You cant balance Sp and Mp in the same game

[Maynard69]

Didnt read all the posts here, but as a mainly solo player on MP PVP servers for the majority of my playtime (6000+ hours) I have a creeping feeling that my favorite playstyle is forever lost lol. I would have to be a serious masochist to attempt such feats ever again, going solo against teams used to be my favorite vice in this game. Enjoying messing around with SP games for experimental this time but I think my glory days on 7d's are fading to black now.

 

Seems that PVP is basically screwed now anyway. Not that I am complaining. I know its not their focus at all and that I am not the majority by far.

 

I do feel that SP alone is fine tho. You still arent forced to specialize. There is no need for alot of the perks, some are fluff and/or just not needed and can be supplemented through playstyle.

[LuckyStar]

I'm sorry my friend. I didn't mean to offend.

 

Hehehe...

 

 

[Aldranon]

I hope you know the backstory of that picture?

If you don't: Romeo, the wolf who loved too much

 

Yes. yes I do. I keep that picture on my computer. I thought of putting it as my screen saver. Just too sad...

 

The left side of the picture is accurate for a SP: Smart, fun, but has to get serious when in the wild.

 

The right side, MP: Friendly, easy-going, fights well if pushed in a corner.

[Sisyphus]

I wouldn't mind specialization in combat style. I'd love to pick between several comparable playstyles to boost my preferred one with benefits.

 

melee builds getting faster swings and damage resistance, further specialization into a type of melee weapon

ranged builds getting more accuracy and reload, further specialization into types of ranged weapon

 

just like the current perception and strength tree now...at least the combat portions.

 

Heck you could even make an explosives expert, with bigger blast radius and reduced crafting materials for explosives, and eventually explosion resistance (hitting yourself is inevitable).

 

The problem is that everyone runs, everyone carries stuff, everyone loots, everyone buys from the trader, everyone (HAS TO) craft (certain) stuff. And those are tied into the specializations.

 

Having to deal with the encumbrance penalties because i chose to play a ranged character is incredibly frustrating. I don't mind spending the points to reduce encumbrance, but now I have to invest a LOT of points to do it. Oh, to add to the ranged conundrum, I also end up with sub-par resource harvesting, so gunpowder will be super tight.

 

If i go melee, I miss out on the ranged benefits...thats fine with me, thats the choice i made, but my looting also suffers. Additionally, assuming SP playthroughs are likely to be melee (strength, endurance, intelligence) or ranged (perception, agility, intelligence), the melee build will suffer from reduced stamina, and if they do put points into agility, the combat benefits of it are significantly worse for melee than ranged (sneak bonuses).

 

picking a combat style for SP is fine, locking players out of core gameplay elements is much much less fine. It's looking like MP players will get to specialize, but SP will be...not FORCED, but strongly strongly encouraged to avoid the top levels of most attributes, which means those nifty top level perks will be locked to those players until absolute extreme levels.

 

I'm a big fan of level 100+ characters not being godlike at everything anymore, but not being godlike at the core gameplay elements (looting, crafting, carrying, running & jumping, self-heal-over-time, resource gathering) just feels frustrating. I'm hoping the attribute system gets refined later to perhaps disassociate THAT kind of perk from the attribute and be able to be boosted independently.

 

I agree wholeheartedly with the points being brought up here - however, for me, it's more an issue that the gating is occuring too early in the core gameplay elements rather than it occuring at all. I don't need to be godlike in all core elements - however, I expect to be able to achieve reasonable competence in the core elements of looting, crafting, carrying, fighting, trading, running, and harvesting by the early 20's. If *after* that point, significant gating kicks in to where I have to pick and choose a subset of which of those activities I become godlike in, I wouldn't particularly mind. At present, it looks like I wouldn't achieve that reasonable well-rounded core competence until the late 30's, at which point I'd be quite behind the curve in any sort of specialization. I'm finding that very frustrating in this build, and significantly less fun than the level gating in the previous alpha.

[Kage848]

if you don't like how things are for singleplayer you can always edit the .xml files or just us the debug menu to give yourself exp to get points with. Or just spawn in a motorcycle to use. The base settings are not the end all be all of everything.

 

This is a good point. But im not about modding the game. I want to being this kinda stuff up to TFP so they can balance it and make a better game, for sp and mp alike. If you disagree with my points that's cool, but I think i have a good idea here.

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

Bear in mind, there already is a difference in MP and SP with levelling - the XP points are much less per person in a party, so 2 or 3 people will get their next level slower if they're killing at the same rate 1 person would kill at in SP.

 

Good point. The meta thats developing in mp is facanating. Your group actually gets way more xp, and faster, than a sp but you level slower because its spread out among other players.

 

But those 3 players get 3x the skill points of a sp. That's the issue.

[Aerial]

But those 3 players get 3x the skill points of a sp. That's the issue.

 

Hubby and I came to the conclusion that there wasn't much in the way of attributes that we could specialize in (i.e. that the other person wouldn't need/want to take). In A16, I would concentrate on cooking, forge, concrete construction, and mining while he would focus on guns, ammo, scavenging and electricity. And we could more or less perk into those abilities without too much overlap.

 

In A17, we're both going to have to invest heavily in intelligence to keep to our preferred activities, and since we both prefer a hybrid combat style (ranged and melee) we will both have to spec up in those as well. Plus everyone needs some increase to harvesting yields and carrying capacity, so, while I can see our skill trees diverging eventually, it's not like we're going to be able to spend 200 points on unique abilities that neither of us would get as a single player.

 

Maybe there are MP teams out there who will find ways to specialize that really take advantage of the larger pool of points, but for us, at least, it's not going to be very different from SP.

[Evorith]

It is so simple to balance MP with SP, skill gains when you actually use the skill, like in A16, that give you perks every 25% etc. Reality of Specialization is just doing more of one thing and getting benefit from it.

 

Trying to limit the ability to do this has been done a lot recently LiF your own was one and it screwed the game up so much that when they made it a MMO the game died. Its not that hard.

[OnlyMeiya]

So there's no way to balance the game for the sp game and the mp game without a key game option. Skill point options.

 

I love the idea of specialization in mp. I really do, it's a fantastic idea. Not so much for sp though.

 

In mp you can get a group of 3 friends, work together, and do it all. In sp, your screwed. Now that's not the state of the game today but im worried its heading that way.

 

The reverse is true too. If you give the sp all the stuff he wants, not even nessesarly all the perks but the good ones, then the mp game get screwed because there little to no need to specialize.

 

So, 1 game option, just 1. Hey if you can add 4 different run speed options you can add this lol. Just an option to adjust how many points we get per level. I dont even want that many more tbh, many like 1 extra point every 2 or 3 levels. You could then let the players balance the skills in there mp game by changing the skill points in the opposite way, like 3 or 4 points per level, for maximum specialization.

 

You wont get any kind of real balance giving the same amount of perk points to both sp and mp, just wont work.

 

I've suggested this many many times, over the course of many many years... devs don't care about multiplayer or pvp, in fact its been said madmole wants to move completely away from it. I can certainly say when that happens, the game will go RIP, only very few of us MP/PVP players actually bother with these forums anymore tbh because we only get ostracized and scrutinized.

 

I've voiced my concerns many times and it 99% of the time immediately resulted in trolling and flame war followed by a mod locking or deleting the thread (Even though I remained civil, people deliberately act like tards to get it locked and deleted I guess.

[dregonazure]

as far as perks go, i cant see a good reason why there isnt an ingame way to at least reset your perks say like in conan exiles, or let you max out all perks over a verrrrry long time like in fallout 4 or dark souls

[Pizzalicious]

Kage, I have 3 MP servers of 30 players each. The big communities and the solo players we have, have worked together to form a great community since Alpha 8. TFP have continuously said that the game will not be optimized past 8 players but F Rules, our servers are still going strong (although one is dead right now). It's high time that TFP get with the times and acknowledge the fact that the vast majority of MP Dedi servers are above 8 players.

[unholyjoe]

Kage, I have 3 MP servers of 30 players each. The big communities and the solo players we have, have worked together to form a great community since Alpha 8. TFP have continuously said that the game will not be optimized past 8 players but F Rules, our servers are still going strong (although one is dead right now). It's high time that TFP get with the times and acknowledge the fact that the vast majority of MP Dedi servers are above 8 players.

 

BUT... nobody from TFP staff said that you are not allowed to either.

[Pizzalicious]

Didnt say that they did but it is always implied that the we should turn down the server pop to 8 players because of "x" problem we have. If the game wasnt set up for larger scale servers why even give the option to hosting providers to allow for it.

[fazi]

So there's no way to balance the game for the sp game and the mp game without a key game option. Skill point options.

 

I love the idea of specialization in mp. I really do, it's a fantastic idea. Not so much for sp though.

 

In mp you can get a group of 3 friends, work together, and do it all. In sp, your screwed. Now that's not the state of the game today but im worried its heading that way.

 

The reverse is true too. If you give the sp all the stuff he wants, not even nessesarly all the perks but the good ones, then the mp game get screwed because there little to no need to specialize.

 

So, 1 game option, just 1. Hey if you can add 4 different run speed options you can add this lol. Just an option to adjust how many points we get per level. I dont even want that many more tbh, many like 1 extra point every 2 or 3 levels. You could then let the players balance the skills in there mp game by changing the skill points in the opposite way, like 3 or 4 points per level, for maximum specialization.

 

You wont get any kind of real balance giving the same amount of perk points to both sp and mp, just wont work.

 

Some ppl want to specialize, some dont want.I want my character to be able to take all perks/skills.

The specialization, could be via some skills that level by doing that action, like it used to be,Also can be made via some rare mods/books.Specialization has to be posible, but not mandatory!

[Ghostlight]

So there's no way to balance the game for the sp game and the mp game without a key game option. Skill point options.

 

I love the idea of specialization in mp. I really do, it's a fantastic idea. Not so much for sp though.

 

In mp you can get a group of 3 friends, work together, and do it all. In sp, your screwed.

 

I have to reply that I cannot see a problem at all as far as perks and skill point go. I will preface this by stating I have 3 games on the go currently as follows:

 

a) Main Save: Co-op on Navesgane. Day 42. My friend is the player specc'ed into Intelligence.

b) 2nd save: Solo on RWG. Currently day 28.

c) 3rd save: Co-op on RWG. Day 12. *I* am the player specc'ed into Intelligence.

 

So I feel I have experienced all sides of the balance issue and I personally feel the perks are just fine. I am getting on about the same in all 3 saves. Shrug.

 

That said there are at least two MAJOR inbalances between SP and MP, that are nothing to do with perks, which may be what is feeding Kage's opinion....

 

1) The shared player XP for allies is OP. Solo I can enter a house with 20 zombies in it, kill them all and come away with ~12000 XP. In my co-op group, all of us will come away with ~90% of 12000XP for killing the same 20 zombies (well slightly harder zombies, but whatever). Yet we will kill them faster and safer than solo.

 

2) In MP, the calculation for GS ignores the player whose GS is lowest!!!! This is crazy. It means that not only is a 3-player group only facing a GS that is roughly double what a solo player would face, but also that 2 players is the sweet spot, as they face the same GS as a solo player. Either way this means that difficulty for solo player is way out of whack compared to any number of co-op players.

[Ghostlight]

As someone that has played 90% SP I see zero issue with the new system. It makes SP even easier. .

 

Indeed. I am unsure what Kage's ultimate motive is here but he seems to coming from the "SP is too hard compared to MP" camp.

 

Whereas imo at least, it is SP that is just fine, while MP is too easy in comparison.

[crambaza]

I disagree with the notion that there is no way to balance the game for SP and MP without a game option for skill points.

 

I feel that this is because of the misuse of the word "balance".

 

I think you are trying to tell us that there is no way to make a SP game feel the same as in a MP game. And that's to be expected. The entire idea of it is that more people make things easier.

 

I feel like the game is currently being balanced for SP, with the skills and perks. I play SP on almost default settings right now and it feels good.

 

When I play MP, we have to kick up the difficulty a lot to feel challenged. This means harder zombies, and way way more of them during hordes. That's fine.

 

In SP, during the first few nights, I hunker down somewhere, and try not to die. In MP, we wander around outside at night. My friend launches a few arrows, and I club the ones that get close. It gets scary at times, but it's fun. And different. And to be expected.

 

To summarize, SP and MP experiences will be different. I feel the sweet spot right now is in the SP game on default. MP needs some settings changed to be challenging, and balanced, but they are not the same. That's how it works.

[LuckyStar]

Kage, I have 3 MP servers of 30 players each. The big communities and the solo players we have, have worked together to form a great community since Alpha 8. TFP have continuously said that the game will not be optimized past 8 players but F Rules, our servers are still going strong (although one is dead right now). It's high time that TFP get with the times and acknowledge the fact that the vast majority of MP Dedi servers are above 8 players.

 

Madmole mentioned in a Q&A Video that a focus on Multiplayer is such a huge project that it would take the entire team.

Because of this it's going to be the last thing they work on before Beta.

 

It's not that TFP aren't acknowledging MP servers, it's that they want to do it right and completely focus on it.

Right now they have other priorities.

 

So.... it's just a matter of waiting it out.

Sorry, I know that's not what you want to hear but... this is a game in development.

We don't always get the answers we want, when want them.

 

I want Colonies. Badly.

Don't know if they are even coming.

At least you have confirmation that TFP really ARE going to focus on MP at some point.

That's something right?

[OnlyMeiya]

Madmole mentioned in a Q&A Video that a focus on Multiplayer is such a huge project that it would take the entire team.

Because of this it's going to be the last thing they work on before Beta.

 

It's not that TFP aren't acknowledging MP servers, it's that they want to do it right and completely focus on it.

Right now they have other priorities.

 

So.... it's just a matter of waiting it out.

Sorry, I know that's not what you want to hear but... this is a game in development.

We don't always get the answers we want, when want them.

 

I want Colonies. Badly.

Don't know if they are even coming.

At least you have confirmation that TFP really ARE going to focus on MP at some point.

That's something right?

 

This game has been in development for about 6 years now.

[LuckyStar]

This game has been in development for about 6 years now.

 

And?

 

Games take time.

 

How long have Avatar 2 and 3 been in the making?

I believe it's ten years if I'm not mistaken.

 

Some projects take time.

[madmole]

I don't want 7 Days focused on MP at all. I'm just saying with a skill point per level setting it can make the people that love MP and SP happy at the same time.

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

 

 

And that's been a very good way of handling things. But Id still like to get all those really cool skills. If the game becomes too easy I can always up the difficulty to compensate. Harder enemies with me having more abilities > weaker enemies because I have less toys to play with.

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

 

 

Yea and that's cool. If you want to limit yourself to fewer skills playing alone that's great. But for those of us who don't want to miss out on those abilities we shouldn't have to.

 

To be clear I don't think this is a problem atm and never has been. Just saying if you added this feature you could really squeeze the people in MP teams if they want to, so they can specialize. I know I would on my MP server.

You mean give them less than 1 perk per level?

[OnlyMeiya]

And?

 

Games take time.

 

How long have Avatar 2 and 3 been in the making?

I believe it's ten years if I'm not mistaken.

 

Some projects take time.

 

Those are the exception and not the rule, you are taking it as confirmation bias I think because you know of one or few other games that are also lagging behind in the developmental stages.

 

My point is this game has been in development for an excessively long time and core mechanics of the game keep changing over the years, at this rate we will most likely not see a full game release and the dream of having some MP love will likely never come to fruition.

 

I don't want 7 Days focused on MP at all. I'm just saying with a skill point per level setting it can make the people that love MP and SP happy at the same time.

 

Just because you only want attention on single player is extremely bias to your opinion here, many MANY players only play these types of games for the online experience, you learn so much more from playing with other players, learn many cool tricks, efficiency builds, raiding tactics, anti raiding base builds, when you dive into multiplayer and learn enough from it, single player pretty much becomes a joke to you.

 

You mean give them less than 1 perk per level?

 

Can't tell if youre being sarcastic or considering that

[LuckyStar]

Those are the exception and not the rule, you are taking it as confirmation bias I think because you know of one or few other games that are also lagging behind in the developmental stages.

 

Oh pleeeease share with us your VAST knowledge of Game Development then.

State your sources if you think 7DTD is so far behind.

 

I don't agree one bit with your statement that TFP are behind.

7DTD is right on target with the average from what I've observed.

What's more, others have posted on this very forum the development times of major games.

The 5-7 year window seems to be a regular occurrence.

 

I think what some people take out of context is companies like EA and MS vomit out lackluster products within 3 years with large teams.

Doesn't make that the norm.

 

Sorry.... can't agree with you here.

[OnlyMeiya]

Agree or disagree, That's what forums are for, but lets not troll or be vastly sarcastic.

 

The game devs are more worried about making the game look pretty than making the game, well, work.

You don't agree they're behind? Game still have bugs from earlier alpha builds that still go unfixed.

 

Combat is very lackluster at best.

Lots of structural integrity problems.

Duping is still a huge problem,

Seeing through the ground is still a huge problem. (and because of chest quests its an exploit people can use to find them way easier without the skill (when it was a thing )

Game is very badly optimized even on high end computer gaming machines; extremely graphic intensive. Quite much for a game run in the Unity Engine.

Frequent Memory leaks, game cache` problems game crashing, multiple problems with players trying to run servers, very BAD admin kit for players that are running their own server can't even properly police it.

 

After 5-6 years? Game looks pretty, lots of changes keep being made but the same problems still pretty much exist, thats why they're behind.

 

 

I will agree that with the EA comment. lol

 

 

Let's compare this to the games more frequent commonly know "compared too" Minecraft.

 

There's a reason that game blows 7days out of the park, despite it all looking like oversized 8bit pixils. Graphics do not need to be the driving force of the game, nor does tedious/chore game play.

 

The game emulates resource gathering in a way that makes me want to do it, not that I've been forced to do it because arbitrary reasons, thats the key meaning in all this.

 

"I want to do it."

 

When I play this I'm forced into this very linear game play style of "grind"

 

but in minecraft I WANT to farm exp, because I WANT those level 30 enchants on my diamond weapon and armor.

 

I don't grind xp because I want a forge, I grind because I NEED a forge, and the only way to get one is to grind for it or get lucky and locate one in the wild.

 

That's why late game is more desirable, not because I have sniper or military gear or mods, but because I want those mods, I want to have a big strong base that defends itself, I want to see players get frustrated on it, and I want to see players desire to learn from it, or learn from me, or to teach me something new if they can still get through.

 

In a game that's over 6 years old, I still can't have a bone?

[OzHawkeye]

Agree or disagree, That's what forums are for, but lets not troll or be vastly sarcastic.

 

The game devs are more worried about making the game look pretty than making the game, well, work.

You don't agree they're behind? Game still have bugs from earlier alpha builds that still go unfixed.

 

You complain about LuckyStar being "vastly sarcastic", yet in both of your prior posts, you've assumed to know TFP's own thought processes and intents.

 

Your arguments would be a lot more convincing if you stuck to your own opinions and didn't i) assume to know the entire gaming industry or ii) assume to know TFP's inner most thoughts.

[OnlyMeiya]

You complain about LuckyStar being "vastly sarcastic", yet in both of your prior posts, you've assumed to know TFP's own thought processes and intents.

 

Your arguments would be a lot more convincing if you stuck to your own opinions and didn't i) assume to know the entire gaming industry or ii) assume to know TFP's inner most thoughts.

 

I'm reciting what TFP and other forum dwarfs have preached at me over the years, not only that but I've shared countless arguments between the devs and other forum trolls about various topics on game play balance, and other mechanics that are problems. (And a few private conversations with Roland)

 

Hell my first year on the forums I was arbitrarily banned without any explanation and had to create a new account.