A meta-discussion about modding

[Kubikus]

It also saves people a lot of time focusing on individuals and helping. People get busy and I know I bug sphereii enough in private over things. His and xyths tutorial for Mecanim were instrumental in getting me off my ass and learning. The xpath tutorials are wonderful. Maybe Kub would be less grumpy if he had a RWG tutorial he could refer to?

 

Or maybe he would still be grumpy, I don't know.

I would still be grumpy. I could learn RWG and Unity and whatnot. No problem. I'm a great and a fast learner.

 

I don't want to learn. I want everything to be super easy, as easy as possible. And I don't mean that anybody outside the company should do anything. No, those who earn all the money should do their very best to make everything as simple as possible.

 

Having said that, the things I am grumpy about are those that were removed. That I invested a lot of time into already, like the skill system, or earlier the static spawner. I don't like wasting my time. But then again, I also understand what early access means, so noone has to waste their time to lecture me. I'm still grumpy, though. Cuz it's annoying when a new alpha drops and your mod is practically dead.

 

And that is because I mod to play, not play to mod. I mod maybe 5-10% of the time I am occupied with 7dtd. It seems that some modders have a different perspective. For example when it come to terrain generation, I can hardly imagine that one would learn the stuff and take the time it takes to test settings over and over again, if they don't have a specific interest in terrain generation. I doubt someone would make all that effort just to get a pretty canyon in the game.

[JaxTeller718]

 

I don't want to learn. I want everything to be super easy, as easy as possible.

 

*shrugs*

 

I had a working zombie in Mecanim in one evening of reading. I've already made over 60 edits and changes prepping for Ravenhearst. Was it a bit confusing at first? Sure. But its not impossible. And I'm sure I will learn RWG too. My team is excited to make a static map with random pois. We are planning lore and everything. Im sure Guppy will use it to his extreme advantage for Medieval Mod. Just hand me a tutorial and Im gold. Its all i ever really ask.

 

Things change and it sucks. I have to redo all my models, I have to reanimate over 30 entities in Mecanim. But when you love something its not really work. I enjoy the learning process, even though sphere and xyth will tell you Im awful at it lol.

 

I understand why you're discouraged, but I also know these changes are for the future, and it will allow us to make mods for years after Pimps have moved on. Our own Skyrim, or Minecraft. Endless possibilities. That alone excites me more than being upset at having to relearn.

 

And this is from someone who never opened an XML before 2016, and only installed Unity for the first time in 2017. This stuff is not that complicated.

[AnsontheToad]

I don't want to learn. I want everything to be super easy, as easy as possible.

 

Exactly what's wrong with the world today. Everyone wants everything given to them without earning it. Because everyone is "special" and everyone deserves everything. No. No one is special no one deserves anything. You work for it, you earn it. Put in some effort then ask for help if needed. That's how the world is supposed to work.

 

Serializing a field to xml is technically easy. But, it can cause issues. These things have to be done slowly to make debugging easier.

 

Give them time stop being so demanding.

[Mumpfy]

[Exxodous]

 

I don't want to learn. I want everything to be super easy, as easy as possible.

 

 

 

^^ I'll just leave this here.....

[gkuba]

If everybody always just says "yeah I can do that with some advanced method" (and those who want to be able to do it without such a method are declared leeches and lazy and whatnot), it might occur to the devs that it's not really necessary to make modding more convenient. But that as well is just a thought and not an assumption.

 

You completely missed what my post and 90% of what the posts on here are telling you.

 

Be happy TFP have done anything to make modding easier at all and stop complaining. If you spent half the time you have arguing why YOU are right and why it should all be handed to YOU so YOU don't have to think instead maybe picking up a tutorial or asking for help on the part that is stopping you then your project could have been well on its way by now.

 

This thread isn't going to make TFP change how they are doing things no matter how much you think it might.

[Tin]

 

But But But! We are nerds

Embrace your nerdyness with pride!

[Mumpfy]

yeah i ment the "few" part... we are millons, we are legion

[Tin]

yeah i ment the "few" part... we are millons, we are legion

 

Nerds unite!

[gwhit]

I just learned Mecanim last night after being an old codger grumpster saying i didn't want to and holy ♥♥♥♥ its amazing and easy.

 

I was same way back in 2004 working as back end web programmer for a news paper publisher. I was working with php to make website to integrate with the object-c program I made to convert the layout tool they used to PDF for use with php serving it. The paper Editor-in-ch heard of this new web frame work called django written in python I was grumble that sucks...But after bitching and moaning for a hour I dug into python and found it to be to this day my favorite lang to work in..

[stallionsden]

My lord how dare tfp do this to you kubikus. I am shocked and appalled. How can you be treated like this. Tfp you should be ashamed of allowing US modders great opportunities and allow us to do what you have allowed us to do and enjoy what we MODDERS do best. Thank you for a17 it is brilliant a modders paradise. The game is a completely new game.

 

Kubikus is there anything you dont complain about rather then be appreciated of what your given and thankful tfp even allowed is to mod THEIR game.

[Kubikus]

Hey gais. Y'all having a lot of fun, I see? Here is a fun fact on top of that:

 

The vast majority of modders never goes beyond XML modding. Most just do the little tweaks, and think exactly like me, that learning SDX and C# and Unity is too big a threshold. What percentage goes beyond XML? 5 to 10%? Probably closer to 5 than to 10.

 

Just face the truth: For most people modding 7 days to die is not important enough to overcome learning curves. That's why modding should be super simple and as easy as possible. I see not a single counter argument, so... Nerd on, you diligent few.

[KhaineGB]

You do realise some of the more popular games probably have LESS modding support than this one, right?

 

Minecraft is an immediate example.

 

The resources to learn and go further are out there. Use them. In the mean time, TFP HAVE said they are committed to opening up as much of the XML as possible. So... wait.

[Kubikus]

You do realise some of the more popular games probably have LESS modding support than this one, right?

 

Minecraft is an immediate example.

And Skyrim. I love Skyrim. Never modded it myself, though.

 

The resources to learn and go further are out there. Use them. In the mean time, TFP HAVE said they are committed to opening up as much of the XML as possible. So... wait.

Yes, I wait. I have said that already. My actual complaint is more along the lines that I disagree with statements like "as long as a few nerds can mod a certain something, it's all good and noone may beweep a removed feature. So once more: If it is possible to open up a thing for xml modding, it should be done. It would be a benefit to everybody.

 

That's all I'm saying. My new catchphrase.

[KhaineGB]

Skyrim is a BALL ACHE to mod. I looked into it myself.

 

There are some things they can't open up to XML modding though. New models being one. Still need unity to convert the raw asset into something the game can understand (though we CAN load assets via XML now without SDX, so that's awesome)

 

I really, really, really hope that we get the ability to load .WAV or .MP3 files without unity though, just because that makes sound modding easier.

[Kubikus]

Skyrim is a BALL ACHE to mod. I looked into it myself.

Yeah, I had once begun to create a hideout, but the bugs alone just made me stop. Simply not worth it.

 

There are some things they can't open up to XML modding though. New models being one. Still need unity to convert the raw asset into something the game can understand (though we CAN load assets via XML now without SDX, so that's awesome)

Had that covered already as well, if it's not possible, obviously I understand that it can't happen. I'm just talking about giving access where it is possible. Also create tools that are built into the game, like a terrain generator tool. Sliders with tool tips that explain what you're doing, maybe a basic preview. Instead of... this:

 

<!--
GENERATOR MODULE TYPES
    AbsoluteOutput
       Add
       BiasOutput
       Blend
       ClampOutput
       CurveOutput
       DisplaceInput
       ExponentialOutput
       InvertInput
       InvertOutput
       LargerOutput
       Multiply
       Power
       RotateInput
       ScaleBiasOutput
       ScaleInput
       ScaleOutput
       Select
       SmallerOutput
       Terrace
       TranslateInput
       Billow
       Checkerboard
       Constant
       FastBillow
       FastNoise
       FastNoiseBasis
       FastRidgedMultifractal
       FastTurbulence
       GradientNoiseBasis
       RidgedMultifractal
       Turbulence
       Voronoi

-->

<terrain_generators>
	<!--
	<terrain_generator name="vanilla2" base_height="32" water_level="38">
		<module name="HM" type="NoiseFromImage">
			<property name="metersPerPixel" value="15.14"/>
			<property name="imageFile" value="sarek.png"/>
		</module>
		<module name="BIAS" type="BiasOutput">
			<property name="sourceModule" value="HM"/>
			<property name="bias" value="-30"/>
		</module>
		<output module="BIAS"/>
	</terrain_generator>
	-->
<terrain_generator name="vanilla" base_height="32" water_level="41">
		<!-- Total Module Count [62] -->
		<!--  Module Block: Main Land  [12] modules -->
		<module name="lnd_Fn" type="FastNoise" seed_additive="1024">
			<property name="frequency" value="0.00625"/>
			<property name="persistence" value="0.5"/>
			<property name="octave" value="1"/>
		</module>
		<module name="lnd_Fn1" type="FastNoise" seed_additive="1024">
			<property name="frequency" value="0.00625"/>
			<property name="persistence" value="0.25"/>
			<property name="octave" value="1"/>
		</module>
		<module name="lnd_Cu" type="CurveOutput">
			<property name="sourceModule" value="lnd_Fn"/>
			<property name="source_module1" value="lnd_Fn1"/>
			<property name="controlPoints" value="-4.0,0.05; -3.0,-0.05; -2.00,-0.1; -1.00,0.05; -0.1,-0.05; 1.00,0.05; 2.00,-0.05; 3.0,0.0; 4.0,0.05"/>
			<!--<property name="controlPoints" value="-2.00,-0.1; -1.00,0.05; -0.1,-0.05; 1.00,0.05; 2.00,-0.05"/>-->
			<!--<property name="controlPoints" value="-2.00,-0.1; -1.75,-0.05; -1.50,0.0; -1.25,0.05; -1.00,0.05; -0.75,0.05; -0.50,0.0; -0.05,-0.05; 0.00,-0.05; 0.25,0.0; 0.50,0.05; 0.75,0.1; 1.00,0.05; 1.25,0.0; 1.50,-0.05; 1.75,-0.1; 2.00,-0.05"/>-->
		</module>
		<module name="lnd_Sb0" type="ScaleBiasOutput">
			<property name="sourceModule" value="lnd_Cu"/>
			<property name="scale" value="0.25"/>
			<property name="bias" value="-0.1"/>
		</module>
		<module name="lnd_Fr1" type="Spheres" seed_additive="2">
			<property name="frequency" value="0.0000175"/> 
			<property name="persistence" value="0.5"/>
			<property name="octave" value="8"/>
		</module>
		<module name="lnd_Sb1" type="ScaleBiasOutput">
			<property name="sourceModule" value="lnd_Fr1"/>
			<property name="scale" value="0.375"/>
			<property name="bias" value="0.625"/>
		</module>
		<module name="lnd_Sm" type="SmallerOutput">
			<property name="sourceModule1" value="lnd_Sb1"/>
			<property name="sourceModule2" value="lnd_Sb0"/>
		</module>
		<module name="lnd_Cl" type="ClampOutput">
			<property name="sourceModule" value="lnd_Sm"/>
			<property name="bounds" value="-1,1"/>
		</module>
		<module name="lnd_Tu0" type="FastTurbulence" seed_additive="1024">
			<property name="sourceModule" value="lnd_Cl"/>
			<property name="frequency" value="0.0175"/>
			<property name="power" value="1"/>
			<property name="roughness" value="13"/>
		</module>
		<!--<module name="lnd_Tu1" type="FastTurbulence" seed_additive="0">
			<property name="sourceModule" value="lnd_Tu0"/>
			<property name="frequency" value="0.0175"/>
			<property name="power" value="2"/>
			<property name="roughness" value="12"/>
		</module>
		<module name="lnd_Tu2" type="FastTurbulence" seed_additive="0">
			<property name="sourceModule" value="lnd_Tu1"/>
			<property name="frequency" value="0.0175"/>
			<property name="power" value="3"/>
			<property name="roughness" value="11"/>
		</module>-->
		<module name="lnd_Se" type="Select">
			<property name="controlModule" value="lnd_Cl"/>
			<property name="sourceModule1" value="lnd_Cl"/>
			<property name="sourceModule2" value="lnd_Tu0"/>
			<property name="bounds" value="0,1024"/>
			<property name="edgeFalloff" value="0.06125"/>
		</module>
		<module name="lnd_Refiner" type="ScaleBiasOutput">
			<property name="sourceModule" value="lnd_Se"/>
			<property name="scale" value="1"/> <!-- Set scale at "1" to output 100% defined in the Moudule block -->
			<property name="bias" value="0.0"/> 
		</module>

		<!--  Module Block: Mountains (Positions/ High/ Low/ Terra) [21] modules -->
		<!-- Mountain Positions (8) modules -->
		<module name="mntPos_Fr0" type="FastRidgedMultifractal" seed_additive="0">
			<property name="frequency" value="0.00175"/>
			<property name="octave" value="6"/>
		</module>
		<module name="mntPos_Sb0" type="ScaleBiasOutput">
			<property name="sourceModule" value="mntPos_Fr0"/>
			<property name="scale" value="0.55"/>
			<property name="bias" value="0.375"/>
		</module>
		<module name="mntPos_Fr1" type="FastRidgedMultifractal" seed_additive="0">
			<property name="frequency" value="0.00175"/>
			<property name="octave" value="6"/>
		</module>
		<module name="mntPos_Sb1" type="ScaleBiasOutput">
			<property name="sourceModule" value="mntPos_Fr1"/>
			<property name="bias" value="-0.25"/>
			<property name="scale" value="-1"/>
		</module>
		<module name="mntPos_Co" type="Constant">
			<property name="constant" value="-0.0000025"/>
		</module>
		<module name="mntPos_Se" type="Select">
			<property name="sourceModule1" value="mntPos_Co"/>
			<property name="sourceModule2" value="mntPos_Sb0"/>
			<property name="controlModule" value="mntPos_Sb1"/>
			<property name="bounds" value="-0.5,1024"/>
			<property name="edgeFalloff" value="0.125"/>
		</module>
		<module name="mntPos_Tu0" type="FastTurbulence" seed_additive="0">
			<property name="sourceModule" value="mntPos_Se"/>
			<property name="frequency" value="0.000141"/>
			<property name="power" value="3"/>
			<property name="roughness" value="3"/>
		</module>
		<module name="mntPos_Tu1" type="FastTurbulence" seed_additive="0">
			<property name="sourceModule" value="mntPos_Tu0"/>
			<property name="frequency" value="0.000157"/>
			<property name="power" value="3"/>
			<property name="roughness" value="5"/>
		</module>
		<!-- Mountain High (4) modules -->
		<module name="mntHigh_Fr0" type="FastRidgedMultifractal" seed_additive="0">
			<property name="frequency" value="0.0027"/>
			<property name="octave" value="5"/>
		</module>
		<module name="mntHigh_Fr1" type="RidgedMultifractal" seed_additive="0">
			<property name="frequency" value="0.0025"/>
			<property name="octave" value="5"/>
		</module>
		<module name="mntHigh_Lo" type="LargerOutput">
			<property name="sourceModule1" value="mntHigh_Fr0"/>
			<property name="sourceModule2" value="mntHigh_Fr1"/>
		</module>
		<module name="mntHigh_Tu0" type="FastTurbulence" seed_additive="0">
			<property name="sourceModule" value="mntHigh_Lo"/>
			<property name="frequency" value="0.00141"/>
			<property name="power" value="5"/>
			<property name="roughness" value="5"/>
		</module>
		<!-- Mountain Low (3) modules-->
		<module name="mntLow_Fr0" type="FastRidgedMultifractal" seed_additive="0">
			<property name="frequency" value="0.00027"/>
			<property name="octave" value="3"/>
		</module>
		<module name="mntLow_Fr1" type="RidgedMultifractal" seed_additive="0">
			<property name="frequency" value="0.00125"/>
			<property name="octave" value="3"/>
		</module>
		<module name="mntLow_Mu" type="Multiply">
			<property name="sourceModule1" value="mntLow_Fr0"/>
			<property name="sourceModule2" value="mntLow_Fr1"/>
		</module>

Are you kidding me.. lol (had to cut out half the code to stay within the max char restriction...)

 

Another thought I had earlier: Those tools, like SDX or UABE, no idea if they are actually specifically made for 7dtd - if so, why not hire the guy who makes such a tool, pay a decent salary and make it an integral part of the game? One reason why I'm scepitcal of these tools is that it seems that they often need a while to update when a new alpha comes out. Another annoyance.

 

I really, really, really hope that we get the ability to load .WAV or .MP3 files without unity though, just because that makes sound modding easier.

Or block textures. I don't know anything about these things, but in Minecraft you could just copypaste a texture-thingy into some folder, and there you... went. And look at how different Minecraft can look. It'd be in the company's best interest to make all these things possible.

[KhaineGB]

See, block textures I agree with you on. It's an atlas file.

 

You know what else is an atlas file? Item Icons... and we can TOTALLY load those straight from a folder. The RWGMixer is a pain, too. I only know how to add prefabs to it. Anything else I struggle with, but the game DOES have a Level Editor built in now so you can create your own world entirely by hand (would take a while though) and then distribute it if you so wish.

 

So that's cool.

 

SDX is... pretty much integrated at this point. Most people used it to load new entities/blocks/etc and we can do that in the vanilla game now, which is awesome. I'm super happy about that.

 

UABE is... yeah. Technically that breaks the encryption/compression method on the asset files... sooooo...

[DUST2DEATH]

Block textures are no longer a Atlas.

 

They are an array. That we dont have access to.

Even if UABE worked on the blocks bundle, we still wouldnt be able to access the block textures.

[stallionsden]

Why would modders want easy for. If you give modders easy they will get bored and not mod. Modders like a challenge. Modders like to prove the code wrong. Most of all modders like to show case their talent and brilliance.

 

The modding communuty work together here and we all problem solve and discuss how we can get around issues etc. Yet here you want to stand alone and state it needs to be easy your lazy and dont want to learn. That is on you.

 

A true modder learns the path and gets stuck In. One that wants wants wants the easy path wont ever go past his/her own ego. Learn to mod using the various amounts of tools at your disposal or simply request a mod and if you havent pi**ed or upset a modder maybe someone would do it for you and you can carry on being lazy

[elucidus]

Why would modders want easy for. If you give modders easy they will get bored and not mod. Modders like a challenge. Modders like to prove the code wrong. Most of all modders like to show case their talent and brilliance.

 

The modding communuty work together here and we all problem solve and discuss how we can get around issues etc. Yet here you want to stand alone and state it needs to be easy your lazy and dont want to learn. That is on you.

 

A true modder learns the path and gets stuck In. One that wants wants wants the easy path wont ever go past his/her own ego. Learn to mod using the various amounts of tools at your disposal or simply request a mod and if you havent pi**ed or upset a modder maybe someone would do it for you and you can carry on being lazy

 

I don't necessarily agree with that. Modders want to mod, they usually have a vision of what they are shooting for, and they will try creative ways to make that happen. Yes, they will push the edge of what is possible, but easier has nothing to do with ego. If general modding is easier it will be available to more people, but at the same time, if things that should work, don't work, you will lose modders.

 

For example I have been trying to change a core mechanic of civilization since the forth installment, and while six has with it a much easier methodology of modding, several key areas of the modding tools are broken, and have yet to be addressed. Even though I have found crazy ways ot make things happen that I wanted, without being able to accomplish certain things, like proper cities on mountains or changing the resource count, I walked away from the modding scene.

[stallionsden]

I don't necessarily agree with that. Modders want to mod, they usually have a vision of what they are shooting for, and they will try creative ways to make that happen. Yes, they will push the edge of what is possible, but easier has nothing to do with ego. If general modding is easier it will be available to more people, but at the same time, if things that should work, don't work, you will lose modders.

 

For example I have been trying to change a core mechanic of civilization since the forth installment, and while six has with it a much easier methodology of modding, several key areas of the modding tools are broken, and have yet to be addressed. Even though I have found crazy ways ot make things happen that I wanted, without being able to accomplish certain things, like proper cities on mountains or changing the resource count, I walked away from the modding scene.

 

I agree with the vision. But look at skyrim. Fallout big name companies leave it to the modders to fix the issues.

 

Tfp arent like that they value their customers and will release what they want when they want and when its ready. This demanding rubbish would make me personally say stuff ya and keep the stuff hidden.

 

I dont necessarily think if things should work but dont it be upto the modders to decide whether to fox what's broken after a game has been released or not. Many take up the challenge tho. Walking away is completely different to not trying and just demanding tho to

[elucidus]

I agree with the vision. But look at skyrim. Fallout big name companies leave it to the modders to fix the issues.

 

Tfp arent like that they value their customers and will release what they want when they want and when its ready. This demanding rubbish would make me personally say stuff ya and keep the stuff hidden.

 

I dont necessarily think if things should work but dont it be upto the modders to decide whether to fox what's broken after a game has been released or not. Many take up the challenge tho. Walking away is completely different to not trying and just demanding tho to

 

I didn't even know we were discussing all of this, but how are TFP different than Bethesda? They all release it when they want and how they want, it is up to modders to make it their own. Modders have a different vision than the developers, it is that way for every game. I didn't place any demands on anyone.

[stallionsden]

I didn't even know we were discussing all of this, but how are TFP different than Bethesda? They all release it when they want and how they want, it is up to modders to make it their own. Modders have a different vision than the developers, it is that way for every game. I didn't place any demands on anyone.

 

First lol I wasnt saying you were demanding anything lol. A certain someone else was tho.

 

Second Bethesda is known for leaving their games to modders to fix. Bethesda don't care they make their money and then go stuff it game complete and release. This game is still being developed and worked on.

 

Yes modders add alot to games to and make mods they invision but when it comes to Bethesda games they also fix the issues and bugs Bethesda cant be bothered with

[elucidus]

Fair enough on all points.