Roland

Agreed. Most people who post here are fans of the game AND fans of the developers. So most posts are going to be positive and when people disagree with how the development is going they still post in a respectful way because they are cognizant of the feelings of the developers. Some people who post here are angry and don't care about or maybe don't even like the developers or members of this community. Because they are angry they are aggressive and perhaps rude and because they don't have any respect for developers or community members they are very willing to insult right along with their rudeness. Look at @Sal calling everyone on this forum who is happy with the game, "nut huggers". WIth one breath he and @youcantgetridofme claim that people are too afraid to come here and post their negative opinions and yet they post negative things themselves and their posts remain. Even the "nut-hugger" name calling is still there in a couple of Sal's posts and hasn't been moderated out. The truth is we give people a lot of leeway before taking action and the actions are progressive and very rarely an immediate ban regardless of which side they are arguing. If the bias here makes people who plan to post negatively check themselves so they word their feedback without flaming then that is a good thing. If someone doesn't post because they are afraid that their opinion will be challenged, that is weakness of that person and not of the forum. Forums are here so that all opinions can be challenged and discussed.

And I wrote a response to this "trend" that you have not seemed to have observed. I asked some pointed questions asking for evidence of this alleged trend. Can you provide it? The console version was released with Alpha 14 and so when you look back at Alpha 12 and 13 you can definitely see changes that had console in mind. After that, it was pretty quickly clear to everyone that console would never be the same as PC. Console got many of the A15 features but not all and only a small number of A16 features. If the claim that the game was being dumbed down to work on console was true then why were the two versions so completely different within two Alphas? Then, from A18 development until now TFP knew the console version was never going to change since Telltale went bankrupt so why would they be dumbing things down in those alphas for a console game that was not going to get those dumbed down updates? Now, for A20 and A21 the framework for cross-platform networking is being worked on which obviously has consoles in mind but what other gameplay examples can you give that are dumbing down for the benefit of consoles? Please, share.

I know you were just using cooking as an example and I get your point. But I will say also that in the case of cooking as well as several other non-combat perks, the crafting recipe portions of those are gone now and separated to magazines. So a big portion of absolutely needing to max those out is gone in A21. Secondly, I understand the costs. It's expensive. The difference between us is you see the benefits of the second attribute wasted because I guess you won't use a suboptimal weapon even if it does the job. So if you are fully perked in Machine Guns you won't touch a shotgun even though you are fully maxed in Strength in order to max cooking. In my case I'll have machine guns and shotguns on my belt and use both even if I haven't spent a single point in shotguns. Just the full Strength bonus alone makes shotguns pretty amazing as a secondary weapon. The fact that the 16 points is of no benefit to you is your choice by you ignoring those benefits. But they are still there. Finally, the way the perks are separated makes it so that in some games you are a master cook but in other games you are not and you have to adapt and play differently. If cooking was separated into a generic category and its cost was set then every time you played, it would be the same. What determines which type of skill points you get when you level up? Do you get one of each type? That just sounds like eliminating tough choices. You no longer have to choose between purchasing a combat perk or a non-combat perk. Now you can do both. Maybe I'm not understanding what you are proposing with two separate skill points but I see that as a loss of hard choices. I like your ideas. If they were in a mod I think I would have a lot of fun playing that mod. I think all of these ideas about how to organize the perks are interesting but I think TFP's version is also interesting and has pros and cons but...doesn't need to be fixed. It isn't broken--just different. If your ideas were the game's default version and TFP's was the mod I would enjoy playing the mod with their version as well.

You aren't wasting points. You are paying a higher cost for some of the non-combat perks that you want. Again, I'm not understanding where the actual difference lies in what we have and your proposed system other than those non-combat perks being in a generic category. You stated that you are okay with some non-combat perks costing more. If you can forget for the moment that the extra points you are paying to cross over are giving you abilities that you don't necessarily care about and simply see those extra points as the more expensive cost then you'll understand that you've already got what you want. When I cross over to get perks in a different attribute than I've been spending in, I see those perks as being more expensive with some added benefits for a few other weapons. When you cross over to get perks in a different attribute than you've been spending in, you see those perks as being more expensive with additional benefits that are totally wasted because you don't care about them. If we change it to your method the higher expense will be there for some perks but none of the extra benefits which I guess will make you happy since you don't want them but I like them since I often use a variety of weapons besides what I am most fully perked into. We agree that at least some of the non-combat perks should be more expensive. I'm happy with the way they are more expensive now and like it better than the way you propose. The way you propose whichever non-combat perks are chosen to be the more expensive ones will always be the more expensive ones. The way it is now it depends on what your primary attribute is. Those non-combat perks will be cheap and the rest expensive. It makes it different when you choose different paths. I do agree that more perks would be fun though.

If you are willing to have some skills cost more points to level up then the current organization handles that exactly. The non-combat perks that are in your chosen attribute cost less and the ones that are in other attributes cost more. Under your system, the same non-combat perks would always be the same every time you played. If Living off the Land was chosen to be an expensive perk to level up it would always be so every single game. In the current system, Living off the Land is cheap whenever you decide to do Fortitude but expensive whenever you choose to follow one of the other attributes so there is some variance in play. I don't understand why you are willing to allow some skills to be more expensive and some to be cheaper but currently hate paying more for skills that outside of your chosen tree. It is the same thing but with the added bonus that you also gain some ability in other weapons. Your Way I choose Strength for my main attribute. I want to farm so I pay the more expensive upgrade costs of Living off the Land All I get for those extra costs are the perks and skills granted by living off the land. Current Way I choose Strength for my main attribute. I want to farm so I pay the more expensive upgrade costs of Living off the Land I get the LotL perks plus my headshot chances and damage increases whenever I use machine guns and knuckles. Extra cost is extra cost. You already admitted that you would be fine paying extra cost for some non-combat perks if they were moved out of the attribute trees into a general category. So if you are fine with that added cost why are you not okay with the current added costs? I like how you organized and showed the relative strengths and weaknesses of each tree where it concerns combat. I think that what your organization doesn't show is the advantages some attributes have in noncombat skills being cheaper if you pick that attribute (because you removed them). This is important because it makes the attributes asymmetrical in nature granting different challenges and higher difficulties depending on what is chosen.

I use it by default now as well. It does double service as a kind of gear degradation. Once all your best is deleted, you have to make do with inferior stuff until you can regain the best again. It makes the game feel a bit more rogue-like since you lose all your gear but retain your skills. It definitely shouldn't be vanilla but it is the best death penalty that exists at the moment. Well, I said it was part of the reason. The biggest reason: They don't want wellness. And, hey, that gives DF another way to differentiate itself from vanilla.

They didn't simply remove it without going through some iterative changes. In fact, I can't think of any feature removed from the game that they didn't explore first and experiment with balancing and making changes to it first. Rewriting history to suit your narrative is pretty typical of you, though.... I like this idea-- though not instead of on hit debuffs. They really just need to have the debuffs remain after respawn so they aren't solved by death. But I would also be for some unique maladies that hit a player upon respawn that need special medicine to fix in addition to those things. Also a proper death option in the top menu so people can choose ironman, debuffs persist, etc. Dang! Maybe in 20 minutes we can download your full game...

Then there's @SnowDog1942 who is always 69% serious.

Lies. You can only deactivate landmines with a wrench. I've been teaching this for years. Edit: haha caught up with the thread... Mega, Mega... smh

Use a stopwatch and time how fast it takes a gyro to fly to a point 1km away and then how long it takes to drive a motorcycle the same distance. You don't have to drive the gyro on the ground to compare the speeds unless you always drive the gyro on the ground.

I used to rage quit if I died far from my base and so I'd have to run forever to get my backpack and all my stuff. Then I switched to "Delete all" on death and I never rage quit anymore. My stuff is just gone so no need to go get it-- just start crafting new.

I have tried Undead Legacy, Ravenhearst, Darkness Falls, True Survival, and War of the Walkers in the past as well as several mod packs and individual modlets that struck my fancy. Sphereii's mod launcher is a great tool to have a few different versions on your computer all at once. I've had a lot of fun trying out the complexities and changes that each author brings to the game. I'm also glad that basic vanilla 7 Days to Die isn't exactly like any one of them.

This is exactly why the developers have made their game so mod friendly— so that users can extend and expand and take the base game into directions that go beyond their scope. It’s fantastic that you were able to find an overhaul mod that really gels with your preferences and how you like to have fun. Subquake has different goals and a different vision than the developers. The developers are spending a lot of their time on underlying code and creating systems to make the basic vanilla version as polished and stable as it can be. A lot of this work will result in hooks and interfaces that modders like Subquake will be able to make use of to do even more. The devs already have their own roadmap to finish up. They have created a framework that makes what Subquake has done possible. They don’t need to make the base game just like Undead Legacy. The base vanilla version makes for a better starting platform for various different authors to take things in other directions.

or the right one...

There will probably be an Alpha 22. We are getting close to the end though on adding new features to the game.

I agree that Alphas 12 and 13 saw some simplification changes for the benefit of consoles which were mostly in the form of control schemes (everything got a radial menu) and the interface changes (List style crafting) But you are going to have to give examples of changes in A17-A20 of your claim. In A17 - A19 TFP thought console would be no more other than the currently existing game which woulld never again get an update and wasn’t the same as PC anyway so they wouldn’t have made any such changes. In A20 they started realizing they could do a console version for the new consoles which are not exactly underpowered. So, maybe there could have been some dumbing down as you claim. The server issues are definitely an example of console affecting PC play, but cross play isn’t exactly a “dumbing down” type of change So what are these recent dumbing down changes that have been made specifically to somehow cram this game into the underpowered PS5 or XBox Series? Typically, when they have to make concessions in the game it is so that it works with Unity….

gas cans, stew bowls, acid containers, food cans, meal plates, drug syringes, candy wrappers, repair kit cases and med kit boxes.

Closing this thread now. If you still have questions, I suggest PMing a member of the CompoPack team and asking directly.

So you admit you missed me. Better aim next time. 😀

Exactly. At the time we implemented our rules for the modding forum we stressed that they are guidelines for remaining in good standing in OUR forum alone. If someone violates the rules and refuses to comply then we ban them and hide all their content on our site and they no longer have a presence here. That doesn’t stop them from continuing to do what they want to do using a discord channel or Nexus or a FaceBook page. A couple years ago a modder blatantly ripped off 90% of the assets and code of another author and wouldn’t reply civilly to the guy much less agree to stop stealing his work. We sent messages and finally banned him and hid his content. He went to Nexus who also banned him (since our community is prolific enough to get around to other sites). I’m not sure what happened to the guy or his mod but chasing him away from our community here was the extent of what we could do. For most modders who are fans of the game, that threat is bad enough. They don’t want to be removed from this community. Plus most of our modders are good people who want their work to be appreciated and out there. So, really, it does end up all being self regulated within the community without us having to get involved at all. Only if a party is hellbent on violating a rule do we get involved and that certainly isn’t the case. We aren’t involved yet other than making sure the CP thread is uncluttered by angry rants and that this thread stays civil. And I keep hearing from key people to just stay the hell away which I’m more than happy to do. 😂

There is no problem and we allow that starting from the date that those terms were posted and not retroactively applied. Honestly, the thing that made this muddy was doing it in the middle of A20. The best time to have done this was when he updated the pack to A20 compatibility the first time. Then he could state that A19 Compopack is the vanilla open source compilation that everyone is free to download and use. He could have released his overhaul mod that updates the POIs to alpha 20 and rebalances them- not as the new version of Compopack- but as a separate Stallions overhaul mod featuring Margoli’s Compopack and state his terms from the get go. If others ripped out his updated POIs to use in their own overhaul mods without his permission then the outcome would be clear. Now, people have already had permission granted to use them before suddenly these versions are no longer permitted to be used. If disputes arise it is too muddy to definitively say that the POIs were taken after permission was revoked since they are the same version as the POIs that existed while permission was still granted. Muddy, and all I care about is having a nice happy modding community and not who legally gets to do what. (TFP gets to legally do everything if they want)

There’s nothing stopping people from searching the forum and downloading individual POIs that people have created and posted. You could create your own “playlist”. Some of those may need to be updated to work in A20 if their authors haven’t done that themselves. You could do that work and have those prefabs in your world. Sounds to me like resolution of some kind is coming. Stallionsden has messaged me that he admittedly didn’t communicate himself well and things have blown out of proportion. Let’s give him time to communicate his intentions better and see what comes of this. Remember that the Compopack you are playing today is not the same Compopack Margoli left us. That Compopack would not be compatible with A20 and many of the people being outraged put zero effort into updating all the POIs to work with A20 other than to expect it be there for them to use. Stallionsden deserves some latitude here to clarify things if you’ve been enjoying A20 Compopack. You’re mixing up laws and forum guidelines. Legally, all derivative work belongs to TFP. Period. on this forum the rule you quoted stands because it results in the least number of disputes that rise to the level of moderation. We have had less than a handful of large scale disputes since our forum rules were posted and all were able to be resolved quickly and none of it had to do with the law because— as you pointed out— if we are going to involve the law then it is TFP enforcing their ownership and either enforcing free distribution or locking behind their own download guidelines. So, legally, terms may be able to be renegotiated and permission revoked for failure to comply with the new terms, but if you want to be a member of this forum and be involved in our modding community then you can’t revoke permission once granted because that used to lead to sooooooo much drama and ever since everyone accepted that forum rule it has greased the wheels of better community collaboration.

Hey Guys! Just a reminder to keep things civil regardless of any anger or outrage you might feel. We would like to keep this thread open so that the official CompoPack thread doesn't become the place where people go to discuss and vent. I want to take a few moments to clarify the guidelines we all agree to abide by in the modding forum for the good of the community as it applies to this particular scenario. 1) Terms of use are only effective from the date they are posted and when a dispute occurs we go by the "last edited" date wherever it is posted. If terms of use are not posted, then permission to use as open source content is assumed. 2) Permission to use, once granted, cannot be revoked. Traditionally going back almost a decade, prefabs have always been uploaded with the intent to share them freely with the community. I don't think it ever occurred to anyone to add terms of use to a prefab that was shared because of the intent of sharing it. Prefab authors predominately want to know that their creations are popular and highly regarded by the community. That isn't to say that someone cannot attempt to protect the asset they are sharing and adding a terms of use to their asset. In that case, the same rules stated above would apply. If a dispute arose between content authors over the use of CP we would go by those rules. @Guppycur is concerned that we will have to add new rules regarding prefab collections that would make things more restrictive. I think as moderators (some of us modders as well) we are pretty united in wanting to keep the traditional convention of sharing prefabs without demanding express permission-- intact. Its kind of our culture. I wouldn't mind hearing from the community what you all think would be the best way to word things in order to help people resolve disputes but also to keep the sharing and building of collections of POIs open and non-restrictive. On the one hand, Stallionsden's choice is a driving force to encourage people to make new compilation packs. But on the other hand, as a community we shouldn't expect Stallionsden to do all the work of maintaining and updating hundreds of POIs for new Alpha releases and just benefit freely from his work. There has to be a balance. Lastly, keep in mind that we are getting closer to the day when TFP will flip the switch for Steam Workshop integration at which point the method by which people share and add community content into their games is going to change radically from what we are currently doing. "Compopack" will likely be a legend that old-timers make references to chats and forums but simply a myth for all the newbs who will be browsing and pointing and clicking whatever mix of POIs they want sorted by "most popular"....

ummmm....that screenshot you shared IS first person...lmao