Vehicles on Horde night

[ArcticPrism]

See now why do I think you're going to run into trouble with that statement?

 

 

Yeah, I know but they put the mechanic in the game. In alpha 15 or 16 they even changed it so that they endlessly spawn in the player's area instead of only at the spot the player was at the start of the horde. To me that sounds like engaging the horde is an intended part of gameplay.

 

I just think there's a problem somewhere if driving aimlessly for 20 minutes(or however long your night is), alt tabbing underground or in a skyscraper, or even literally logging off and not not being in game are seen as more fun alternatives than engaging the horde for so many people considering the 7 day horde is like the game's main gimmick.

 

At least if you're using a Minibike you're actively playing the game though. I think it's fair that you should be able to use it to avoid the horde. The problems with the minibike aren't just horde related though. It's broken in general. The bike is basically invincible and fuel is extremely plentiful. It even reduces damage the player takes while riding it.

[Viktoriusiii]

ONCE more before i go hang myself:

 

Survival games should provide challenges.

Sandbox games should provide freedom.

 

A challenge is there for you to overcome.

So if I have five options and only one lets me overcome the obstacle, there is no choice. Only illusion of choice.

 

And if there is an easy way to complete the challenge, nearly everyone will do so.

And that means its not a challenge anymore.

 

A player should NEVER! I repeat NEVER be forced to ignore better solutions to have the maximum amount of enjoyment.

 

For a choice to be meaningful it needs:

to make a difference

have different conditions and obstacles

have different rewards

And since this game is a survival horror game “just chilling“ and “beeing completely safe“ are completly opposed to the games incentive to work and fight for progress!

 

Swimming on top of a lake on hordenight:

-no drawbacks

-no condition

It doesn't make a difference that it is hordenight. Therefor everything you have been doing before (getting stuff and building) became meaningless.

You might as well play in creative.

 

Same goes for nearly all mentined exploits. Some are obviously worse then others, but all of them needs to be balanced in a way that a meaningful choice has to be taken.

[Kattla]

ONCE more before i go hang myself:

 

Survival games should provide challenges.

Sandbox games should provide freedom.

 

A challenge is there for you to overcome.

So if I have five options and only one lets me overcome the obstacle, there is no choice. Only illusion of choice.

 

And if there is an easy way to complete the challenge, nearly everyone will do so.

And that means its not a challenge anymore.

 

It can also mean they enjoy some parts of this game more then the horde part. Or that

they faced the horde so many times it's not a challenge anymore, but an annoying part

they are happy to skip every now and then if they can.

 

And no, i don't see a problem with there beeing "easier" solutions to the horde. Means the

game is open for more players, and type of players. Even those who choose to run away

to fight another day.

 

And creative MODE is not too bad. At least i can spawn in 50+ cops and have some clubbing

fun. Or gunslinging. I hope that one day they will add in option to spawn random zombie groups

instead of only 1 type at a time. If you really want a challenge, try creative mode. It's not as

bad as it sounds. Unless one hates creativity and challenges, that is.

[RestInPieces]

It can also mean they enjoy some parts of this game more then the horde part. Or that

they faced the horde so many times it's not a challenge anymore, but an annoying part

they are happy to skip every now and then if they can.

 

You will make Viktoriusiii hang himself with this paragraph , because none said that there should not be any other options for different playstyles, just that they have to either have equally weighted pros and cons!

 

And no, i don't see a problem with there beeing "easier" solutions to the horde. Means the

game is open for more players, and type of players. Even those who choose to run away

to fight another day.

 

Solutions can and should be different in nature. For example, if one wants to avoid the horde, he could be given the chance to prepare himself well in advance and reap the benefits of not having to fight. The argument started because getting a handful of gas to fly for a night with the gyro, doesn't really require any decent amount of preparation and it's extremely preferable over risking to fight the horde. If one has to make an actual effort to prepare (doesn't have to be difficult) and devote a decent amount of time/resources, the choice would have some meaning. Different strategies can vary in cost, risk, challenge or time.

 

And creative MODE is not too bad. At least i can spawn in 50+ cops and have some clubbing

fun. Or gunslinging. I hope that one day they will add in option to spawn random zombie groups

instead of only 1 type at a time. If you really want a challenge, try creative mode. It's not as

bad as it sounds. Unless one hates creativity and challenges, that is.

 

But that's what creative mode is for. A complete sandbox mode where one can do anything he wants, chill, build or challenge himself when he wants etc. If you enjoy it, great. Does it make sense for the same to happen in the survival mode? The point of survival mode, is for *the game* to present challenges so that those who play them can overcome them by making choices, employing strategies etc - that's how any survival game ever worked, that's why a lot of people enjoy them, that's why, in this game which is tagged as survival (among others), people ask for these kind of things.

[OzHawkeye]

The problem, RestInPieces and Viktoriusiii, is what exactly should the Pimps do to prevent someone from flying around in the 'copter all night?

 

Ok, so, it's (mostly) accepted, a survival game should offer meaningful choices - so avoiding the Horde should carry some meaningful penalty - but how exactly do you enforce that from a gameplay mechanics point of view?

 

Quite apart from the easy out of (at least in MP) just logging out on Horde night, but driving around on the minibike or (now) using the 'copter also quite easily, safely and inexpensively defeats the Horde.

 

I don't see how any of those strategies can be overcome though, unless you're going to make vehicles magically not work on Horde nights and/or prevent logging out of an MP server during Horde nights.

 

I get that avoiding the horde is a nearly-free "I WIN" button, but I don't see any way for the Pimps to put in any (reasonable) mechanic that will stop those players so inclined to skip the Horde from doing just exactly that.

[Kattla]

Solutions can and should be different in nature. For example, if one wants to avoid the horde, he could be given the chance to prepare himself well in advance and reap the benefits of not having to fight. The argument started because getting a handful of gas to fly for a night with the gyro, doesn't really require any decent amount of preparation and it's extremely preferable over risking to fight the horde. If one has to make an actual effort to prepare (doesn't have to be difficult) and devote a decent amount of time/resources, the choice would have some meaning. Different strategies can vary in cost, risk, challenge or time.

 

The minibike do require a bit of preparation, exploring and skillpoint spending already. So it is not free and

should fit your description perfectly fine as it is.

The gyro i cannot speak for, since A17 is not out yet.

And even if it is easier to drive through the night on horde nights, what is the problem? Those who want

the fight the horde will do so, and those who don't, will not.

 

Trying to force those who don't want to fight the horde to do so will not be good for their enjoyment, and mean

nothing to those who wants to fight it.

 

And no, this game is no longer pure survival, nor sandbox. It is heading for role playing with a mix of survival and

sandbox. At least it was, last time i looked. A jack of all trades, and a master of none thingie.

[boonecraft]

Imagine how terrifying this game would be with NO vehicles! Changes the whole game. Gives the game balls!

[RestInPieces]

The minibike do require a bit of preparation, exploring and skillpoint spending already. So it is not free and

should fit your description perfectly fine as it is.

The gyro i cannot speak for, since A17 is not out yet.

And even if it is easier to drive through the night on horde nights, what is the problem? Those who want

the fight the horde will do so, and those who don't, will not.

 

Trying to force those who don't want to fight the horde to do so will not be good for their enjoyment, and mean

nothing to those who wants to fight it.

 

And no, this game is no longer pure survival, nor sandbox. It is heading for role playing with a mix of survival and

sandbox. At least it was, last time i looked. A jack of all trades, and a master of none thingie.

 

It definitely doesn't fit in that category. The preparation you have to do and the gas you spend are menial.

As for the rest, you already got replies, but then again you are from Norway, the land of trolls so it doesn't seem to matter.

 

The problem, RestInPieces and Viktoriusiii, is what exactly should the Pimps do to prevent someone from flying around in the 'copter all night?

 

Ok, so, it's (mostly) accepted, a survival game should offer meaningful choices - so avoiding the Horde should carry some meaningful penalty - but how exactly do you enforce that from a gameplay mechanics point of view?

 

Quite apart from the easy out of (at least in MP) just logging out on Horde night, but driving around on the minibike or (now) using the 'copter also quite easily, safely and inexpensively defeats the Horde.

 

I don't see how any of those strategies can be overcome though, unless you're going to make vehicles magically not work on Horde nights and/or prevent logging out of an MP server during Horde nights.

 

I get that avoiding the horde is a nearly-free "I WIN" button, but I don't see any way for the Pimps to put in any (reasonable) mechanic that will stop those players so inclined to skip the Horde from doing just exactly that.

 

Thinking of a gameplay solution to these is the easiest task. Logging out is meta - one could use any kinds of means that involve hacks, cheat engines etc to avoid all kinds of mechanics, but that is irrelevant in the gameplay context and obviously it can't be taken as an example to balance the game around them.

 

From the top of my head, I would go for the Darkwood way, making electricity/machines unreliable on a blood moon (small random power outages). Unreliable enough for vehicles (since if they stop working even for a while you are done for), but reliable enough for traps, lights etc since a bit of an outage would not be significant. Another one could be that ferals have a disctint scream that temporarily disables vehicles. But I bet the people working on it can think of much better/realistic ways to find a solution.

[Aldranon]

From a design perspective I want a survival game to offer a risk for all forms of tactics. So I am all for driving around all night long but make it risky and challenging to do so. I am all for people digging underground but make it risky and challenging to do so. I am all for people building stilt bases but make it risky and challenging to do so.

 

Chosen strategies shouldn't be impossible nor should they be guaranteed. Neither of of these extremes are good design in my opinion. I don't care how anyone decides to play the game but the developers should look at strategies and any that are guaranteed they should introduce a bit of challenge and/or risk.

 

Maybe one of the most helpful comments anyone has said.

 

Counters to defenses, starting with the easiest night horde defenses:

 

Flying: Engine overheating, small gas tank, very cold, zombie vulture "kettle" attacks.

 

Moving while underground: Possible cave-ins at unsupported areas, toxic gas buildup at less traveled areas.

 

Stationary while underground: Strong digger zombies (bears).

 

System of above and below ground forts: None, the effort involved is late game.

[Viktoriusiii]

Thanks RIP for trying to save me some rope

 

Quick answers:

If you have the minibike, its permanent. The ONLY way it would fit my description would be, if gas was SUPER RARE. So that you would have to go around 5+ days collecting gas.

This would mean you are never totally safe (becaus if you did this for long enough, you would need to travel further and further)

 

But i love RIPs idea... even if i doubt, that they will implement it that way.

 

 

 

And Oz:

As rip said:

Logging off is not a gamemechanic intended for survival. Driving on a vehicle is.

 

And you cant force players not to log off. But you can do something against abuse of certain mechanics.

[Kattla]

It definitely doesn't fit in that category. The preparation you have to do and the gas you spend are menial.

 

And so are the preparation needed for fighting. Not much. Just a decent weapon of some sort.

[Kattla]

Imagine how terrifying this game would be with NO vehicles! Changes the whole game. Gives the game balls!

 

Just more tedious, and going exploring require a bit more thought put into the use of time.

[Viktoriusiii]

And so are the preparation needed for fighting. Not much. Just a decent weapon of some sort.

 

What?

 

Defence:

need ressources for all defenses/repairs, tools, you need to build it all, put thought into it, buy/sell/find stuff for defenses, find weapons and ammunition and more. and even if you did all that, when you are unlucky, you STILL die.

 

Driving away:

needs a minibike ONCE. Gas is so abundant you can get a days worth of gas in 15 minutes. Now you are set for life for EVERY horde. No matter how many cops and irradiated zombies there are.

 

 

You HONESTLY want to put those two in the same category?

 

*edit*

yes putting down 500 woodspikes also works... and I want that to be changed as well. I think they should reduce the slow or the damage to zombies. So yes even when you defend its not balanced. But we aren'T arguing for that. Everything should be balanced in a way that there is work/risk/reward.

 

A lot of work/low risk/medium reward (building a base with good defenses)

medium work/medium risk/ no reward (base on stilz/underground base when they get in its over)

no work/super high risk/medium reward (going out on hordenight and trying to fight them 1vs999)

 

this is how it should be.

but

nearly no work/no risk/no reward (finding a minibikebook and some gas)

is NOT fitting into this system.

[OzHawkeye]

I'm still basically of the opinion that, since a player so inclined will always find a way to avoid the Horde, the time spent by the Pimps in closing one strategy or another to do so, is more or less wasted. I'd rather they spend that time putting more content in.

 

I wouldn't be a fan of having my vehicles suddenly (and magically) stop working during the Blood Moon either to be honest, mostly for it's MP implications of happening to log in during a Blood Moon.

 

That said, if the Pimps put mechanics in to defeat the more obvious avoidance tactics, and it doesn't overly preoccupy them doing so, it's not going to be a big deal (or even a small one) for me.

[Kattla]

What?

 

Defence:

need ressources for all defenses/repairs, tools, you need to build it all, put thought into it, buy/sell/find stuff for defenses, find weapons and ammunition and more. and even if you did all that, when you are unlucky, you STILL die.

 

Driving away:

needs a minibike ONCE. Gas is so abundant you can get a days worth of gas in 15 minutes. Now you are set for life for EVERY horde. No matter how many cops and irradiated zombies there are.

 

 

You HONESTLY want to put those two in the same category?

 

 

Running or driving away from the horde is just as valid a strategy in survival and RPG

as fighting, as long as you survive. So yes, they are in the same category - Survival.

 

Building a base to use for fighting the horde is completly optional. But it can be great

fun doing so. Fighting the horde on ground level is not much higher a risk if you know what

you are doing. Though it may seem so until you done it.

[ArcticPrism]

It can also mean they enjoy some parts of this game more then the horde part. Or that

they faced the horde so many times it's not a challenge anymore, but an annoying part

they are happy to skip every now and then if they can.

 

This is a good point. I wonder how many people who avoid fighting the horde through any means necessary are those who fall into this category. How many gameplay hours would you have to have to reach a point where you've dealt with the horde long enough that you don't want to deal with them anymore. Also how long it would take for players to discover that they can avoid the horde, assuming they don't just look it up. A trap that's easy to fall into is balancing the overall game difficulty for people who have played for hundreds or thousands of hours.

[Viktoriusiii]

Running or driving away from the horde is just as valid a strategy in survival and RPG

as fighting, as long as you survive. So yes, they are in the same category - Survival.

 

Building a base to use for fighting the horde is completly optional. But it can be great

fun doing so. Fighting the horde on ground level is not much higher a risk if you know what

you are doing. Though it may seem so until you done it.

 

You act as if you think the game is godgiven (blessed be thy funeth pimps) and not done by other humans who might not have thought about certain abuses.

I repeat myself but:

But it is called “7days2die“

Not “7daysorwheneveritsconvenientforyoutodie,ornotSTOPJUDGINGMYPLAYSTYLE“

[Aldranon]

I'm still basically of the opinion that, since a player so inclined will always find a way to avoid the Horde, the time spent by the Pimps in closing one strategy or another to do so, is more or less wasted. I'd rather they spend that time putting more content in.

 

I wouldn't be a fan of having my vehicles suddenly (and magically) stop working during the Blood Moon either to be honest, mostly for it's MP implications of happening to log in during a Blood Moon.

 

That said, if the Pimps put mechanics in to defeat the more obvious avoidance tactics, and it doesn't overly preoccupy them doing so, it's not going to be a big deal (or even a small one) for me.

 

I believe the end quests should be something like finding a zombie repellent after some kind of populated NPC base is found or made. By then, the grind of constant repair of extensive walls will be getting old.

 

Or right from the beginning, help NPC's and traders that live on the surface or ignore them and let them be overrun by zombies one by one. Losing traders could be a game changer.

 

SO having a vehicle will not make the game so boring.

[ColdGate]

What?

 

Defence:

need ressources for all defenses/repairs, tools, you need to build it all, put thought into it, buy/sell/find stuff for defenses, find weapons and ammunition and more. and even if you did all that, when you are unlucky, you STILL die.

 

Driving away:

needs a minibike ONCE. Gas is so abundant you can get a days worth of gas in 15 minutes. Now you are set for life for EVERY horde. No matter how many cops and irradiated zombies there are.

 

 

You HONESTLY want to put those two in the same category?

 

Third option is run and fight all horde night without any base, and with little skill it become very easy and fun legit way to survive, even max difficulty with increased spawns. Only need alcohol, few meds and ammo. So what now? Lets players take damage over time from darkness if they are outside base?

Guys whining about traders, bikes, underground bases, did you try just play without it? Or maybe you got strong addiction and can't stop use it?

[Viktoriusiii]

Third option is run and fight all horde night without any base, and with little skill it become very easy and fun legit way to survive, even max difficulty with increased spawns. Only need alcohol, few meds and ammo. So what now? Lets players take damage over time from darkness if they are outside base?

Guys whining about traders, bikes, underground bases, did you try just play without it? Or maybe you got strong addiction and can't stop use it?

 

Difference is: try that with the ne ai.

If you can manage: good for u. But the risk is infinatly hogher then drivibg away.

 

Yes we did play without it. But its just not as fun as trying to find a way to survive.

 

I will always remember my first few hordenights, because i didnt know any exploits.

Survival was the nr 1 concern. And it was the most fun i had in the game.

 

If i have to selflimit myself for a challenge it becomes boring real quick.

 

 

I wonder if you guys can hear yourself.

 

ARK: giga(first release) is fine! If you have a problem with a creature beeing 100x stronger then any other, just dont tame it.

Skyrim:potion scaling

Witcher: endless cowhide

 

Who argues like that? -_-

[ColdGate]

Difference is: try that with the ne ai.

If you can manage: good for u. But the risk is infinatly hogher then drivibg away.

 

Yes we did play without it. But its just not as fun as trying to find a way to survive.

 

I will always remember my first few hordenights, because i didnt know any exploits.

Survival was the nr 1 concern. And it was the most fun i had in the game.

 

If i have to selflimit myself for a challenge it becomes boring real quick.

 

 

I wonder if you guys can hear yourself.

 

ARK: giga(first release) is fine! If you have a problem with a creature beeing 100x stronger then any other, just dont tame it.

Skyrim:potion scaling

Witcher: endless cowhide

 

Who argues like that? -_-

Ok, then I do not see any problems with minibikes, or other abuses, more choices = more fun. Furthermore they look balanced - no fight is no risk, but no loot.

Here, on this forum less then 1% of 7DTD players, but they skilled, looking for challenges and difficulty. But rest 99% may have another opinions, they asking not about disabling minibikes, but about disabling Horde Nights!

[DEADication]

And he's back...from outer space.

 

In 4 years of playing I have made one mini-bike.

Another player got the parts together and gave them to me as a gift.

So putting it together and trying it out was the polite thing to do.

Haven't used one since.

 

I will play the game my way, and I really don't give a rats arse how someone else plays it.

 

So ride, drive, run, hide, log off, man the walls or take em on head on, I don't care.

 

I'll just role play my own reality......suspension of disbelief is critical.

[Viktoriusiii]

Roleplaying is nice and all. But i can also roleplay in ET(1982) that doent mean its a good game.

 

But you know what? I'll leave this discussion. There is nothing to gain from it.

You repeat the “just roleplay“ thing so much its insane. YOU CAN STILL DO THAT AFTER THEY FIX THE EXPLOITS!!!

 

 

 

The only hope that I have is, that Roland shares my views and therefor maybe TFPs do too.

[DEADication]

Roleplaying is nice and all. But i can also roleplay in ET(1982) that doent mean its a good game.

 

But you know what? I'll leave this discussion. There is nothing to gain from it.

You repeat the “just roleplay“ thing so much its insane. YOU CAN STILL DO THAT AFTER THEY FIX THE EXPLOITS!!!

 

 

 

The only hope that I have is, that Roland shares my views and therefor maybe TFPs do too.

 

Don't get upset about it.

It's a game....a fantasy construct.

A game where I have run around with thousands of tons of concrete in my backpack.

A fantasy construct where you have to enable suspension of disbelief for it to work.

As the player, you are an inherent developer of that construct, as much as TFP is.

 

I have always played SP dead is dead, 1 life only, last human alive.

Always sort of felt multiple lives was a bit of an 'exploit' regarding my fantasy.

And of course Traders are an absolute no no.

I have never needed a game option to enforce it.

I did it, and it wasn't hard to do.

[RestInPieces]

any problems with minibikes, or other abuses, more choices = more fun.

 

So, are only abusive as you say, choices fun, and meaningful weighted choices, where players must actually think before making a choice are not? Cool statistics there btw.

 

I will play the game my way, and I really don't give a rats arse how someone else plays it.

I'll just role play my own reality......suspension of disbelief is critical.

 

Of course none really cares about how others play. Sorry, but it is naive and egocentric at best, to think so - and if they really did, they would also complain about other people playing on different difficulty options, different modes etc - obviously none complains about that so I urge you to employ your common sense and think why that doesn't happen.

 

So personally, if I wanted to roleplay using imaginary game mechanics, I'd get a piece of paper, call some friends and play DnD. Plenty of suspension of disbelief there. And if I wanted to roleplay in 7DTD there's always creative mode for that (much more freedom there for pure RP).

 

What I personally want to enjoy in this game though, is that survival/TD/RPG/sandbox combination it was advertized for, and combination means, like, combining you know, blending, all these elements together, not skipping some of them on the way. And in the spirit of survival/TD specifically, I want the game to present me with meaningful choices having incentives/consequences. It may be hard to fathom, but that's what a lot of people enjoy and it's irrelevant to difficulty (there are options for that already) and it can't happen if these meaningful choices aren't there.