Roland

The game being in development.

I don't know about that. There have been some changes to traders that I can't share. Some of it factors into other things we've already discussed. But I can't promise that there are no clone traders in A21 guaranteed because I don't know. Sorry. @schwanz9000 Is there anything you can say about this?

He thought you were the first of nearly everyone showing up. I'll answer simply by backing up @meganoth. The devs have never billed their Early Access as a way for investors to help steer the ship. They appreciate feedback and bug reports and they use that feedback to make some decisions but they've never asked community permission before adding something or removing something. It is always hilarious to read someone who is shocked that TFP added something that nobody ever asked for. TFP has been in complete control of development and never once tried to dupe anyone into spending their $8 by promising them a seat at the developer's table. Early Access for this game has been an early chance to play the game while it is still being developed to witness the changes that happen and see how the game evolves. Community feedback may cause some balancing changes and may even result in actual additions (or edits) to the game down the line. They gather that feedack from many sources as well as stuff they can track as players play which gives them the real truth about how nearly everyone is playing. Feedback isn't going to effect things much these days since the game is almost finished. Now most player dreams for what isn't included in the vanilla experience is going to have to be a mod. Now if your attitude is that you don't want to give feedback if they aren't going to implement what you say and they shouldn't ask for it if they aren't going to bind themselves to do whatever is suggested, then I have to echo the sentiment that your expectations were set way too high about what your early access was going to grant you. Everyone? or nearly everyone? Exactly how many cookies can I expect Jost to receive just as soon as one of these two groups finally arrives?

It was mostly regarding youcantgetridofme needing vent about the Steam forum. Haha...so translation: "I have nothing to refute the specific counterpoints you made so here's some random nonsense" Gotcha. Thanks for conceding the point. No, you can't listen to me because I am an actual member of the staff and can bring facts and inside knowledge that destroys the narrative you're trying to spin using speculation and worst case scenario babbling. What you want is to engage with other members of the community who support TFP but who don't have any more facts than you do. That way you can say inane things like "TFP obviously has no roadmap and they are floundering along without any purpose or goal" and that's your opinion and then someone will answer and say "I think you wrong and they are doing a great job steering the ship" and then you call them a fanboi and insult them a bit maybe acting like they are a young child because it is just their opinion vs your opinion and there are no real facts. Since I have facts and am an eye-witness and have actual knowledge of behind the scenes workings, your idle speculations can't stand up to that and your attempt to troll fails. Look at what just happened between us. 1) You speculated that the devs don't play the game any longer and ignore all critical and important fan feedback 2) I shared actual facts that I witnessed that showed your assumptions to be untrue. 3) You responded with a literary lesson that refuted nothing because you knew that you had nothing because you came to the conversation with guesses and I came as an eye-witness I don't blame you for not wanting to engage with me since your purpose here is to troll and push your doom and gloom narrative. Mouse over my name and press ignore, amigo, if listening to me is too upsetting. Where is nearly everyone? Oh right, they're too afraid to come here and voice their opinion because "they'll get banned". But...wait...they're NEARLY EVERYONE right? If nearly everyone came here and said in various levels of colorful language to tell the devs to shove it where the sun don't shine, how could we few moderators ban nearly everyone? We'd be overwhelmed and the whole culture of these forums would flip and become predominantly antagonistic and derogatory towards the devs instead of respectful and hopeful. If only nearly everyone would just show up. Maybe start a petition to, you know, make nearly everyone aware and coordinate the big day. That's just something trolls, who want the forums to be predominantly antagonistic, say. You want to be able to spout doom and gloom nonsense about the devs and get 20 likes for your comment and when someone disagrees they get jumped on and told to stop being "inappropriately familiar" with the devs. You want every other post calling anyone who likes the game a fanboi. Despite the fact that there are plenty of places you can go on the internet where you can get exactly that culture where those who hope the devs succeed are always on the defensive and every worst case scenario that is spewed in a post gets repeated over and over and over and hailed as the obviously correct analysis of what is going on. You hate that this forum exists where members of TFP respond and give actual explanations and shatter the doom and gloom you're trying to propose. Well, the good news is there is plenty of places you can go for that. Here, you can criticize features of the game you don't like all you want but if you insult the members of this forum or the developers you will not be welcome. You're obviously pushing the limit of what you can get away with and I'll just say that if you have any criticism of the game go ahead and voice that but you need to back away from calling people names. Mega isn't going to be bated by being called a child and I'm not going to be bated by being likened to manic WOW MVP player supporters (whatever that might be...lol). The more you post the more it is evident you have an agenda to try and get a flame war going. If you keep at it I'll ban you myself so you can tell nearly everyone how unfairly you were treated for doing nothing.

You did say it and I did quote you directly. If what you said is not what you meant then fine. I'm willing to accept what you saying you mean and agree that people can be alienated by a change and become unhappy. What advertising? Why do you have to phrase it that 5% leave because the gameplay is not what they like but the 50% who come in are somehow duped by advertising. We don't do any advertising other than showing gameplay footage and 99% of that is by independent streamers who may or may not be saying good things about us while they play. If 50% more people come in, it is more likely that they like what they are seeing and want to play. No, you like niche games that conform to your own desires and if they don't you accuse the developers of either failing to listen or going casual. I've heard you many times accuse them of failing to listen and now you are accusing them of going casual. Not liking a game because it doesn't match your preferences is normal and there's nothing wrong with that. I can respect the idea that you don't like the game as much as you used to. But failing to recognize that that is all that it is and then accusing the devs of selling out or being uncaring is missing the mark. Okay. Thanks for sharing your own feedback. Hopefully when you get a chance to play it you'll be pleasantly surprised. Well if you are going to equate bugs to design changes then we can't even form a common basis for discussion. In my opinion, the changes to the game design are not bugs. They are intentional design changes and as I mentioned elsewhere I think they are just as valid and work just as well as other design choice. That we may or may not like them as much will vary from person to person but it doesn't make them bugs that modding must fix. It simply makes them gameplay designs that modders will change.

I don't believe you are being fair. You are glamorizing the system you like and intentionally putting the one you don't into absurd terms. You have asked for an honest analysis a number of times and so I shall give you one. Both systems can be rushed and both systems can be played organically. Players would speed run the progression just as much under LBD as they do now with central pool xp and skill points. People could play LBD naturally and organically if they so chose and people can do so with central pool xp if they so choose. LBD emphasized doing a single action type in order to increase the skill for that action type. Skillpoints emphasizes the growth of the character through various and all actions. Both are valid and amazing systems that work well. I enjoyed both and I recognize the strengths and weaknesses of both. In all cases, you get out of a game what you put into it and abusing any given system will make it appear absurd while using it to organically progress gives a feeling of reward and accomplishment. I have found both systems can deliver this result. I know that many people have cast an unfair light upon LBD making it appear absurd over the last few years which may cause a desire to respond in kind about the current system but since you have asked for an honest discussion, let's leave behind the rhetoric and be honest. Both designs work and are good designs and multiple games have used both with success and regardless of whether a person likes or dislikes one or the other, that doesn't mean one design is actually trash and the other is treasure. Thanks for your feedback. Speaking as an official representative of TFP, I can tell you unequivocably that no amount of serious discussion is going to reverse this game back to the direction of LBD. That isn't to say that the devs did not take the counter arguments seriously and did not weigh their choices carefully before changing the method of progression. In fact, it was a process that spanned from A11-A17 in which we saw the game start from a purely LBD model and slowly change towards a skillpoint model. LBD disappeared bit by bit until it was finally gone in A17. That was a period of about 3 years in which the team discussed, developed, and ultimately came to their final decision. Now we have seen their final system get refined and modified since A17 and now the game is almost a wrap. Please know that regardless of the snarky back and forth over LBD by community members, TFP has always taken their game seriously and been very careful in their decisions. I say this plainly and simply and with no intention of sneering about it. I'm simply being honest that there is 0 chance of getting LBD for player progression outside of modding. As a general statement of what could occur in this industry I agree. I personally don't think your description fits TFP. They have always cared about this game being the best that it can be according to their goals and just because the game has been financially successful and they can't lose that money to refunds doesn't mean they don't care. They absolutely care about how people react to what they have done. All of us are excited for experimental so that you all can try the new features and we hope that you will like them and it is hugely disappointing when people don't like them. Some people feel like the money they paid gives them the right to be part of the directing team and that the player base that supported the game by paying for it should be able to override what the devs want to do and that the devs shouldn't change anything without first asking the player base who paid for the game if they want those changes. Others feel like the money they paid gives them the right to play the game and witness the changes that occur during development and it's nice to be able to give feedback but ultimately the final decision rests with the developers and the final product will be whatever they create. Still others just buy the game and play it for what it is at that moment in time until they get bored and then move on without ever following a single bit of it's development. They may come back to it and play again later but probably didn't pay attention enough to really register the changes. They know something is different but are not sure what it is. I am in that second group and disagree with the assertions of the first group and have been in the third group for other early access games in my library.

ugh...who still does that? Nirvana is landing on the roof and then descending....

Okay, fine. I change "the entire" to "an entire". Still doesn't scan with historical evidence. A17's spike was not as high as A16's spike, true, but the player base of A17's lifecycle was on average very comparable to A16. I admit A17 didn't gain us much popularity because LBD had just been removed and the enemy AI was still a WIP and very different than it had been before which rendered most classic base defense metas obsolete. Also POIs were completely PACKED with sleepers (which interestingly hampered the looting game). But if LBD removal was truly the largest complaint about A17, then A18 should not have been such the large increase that it was because by then people knew that TFP had decided to not go with the feedback to bring LBD back. Instead A18 was mainly a more polished A17 with the AI further along and the progression system of central pool xp and skillpoints firmly established. One would think that the loss of LBD would be the event to lose us an entire playerbase. But things have just grown hugely since we've refined and polished and doubled down on the A17 version in A19 and A20. Besides LBD, the importance of looting over crafting has grown since A17. Each alpha the dominance of looting as a means to progress has increased more and more. This is the whole reason we are discussing this now because A21 looks to emphasize looting even more-- and yet, despite your prediction that this trend will turn people away, we can clearly see that the game has only become more popular. It is my opinion that the devs have actually recognized in the playerbase that most people who play this game actually like looting and exploring POIs. And what have they been focusing on over the last three alphas? Emphasizing and enhancing looting as a major part of the game and providing hundreds of new POIs to explore-- and the result is that people are flocking to play this game. Here we are 8 months after the update in the doldrums of A20 and the numbers are still higher than A16's best day spike. Does that disenfranchise those who never really cared for looting but were able to play their mole game while the game was still underdeveloped for them to do so? I agree that it probably will. But TFP is actually doing what most of the fans want. Of course, those whose playstyle isn't the popular way would call that "selling out". Game studios can't win. Either they are prigs who don't listen to their player base or they are greedy @%$#s who McDonalds-ize themselves to the majority to just make money and forget their original dream. I thought you said you didn't have a problem with exploring or are you again channeling the desires of that other group whose torch you're carrying and you want different approaches for them? The truth, is that you can ignore exploring and you can survive. You will be stuck with your primitive gear but you'll be able to become very very very good at using it as effectively as it can possibly be used. If you want more than the basics you are going to have to go and find some of it and leave your molehole. I don't think that is an unreasonable expectation in a game where exploration and looting are major parts of the game and for which TFP has spent lots of time and money tripling and quadrupling the explorable content that we've had before and with no signs of slowing down for A21. There are even more POIs already added to A21 plus more coming and the purpose of those POIs is to explore them and loot them. I think it is also reasonable to expect people to mod the game to de-emphasize exploration and looting if they wish. This isn't "fixing" the broken game but simply shifting the design to something they like better and it is great that it can be done. It's easy to believe that the way you want the game to play is the 5-star restaurant of design while the way you don't like automatically means that it is the McDonalds of design. I think it is just a different 5-star restaurant those other people don't care for but calling it McDonalds makes them feel better. No, but it is more likely to make listeners roll their eyes rather than take you seriously. I think it is always best for people to just voice their own opinions and not to try to champion the cause of some other group they aren't a part of. It is definitely more compelling. I've always been interested in your opinion on what you don't like. I don't necessarily agree with your portrayal of some things you don't like as being poor game design. But I generally like those ideas you whip up in 20 minutes.

I think the biggest complaint we will see is the loss of control over being able to quickly level up in the ladder we want to quickly level up in. People are used to being able to farm points quickly and race to the top the perks and be able to craft the best they can within days of starting. @KhaineGB said he faced this and the solution he had was to allow people to spend points in lieu of books in order to return that control to the player. It will be interesting to see if TFP follows in this same design path eventually. Khaine was warning TFP to just do it now and save themselves the headache later. We'll see.

Every alpha you warn that we are about to lose the entire playerbase and every alpha our playerbase increases. Just speak for yourself, man. As for realism vs gameplay, I was not defending the learning by reading by realism. I was simply showing that it has a basis in reality the same as learn by doing. Exploring and scavenging IS fun gameplay for many people. I think that you are correct that playing as a mole is becoming one of the more challenging gameplay options. Will that turn off all mole people or only those that wanted to be moles and have it easy? Perhaps they will be able to develop a Casual Mole Mod within their community to make the game more enjoyable for them. Who can say since we can't really speak for them. Will they all quit the game because being a mole is tougher now? Maybe. But I doubt it. And based on history, I doubt the prediction that entire playerbases will be lost as well. Would you even want something like this? If so, then this is the point where you just enable the creative menu and take those books you want and not worry about it so much. I agree that gameplay trumps realism. But what can I say? Looting and exploring is fun for me. I'm not speaking for some hypothetical swath of people who may or may not like looting or exploring and yet bought this game. Some people have listened to the description and already decided it is more or less fun. When they actually play it that will confirm it for them or change their mind. I think the game continues to be fun which is why I still play it. The changes for A21 introduce new situations and choices and I like it.

Ummm.... I rewrote/summarized my response in the same post that you quoted me. You didn't need to go digging back in the thread or miss anything. You claimed that the trend was to dumb down the game for console and I refuted that point and asked questions of you to hear your thoughts. It had nothing to do with your experience on Steam or past run-ins with forum moderators. I don't need to go to steam and browse anything. You posted here that in your opinion the developers are trending towards dumbing down the game for consoles and I challenged that idea and would like you to provide the evidence that drives your opinion. Lets drop the stories of what happened on another forum and stick to the topic.

Thanks for this feedback. You are describing the difference between a sandbox and a game. Sandboxes are completely do as you please with no limits. Games introduce rules, limits, and challenges. This game started out much more like a sandbox because a lot of the rules and limits were not yet introduced. But you should understand that it was always planned to be a game first and foremost. You can still make it a sandbox by enabling the creative menu and godmode. These two settings will allow you to do whatever you want to do without limit or constraint. For example, with the creative menu enabled you never would have to loot at all or use a trader and still be able to advance. Good question. I've been playing A21 completely solo and I read every book I find. I am progressing along all the different ladders at a different rate without much control over what I can progress in other than perking into those skills that will give a slight boost to the types of magazines and parts I'll be able to find. It has significantly increased the "make do with what you have" aspect of the game. I've completely maxed out my skills at times--say for example machine guns-- and I still can only craft a green pipe machine gun and there is nothing I can do to break into AK-47s except wait until I've read enough magazines. That doesn't bother me overly as being a very very skilled machine gunner using a pipe machine gun is still pretty effective. So the answer to your question is that as a single player you are going to have to find or buy or earn all the magazines yourself and whether or not that ends up being tedious or not will probably vary by individual. My own opinion is that looting is more fun in A21 than ever before because there are now so many more containers that are worth looting and feel rewarding for you having taken the time to open them.

How about we all just post about our own feelings and experiences and not on behalf of others. They can post on their own behalf. I think just speaking for yourself is always the best policy. What I'm hearing from you is that you personally see that scavenging and exploring is a big part of a zombie survival genre game. I agree with you. It still is a 100% sandbox if you enable the creative menu and optionally godmode. Do that and all of the complaints of people who don't want the constraints of rules and game limits will go away.

Technically you get better at mining by spending points on your mining perks which you can earn by mining plus doing other stuff. You get better at crafting mining tools by reading magazines and trade journals so that your knowledge of how to put together things increases. You don't have to do a single bit of looting in order to actually mine. In order to learn how to craft better and better tools you have to either have a craftsman teach you (sorry they are all zombified now) or you can read up and learn. Now you can trivialize that by saying its all by looting but I'm not sure how you imagine obtaining magazines with the knowledge you need to learn if you don't go looking for them or have someone bring them to you. Okay, I see you realized how it works. But you are missing the point of what the learning is. You are not learning by looting. You are learning by reading. You like LBD because you learn (thematically) by trial and error. You start out doing a shoddy job but as you keep doing that somehow bit by bit you get better and better. The funny thing is that nobody learns like that for specialized work. You go and search for a video or you find an instructional manual and you read up on it to learn the specialized skills you might never stumble upon if you just kept bumbling along doing amateurish work over and over and over again. So when I want to fix something on my car and I search for a video on YouTube and watch that and then replicated it myself having learned what to do. Is that "Learn by Searching" No. I did have to search to find the video but watching and listening and internalizing the instructional information of the video is how I learned. You can do the same by reading manuals, trade journals, etc. So people who want to be dismissive of this change can just call it "learn by looting" but what it actually is, is learning by reading the instructional information of experts in the various fields to gain their knowledge for yourself. The problem is that the apocalypse happened and they are all dead and there is no YouTube to watch. All you can do is gather what you can find from magazines and teach yourself how to become more and more a master craftsman. So then, given that we are going to learn by reading and not by doing, where would you like those magazines with all the knowledge in them to be placed? Scattered all over the world to be scavenged or all just sitting in front of you when you spawn? What seems to make the most sense in a post apocalyptic world?

One issue with save sync is the nature of this game in that it saves itself every few seconds. If save sync was a thing, when would it capture a particular save for the cloud? On log off? That would bring new problems like someone's save get's corrupted but they are still able to log into the game. They see they've started over at Day 1 with no skills and all their gear gone and so they log out and now the cloud has been overwritten with the corrupted data. Some might be aware enough to just hard close the game without logging off but most users wouldn't consider it and just log out. So then why not have a manual button that the user can press to capture a save to the cloud or make a backup on their own hard drive? Because then that defeats the gameplay purpose of having the game save every few seconds so that survival decisions are final and can't be redone. People can't hedge their bets and make a backup save before trying something tough. Sure, people could go into the files and make a backup and still save state cheat a quest or erase a death but it is too cumbersome to do veru often for the average player. Making it a convenient button press, though, would result in all sorts of abuse. Its not that I care what others do to cheat in their own game so much as it is a flaw in the design that makes it so that our decisions matter and can't be undone. Its not a simple problem with a simple answer.

I won't demand a game from him within a few months but how about a mod? If he has all these better ideas for how the game should be and knows unity, then building off the 7 Days to Die platform to create a mod should be a piece of cake. I'd be happy to play his mod. Maybe he's working on his own road map before he starts....

If you are exploring a lot of POI's then as Dr Pepper Smurf said 20 - 30 easily. In my current world there is a city with two Crack-a-books right across the street from each other. That day was epic. But then if you are mixing in mining, and building in with scavenging and then prep day for blood moon and repair day after blood moon and then you will be finding and reading fewer.

Hey man, switch out your mean translator for a kind translator. Nobody ever said your comment was stupid and useless.

I can tell you that the developers haven't stopped playing 7 Days to Die. They play it regularly. One of them even plays on Twitch regularly. TFP has never ignored any community and tester feedback let alone all the super critical important stuff that pours in. They don't always end up agreeing with the conclusions that some voices in the community suggest as needed changes but they don't ignore. They also leave the possibility for community desired changes to be modded into the game so that their vanilla version stands next to the modded versions as choices for people to play. Well by your own criteria, TFP is in a good place and steadily making progress to deliver their finished game. Woah...how'd you get five?

Murky water is an uncommon find compared to A20 but I wouldn't call it rare. Early game you will be drinking everything you find but once you get dew collectors going your supply of murky water will start stacking up and you'll be able to use it for paint. I would say it delays painting out of the early game rather than taking it out of the whole game.

It's imperceptible to me. In my last run by day 13 I had found and read more spear magazines than I had archery magazines even though I was perked into bows. Was it annoying that I could craft a better spear than bow? A bit but the key is that I was still progressing in bows and never could point to a period of time where I just could not find ANY archery magazines. I definitely didn't feel like I was getting less of everything else.

These sorts of details are best left to discovering when it is released to experimental as it is still in a state of flux. The weighting feels different now than it did when I first described it and it will probably change again before you get it. The general idea is that you won't be stuck unable to find what you've perked into and thus feeling like it was a waste of points to perk into what you did. It also means you don't have to wait to spend points until you've amassed a bunch of magazines to see which you have the most of and then do that. But as for the exact formula, you will have to wait until you taste the secret sauce before you get its recipe.

You ain't kidding and I largely ignored those from A6-A20. Now, when I see a house I run to it intending to hit the mailbox first thing with a smile of anticipation on my face. That smile changes to a scowl if it turns out to be one of those sucky houses without a mailbox... Oh, A21 mailboxes! How beautiful your profiles are as I look down a yet to be explored street and see you there in a line, your little red flags bidding me to come and read your contents!

Not exactly. It will be used for transporting water voxels in order to do landscaping effects for your base.

1/2.3k the dream is real.