs smoother for everyone. The other advantage of a dedicated server is that anyone can join the world and play at any time. Hosted games can only be played when the host is playing. So if I am hosting and want to go to bed but my three buddies still want to play, they can't if I log off and go to sleep. But on a dedicated server, they could keep playing without me. Finally, this game is intended for up to 8 players. Sure. Just make sure that the person with the best rig, most stable internet connection, and most flexible and open schedule for gaming among you is the host. Actually just realizing that 7 Days to Die is their very first game could get you to that conclusion.

You unlock the recipe by reading Forge Ahead magazines (2 or 3 if I remember correctly) You craft it and place it somewhere with open sky above it. It automatically starts making water until at some point there will be a jar of clean water. It will do this three times and then stop until you remove the water. Then it will begin again.

I was responding to someone who was saying that in A20 it is easy to get a second or third tier gun in the first couple days. That seems to be much more rare in A21. The first two days of free weather protection has been removed so exploiting that to get an easy higher lootstage from the more difficult biomes is not going to be as simple as it has been. Trader rewards are more focused on magazine acquisition now. I haven’t even been offered a weapon yet but I’ve only made it to tier two quests before having to start over. You’re welcome. We’ve made such things easy for you after all.

Yes. I just demonstrated how as containers, jars act like all other containers. Now, if you’d like to talk about the separate issue of water survival va other aspects of survival that’s fair. Agreed that shelter is super easy to come by and definitely easier in A21 than hydration maintenance. Agree that hunting is too easy but disagree that farming is the stroll in the park you claim. You are glossing over having to spend points in LOTL and creating the farm plots. I’d say that building a water farm is comparable to building a crop farm. If setting up a crop farm is simple to you then so will water be about as easy. Again you are just glossing over the perk points needed and the material gathering needed. You could also just say that after reading a couple forge ahead magazines and placing a few dew collectors wam bam easy peasy by day 6 you’ve solved water. So if we’re just going to gloss the details we can say water is pretty consistent with these other things. yeah just tear down a parking lot of cars with that free wrench in your starting inventory. Wrenches are a lot more rare in loot in A21 (as are weapons) so nobody is going to be disassembling stuff right away unless extremely lucky. You also act like chemistry stations are available easily. In fact the process of crafting a workstation in order to produce gas is pretty consistent with crafting a workstation to produce water. In A21 the dew collector is the very first item on the Forge Ahead ladder while a chemistry station is one of the last items so water is going to be easier to get up and running than gas and yet in a very parallel manner. In this case you are comparing A20 mechanics with an A21 mechanic. Perks will no longer unlock first aid recipes so your comparison doesn’t even track. This is why it is better to try changes out in the context of the new version rather than try to understand it from the perspective of the old version. There is no way that you will understand the changes until you can play them in the context of the overall A21 experience. That’s what early access is for. Nope. Didn’t need that one. In fact it’s your experience with the A20 version and inexperience with all of the A21 changes and how they work together that is getting in your way. Now, maybe after you become experienced with A21 you may decide that hydration survival is disproportionately tougher than the other aspects of survival. We definitely will appreciate that feedback.

Sorry but I’m on team Milkshake! plus it would be hilarious and right in line with Pimp humor for Big Mama to have a 100% chance of having a jar of milk in any loot bag she drops… 😂 Nobody asked for Big Mama to not drop milk!!!

It could have been but as @schwanz9000 stated, this change does bring consistency to the universe. No other substance in a container returns the empty container. Only canned food and drink did. Now those two exceptions work the same way as the rest and are no longer exceptions. Use oil —> no empty oil can returns and you can’t craft an empty oil can. Use gas —> no empty gas can returns and you can’t craft an empty gas can. Use stew —> no empty bowl returns and you can’t craft an empty bowl. Use acid —> no empty bottle returns and you can’t craft an empty acid bottle There was never four pages devoted to the weirdness of those things and people have always just accepted it. Players new to A21 will most likely accept drinks and food not returning an empty container as well. It’s just us who need to adapt and it doesn’t take long at all. Once I accepted that empty jars were out of the game I no longer thought about it. Besides….when this game originally started you did not get your jar returned. There were lots of jokes and memes posted about “where do the jars go?!?” So this isn’t even a new change. It is reverting the game back to its classic roots before console versions started influencing everything. I guess not being able to craft an empty bottle is new though. So half classic half progressive.

Ive already broken down why the empty jars were removed and how it changes the game and why having an infinitely refillable container is a bad idea—several times. Go back and read so you can understand why the change was made. No change is made simply to make a change. That isn’t how game design works. These changes were made after team meetings in which the ramifications were discussed and then tested. When it comes out in experimental it will be further tested by the overall community. I know some people won’t like it but I’m pretty confident most will enjoy the change and appreciate having a new type of workstation to craft and a new type of farm to create—all while making the game more consistent with itself. I’d love to hear an explanation of why this is seen by some as the best way to design a game. Really. For this game the design comes from the proven professional developers and adjustments to that design comes from player feedback after they’ve had a chance to play it. I occasionally read people who criticize a change on the basis that nobody asked for it as if that is all the reason needed for why the change shouldn’t have happened. Others seem to want the devs to poll the players before they make a design decision in order to get the okay to proceed. Say what?!? That will come when post release updates come. The objective now is to polish and refine and finalize everything for what the base game is going to offer that the majority of new players is going to experience. An update that adds content to expand gameplay for Days 50 - 100 would be exactly the type of thing to extend the game once it is finished. You’re asking for version 1.5 while the devs are working on version 1.0. That is the risk of becoming a veteran player while the game is in early access. You play out the whole unfinished base game before it is done and then you have a long wait for them to finish the base game and then start working on extended game updates before you are going to see something new in the end game. They make milk from anything these days. We could have pine cone milk or maple acorn milk, or boar milk, or Arlene milk…. Too far?

Well the post I responded to specifically mentioned kitchens and not whole POIs. Bathroom toilets have a pretty even chance of giving a murky water or paper. Drink dispensors, water jugs, and other drink themed containers have a high chance of containing murky water. The point of my post was to show that in A20 if you raided 5 kitchens you could easily come away with several jars that could be easily refilled forever. You might find a few empty jars, some pure water, a coffee, and some murky water but you would gain empty jars from all the drinks and be able to use all those jars to easily replenish your water supply. In A21 you will come away with much less and no free empty jars that can be refilled. I tested it after responding and I raided 5 kitchens in five different houses and ended up with 2 murky water and 1 coffee. If I had raided the bathrooms I probably would have had more murky water but the challenge to the new system that was issued was that the new meta would be to raid five kitchens and once again have a pot and plenty of water to boil so once again no water challenge. I wanted to show that that was not the case and even adding in the bathrooms that wouldn't necessarily be the case because of the key change-- no more empty jars. Whatever water you found would be a one time use and then you would have to find more. Hope that clarifies. There is plenty of murky water for drinking. You can directly drink from any water source after all. Nobody should ever have to suffer the effects of dehydration if they are willing to drink murky water. If you are doing a lot of looting you will find murky water that can be brought home to boil. I guess it depends on how much you scavenge if you want to have "plenty" of murky water in your inventory.

I threw out the number 10+. I certainly am not going to need 10+ but others will want to. It definitely isn't necessary to surround your base by them if you don't want to. As I mentioned to Ripclaw, 6 collectors would satisfy his needs for 100 glue per week. Given that Schwanz said there is now more glue in loot he could probably get by with fewer. 10 dew collectors will produce 30 pure water per day. That is in addition to any murky water you find and boil. If you don't think you would need that much water then it won't take 10 dew collectors. <shrug> This is the crux of your dilemma right here and the key to your solution is modding. If you want to play in a way that completely outside the scope of the basic game then you are obviously going to have to change some things about the basic game. My suggestion would be to make a recipe for murky water out of the pot and snow. Then again by time you make it to your second map you are sure to know the goldenrod tea recipe so you could drink straight from streams and lakes, use a first aid kit to restore your health, and top it off with a goldenrod tea to counteract the dysintery if you get it.

I misspoke. I was thinking empty jars but typed “water bottles”. They decided to remove empty jars because they were infinitely reusable. By removing empty jars they made murky water uncraftable and all drinks one time use “potions”. Empty cans have also been removed. Anything in the game that is in a container no longer returns an empty version of that container when used. The game is actually more consistent than it ever has been.

That's 6 dew collectors dedicated to glue production in order to have enough within 6 days so you have an extra day to finish up the crafting. That's not exactly a herculean task. Maybe if you had to have 20 collectors that you had to harvest every day you might have a point about how tough it will be to mass produce 100 glue a week. But six?

I've never yet found one in loot but I've bought them from traders for 1500 Dukes a pop. You might be screwed but they may also be a rare loot drop that I haven't found yet. You could make them a loot drop or even make them craftable in order to support your anti-trader gamestyle. Zztong had some great recipe ideas up above for crafting a filter.

If the OP could just answer the pertinent question of whether this was hosted on one of the player's computers or whether this was a dedicated server you all joined, we could offer some better advice on how to improve the play experience. My gut tells me the OP just came on to throw some shade and doesn't really care about improving the play experience but I would be happy to be mistaken.

Worse. Go watch YouTube or Twitch...

That would make your life easier right? 😜

It was removed at some point and is returning in A21. I know. The change was not to make it more complex. The change was made to remove water bottles. It just happens to make the process of having a renewable water source a bit more complex through the process of building a water farm over time as opposed to bringing home 10+ bottles on day one. I wasn't saying that TFP was trying to make a more complex game with this change. 100% agree and 100% am confused about why since Joel is such a Fallout fan. I know they started moving towards it and had plans to have radiation zones within biomes and even for individual POIs. I have no idea why nothing along those lines has materialized yet.

The process to get a renewable water source is what I was referring to. You are comparing getting a jar of boiled water in A20 to getting a jar of boiled water in A21 which is not what I was talking about. Plus the recipe to make the collector is quite a bit more work than filling a water bottle and boiling it. So I will say again that for establishing a renewable drinking water source: Before: Step 1) Acquire 10+ bottles A21: Step 1) Unlock the Dew Collector Recipe Step 2) Acquire the ingredients for 10+ Collectors Its not a lot of additional complication but it is more and takes a lot longer to accomplish. The alternate ideas you had while pooping and also the one that limits you to a stack of 1 bottle are interesting as well. Try simulating them and see if they play out as fun. I get it that the removal of bottles is going to cause havok for you and Khaine as modders. Whatever recipes and processes you guys put in place that requires empty bottles to be in the game are going to be kaput and you guys will have to go back and overhaul it. Maybe you can just replace empty bottles with broken glass and the forging of the broken glass into bottles part is just abstracted or mod the pot to be a filled pot which could then take the place of bottles of murky water. Who knows, maybe Allan will look at some of these ideas and incorporate some of it.