Roland

<property name="MinConvertTime" value="21600" /> <!-- 21600 Game Seconds = 6 Game Hours --> <property name="MaxConvertTime" value="36000" /> <!-- 36000 Game Seconds = 10 Game Hours --> <property name="ConvertToItem" value="drinkJarBoiledWater" /> <property name="SkyDetectOffset" value="0.5,2.5,0.5" /> <property name="SkyDetectSphere" value="0" /> Looks like it takes from 6 - 10 game hours to generate a jar of water. Also, looks like one simple name edit could make it produce murky water instead if you wanted that challenge. Finally, it does appear that it tries to detect the sky above it so it cannot be built completely inside your base and work. It holds up to 3 units of water.

Molotovs use cloth, gas, and oil. Still craftable but no bottles in the recipe.

Well, that's it. My entire point is that the existence of empty bottles is what allows us to create drinkable water on a scale that invalidates any kind of struggle. But, maybe there is an "and" after all. Perhaps empty bottles is also what allows us to create glue on a scale that invalidates any kind of struggle in the mid to late game. We ALWAYS have enough glue/duct tape to ALWAYS have our best weapon in good repair and never have to make do with backups. We never run out of molotovs and explosives and our weapons all work all horde night long because our scale of production was unrealistically large and too simple to get up and running too quickly. If you are having to choose between drinking and repair kits by day 22 in the A20 system then for sure you are going to have to make tough choices and possibly have to either go into a horde night with suboptimal preparations or at least be down to the back up weaponry by the end of it. In the long run, glue won't be a problem and you will be back to mass producing stuff that requires it and duct tape but you will need to build your water farm first. Honestly, this is a change from simplistic to complex which is what everyone claims to want. They didn't dumb things down but added a new workstation that opens up a new type of farming. And really it isn't a whole new system. All they did was add a dew collector that produces pure water and removed empty bottles and they reverted back to requiring a pot to boil water.

I don't know that looting 1-3 jars of water from all those sources is more interesting than crafting dew collectors and developing a water farm. Are you saying that the bottles could not be refilled? That would be kind of the same thing I guess but still weird since you would have all these bottles but not be able to refill them. If you could refill the bottles in UL then the problem wasn't solved because once you have infinitely re-usable bottles in your inventory the hydration game is over. At least with the A21 changes there is a way to get renewable water but it is going to take time and progression to get there which makes it interesting-- to me at least.

I don't know about that. You still ended up with dozens of empty bottles pretty quickly in A16 which in a single run to the nearest water source could all be refilled and reboiled. The removal of empty jars and hence the change that all drinks are now one-offs is a much more significant change than you are giving credit. It is not the same result as just making murky water give less hydration or making dysentary more common or require a pot to boil. The ability for ANY drink to return an empty bottle which can then be infinitely refilled is definitely one of the key reasons water has never been a struggle. So it may be weird to not have empty bottles any longer but it isn't JUST weird as it definitely does have an impact you can feel and none of the things you suggested yield the same effect as the removal of empty bottles does. Like I said, anyone can simulate it right now to get the gist of it by throwing away every empty bottle they find or get after drinking. It won't be exactly the same since there is no pure water to be found anywhere and there is more water in loot in A20 than there is in A21.

The point is not to make everyone thirstier. The point is make it so that having an easily renewable source of good water is more of a process and journey. The removal of empty bottles is key to that because empty bottles made having renewable good water attainable almost instantly. With empty bottles gone you will be glad to get any murky water you find in loot for a lot longer into the game because finding more water is the only way to replenish your stores. We have become so ingrained with the idea that after a day of looting we will have a large stack of empty bottles that can be re-used forever that the idea that any water we find now is a one use fix, is tough to imagine. You can sort of try it out now by immediately throwing away any empty bottle you get. Keep filled bottles and use them but then throw them away. Go one step further and throw away any fresh water you find in loot and only keep murky water and see if there is any change in challenge level for you. It is a sort of role-playing way to play (sorry Gup) but as a little preview into how the removal of empty bottles will affect the game it will let you see for yourself right now what the game will enforce later. Alpha 20: Find about 10 bottles (empty or filled) and your struggle to keep hydrated is over since you have infinite re-uses of those bottles (morning of Day 1) Alpha 21: Get a dew collector farm built and your struggle to keep hydrated is over since they will infinitely regenerate water (Longer but exact length of time will vary)

There's no cover up here. People will get to play it once it is released and they can make up their own minds. I've accurately reported how the dew collector works, what has been changed, and that getting pure water is tougher now. Even if you are going to spam explore kitchen after kitchen to find a pot, that is something you didn't need to do before because you would find empty bottles, pure water, and murky water in those same kitchens. Raid five kitchens and you would probably come away with a pot, 4 bottles of pure water, 6 empty bottles, and a couple bottle of murky water. That would be about 12 bottles you could then refill and reboil forever. The things you found in those kitchens would easily set you up to have pure water always on hand for the rest of the game. In A21 if you raid five kitchens you would probably come away with a pot and 2 bottles of murky water that won't return a jar. So you could take those home and boil them and get two drinks but have no bottles to refill which means you would have to go back out looking for more and not have any equipment for having infinite water supplies for the rest of the game from those five kitchens. You could spam raid 20 kitchens and come home with a few pots and maybe even 10 or more bottles of murky water but no empty bottles for getting more from the nearby lake and once you drank those 20 bottles you would have nothing left to go and refill and repeat. You will have to decide once you play it in your non-biased non-roleplaying fashion if there is any additional challenge or not. I don't think it is challenging per se to stay hydrated since you can always drink murky water. Heck, you could walk over to a city sewer with water in it and slurp up as much as you want with an empty hand anytime and stay hydraded for a health cost. This change does give murky water a larger footprint in the game and it keeps you looking for water since there are no stacks of empty jars that you can refill all at once at any time. You can eventually get to the point of having crates filled with pure water but it is going to be a progression to get to that point and not simply the result of breaking into several kitchens. I personally like the changes and I am not a crook.

I think it could probably be added that snowballs could be boiled for murky water making some of the balance changes to quantities and stack size and yields so that it isn’t really worth it to try and mass produce water that way but if you’re dying of thirst and can dig some snow and convert it to a bit of water to not die that should be doable. @schwanz9000 would have to take a look at it and get the okay from Madmole. Adding your own snowball-to-murky-water recipe and adjusting how many snowballs you can carry in a stack and how many you get from a snow block is the easiest kind of modding there is. But it would be nice to have some more ice smoothie recipes.

I don’t know about moving them. I assume so but haven’t tested it. That depends on the POI designers. They’d have to go back and add them to existing traders and use them for new POIs. There may be a ticket to add one to each trader compound. They would probably contain murk though. You really can’t find pure water in loot any longer! (Although you can buy it)

No. I just remembered wrong. There is no change in that.

The dew collectors should be pretty easy to mod to deliver murk instead of pure water for those that want to test that. Murk is everywhere and it does feel nice to have something you crafted produce something that is +1. It does utilize a filter.

I think the footprint is 3x3 and the height is possibly 3 or 4 blocks? Can’t confirm right now but maybe someone else can. There is not a more advanced version of the dew collector. It is not hard to build but it does take a lot of resources and a part( the filter) that can’t be crafted. In the beginning it will be tough to get multiple made but later it will get easier. As for MP there is no need to modify vending machines or traders. Crafting teas will just be even more important. I am crafting more teas than I ever did before. You have less water now so you really want what you have to go farther and the teas really do help. Plus having a goldenrod tea on hand makes drinking murk less risky. I know that there is going to be a lot of debate over the next while over realism and gameplay and why jars have been removed except as a visual unit of drinkable liquid. I can’t fault anyone for thinking it is weird. This game has always been quirky and weird with the bottles. But it does play fun. It is fun getting the water part of survival managed and it does eventually reach a point where water survival is a breeze and doesn’t matter but the journey is much better……if you can forgive the oddities.

Buckets carry water to transport water voxels from one place to another. If you pour out water from a bucket you’ll get a water voxel. I believe that you could probably drink directly from that water voxel but you can’t change it to bottled murky water or get it into a pot. The reason likely has to do with how having easy to access infinite water destroys any chance of “the struggle”. @madmole would have to describe his thought process or maybe @schwanz9000 who worked on it with him could give more insight. I completely understand what you are saying about this being a weird limitation that runs contrary to reality. I can get water into a bucket and carry it with me. I have a pot on my campfire but I’m not allowed to pour the water in my bucket into the pot on my campfire. It’s just another strange concession of reality to gameplay. vending machines have beverages and they are considerably more expensive in A21.

the dew collectors only produce water. You would then use that water at a campfire or chemistry station to make glue like normal. Glue isn’t going to spurt out of the dew collector. The apocalypse is bad but not THAT bad.

Snow can’t be crafted into murky water I don’t know about Molotov Cocktails and can’t check for a couple more days. Mineral water is a rare find. Most of the time you’ll find murky water. Dew Collectors take quite a bit to build. You won’t be whipping several out in the first couple of weeks.

Glue uses pure water now. So build lots of dew collectors to support your glue production.

I definitely feel it’s an improvement. Before, you would often find enough pure water in cabinets and water tanks to keep your hydration up without consequence. Now, it’s only murk anytime you have a chance to find water. When your hydration slips below 50%, suddenly you start considering slurping on some murk to trade a bit of health to avoid stamina loss. The nice thing is you can find a nearby water source and drink directly from that to save your bottled murk to take back to your base and boil it. I look forward to your chicken coop reimplementation.

Correct that we cannot craft nor collect murky water. Glue now uses pure water in its recipe. For your production needs you would probably want a dew collector farm of at least a dozen collectors. Also, while on the subject, for boiling murky water into pure water on the campfire you must have a pot in A21. No more can you boil murk without a pot. Sometimes we just have to drink murk. Rekt swears by it. He prefers murk to anything else.

It is a passive station. It just does it’s thing once you place it and the interface is only to collect water from it. It isn’t a crafting station and it doesn’t unlock new recipes. But when you have three set up it makes your base look cool and you always feel happy opening it and removing pure water. Nope. You can’t craft empty jars, find empty jars, or wind up with empty jars. Go craft up 1000s while it’s still A20…. 😜 I don’t know. I hope so. I think they should only work outside. Putting the plant property on them to force them to have open sky above them would be a great idea if it isn’t already implemented. I could never bring myself to build one inside and go against the theme. Plus they are humongous. They look awesome on the exterior of your base.

No longer possible. You can drink straight from a river or lake but you won’t be able to fill up a stack of empty bottles. There are no longer any empty bottles in A21. Bottles only exist as long as there is a liquid contained in them. They simply represent one unit of that liquid and not a literal bottle any longer. Murky water is now the standard drink of the apocalypse. You will only ever find murky water when looting containers that have water. You will always have to boil your own pure water. But dew collectors generate pure water so they are very nice. The struggle for water lasts longer than three days now. I’ve actually found myself resorting to drinking murky water at times. Murky water works like the spoiled sandwiches. It recovers your thirst but damages your health slightly just like the sandwiches recover your hunger but damage your health. Makes for some interesting choices.

Whelp…since it’s been outed…The dew collector is the new workstation. It is the lowest tier workstation and so will be the first one unlocked by reading Forge Ahead magazines. It slowly collects three bottles of pure water (irrespective of biome or weather sorry Gup). Drinking water has been completely rebalanced for A21. Setting up multiple dew collectors will definitely become fundamental to survival and for building your base.

It’s not arrogance. You are coming from assumptions speculation and opinion. I’m coming from actual knowledge. I have access to all team meetings, work flow logs, and every build for every alpha. I don’t say this to brag but simply so that people will know that rather than me giving my own speculation that sounds arrogant if you think it’s just my opinion, I’m giving facts. If this is so, why are you so focused on them finishing quickly? If the journey so far has been great why demand an end? What is objectively wrong with working on the game for 10 years especially since there has been no period of abandonment or unresponsiveness. The development has been constant.

Nobody ever opens a container for me no matter their gamestage. Letting some top gamestage perception maxed player open your stuff for you is basically playing with the creative menu enabled. I like to progress through the stages of scavenging rather than have some buddy of mine help me skip it. And if someone berates me for opening a container because I’m not the top level dude then I don’t play with that guy any more. There are some things more important than min/maxing loot containers…

Yeah, I was more talking about people who play actively actually acting out a designated role in the world and always staying in character and behaving in ways that preserve the character rather than ways that are optimal for gameplay. The skills and stats and attributes only contribute somewhat to the role but it is mostly acting and only doing those things the character would do based on their knowledge.

Devious! I love it!!