Developer Discussions: Alpha 17

[Crater Creator]

That is why I think that granite should not transfer sideways SI and not get sideways SI (i.e. granite would always fall if nothing is below it), so a staircase design is not possible. EDIT: Correction, it is possible, but you need to put stone or concrete ledges under and between the granite.

 

If I understand you correctly, then the granite couldn't line the ceilings of tunnels and caverns like Jackelmyer wants. There is air under the granite, so the granite would fall immediately before the player did anything.

[Jackelmyer]

Like Jacklemyer, I don’t believe that the game is constantly checking SI. The proof of that are unstable prefabs that are still in the game and they stand just fine until you remove something or add something or walk on them depending on whatever action causes the game at that moment to check SI and then the whole building crumbles.

 

Really the only question is whether the game checks SI from the point of action down to bedrock or from bedrock up to the point of action.

 

I'm pretty sure it checks until near by block stability is all lower than the block being checked. Then zips to bedrock to be sure that the column is fully supported. Haven't seen the code. But by video tutorials that demo everything except subterranean air pockets and just how things seem to behave in game.

 

What I find to be the most vodoo is the load sharing that's done by two unsupported blocks. But I think that's a simple matter of, if we're both unsupported, we split the weight of a block that's attached to us both.

 

Referring to scenarios like...

 

 

Ssssss

Sssss

Ssss

Sss

Ss

S

 

S = Supported to bedrock

s = Unsupported

 

Where the top platform should only be able to hold 4 wood frames out, but because the Support underneath, it can hold 5 or 6 I think. But more than the 4 wood frames with nothing but air under them.

[Roland]

It’s evolved but basically my thought was that it would basically be a reinforced concrete block that could be activated to be a foundation block. It would have the same properties as any other reinforced concrete block in terms of weight and horizontal glue. The changes would be as follows:

 

1) As a foundation block it would act as an endpoint for SI calculation for construction done above it. (assuming top down checks)

2) A second foundation block could not be activated anywhere above or below one already in existence.

 

The only real exploit is that you could support a huge base on an unrealistic stilt but that would be pretty risky to do. The foundation blocks themselves would still be subject to SI calculated down to bedrock below them so they would collapse if not supported adequately or if any supports holding them up were destroyed.

[Aldranon]

Like Jacklemyer, I don’t believe that the game is constantly checking SI. The proof of that are unstable prefabs that are still in the game and they stand just fine until you remove something or add something or walk on them depending on whatever action causes the game at that moment to check SI and then the whole building crumbles.

 

Really the only question is whether the game checks SI from the point of action down to bedrock or from bedrock up to the point of action.

 

Maybe in the "Subways, Sewers & Skyscapers" DLC @$9.95, they will increase the SI of reinforced concrete to a realistic level. Reinforced concrete was designed to give concrete a torsion strength to complement its amazing compression strength. Americans recently have made a concrete (HPC + UHPC) that is UNBELIVABLY strong, so if MM said 7D2D is near future then using 10 meters of that stuff will hold up anything within the games scope.

 

No need for magic, unless American ingenuity is magic.

[Crater Creator]

This digging zombie idea seems floored before it is given any chance sorry.

 

There are multiple ideas and we're all still actively evaluating them, with page after page of ongoing analysis. Why so quick to draw conclusions?

 

But i myself don't want tunnels everywhere cause of a digging zombie. Defending against such digging as won't be an issue as 2 steps take place. TFP always puts in counter actions to be able to defend.

 

The existence of an effective counter action doesn't mean an attack presents no issue. Consider rock-paper-scissors: every attack has a counter, but the attacks are still an issue for the defense, because no single defense can counter every attack. It's my hope that 7DtD will eventually have enough kinds of attacks that there can be threats to the player in all scenarios. E.g., your stilt base is safe from diggers but not from fliers, your underground base is safe from fliers but not from diggers, etc.

 

2. Gamers will again always be able to find ways to defend from such diggging as.

 

This is not the issue! Besides which, it's wrong. The developers set the rules of their universe. Of course they can come up with a rule set that has no defense. They can add lightning strikes that kill you no matter what. But they won't, because this is not the goal.

 

As for the terrain being replaced by a digging z lol that is absurd to say the least because that be like it is magical.

 

Actually it's way, way less magical than all that terrain being stuffed in your backpack. The latter brand of magic is so legendary, we have a name for it: hammerspace.

 

And if I am in my base and magically appears a digging z that be as bad as teleporting as everyone was complaining about. And then there is no sign of how it got there cause the holes been covered you then need to refer to the above and repeat in a loop.

 

You wouldn't see the digging zombie appear. It would just skip over the boring and performance-hurting part of slowly chewing through many blocks of terrain, and get to the interesting and detectable part where it's about to break in. When done correctly, you won't be able to tell the difference.

[Crater Creator]

Perlin caves shouldn't be a problem. Just give us a surveyors camera thing lol. If your gonna build a base or lol or prefab you need to survelleince the area you intend to build to check for so weaknesses caves etc. No need for this foundation stuff.

 

All this talk about SI notwithstanding, I agree with this. The game now includes advanced sensor equipment like motion sensors, pressure sensors, and night vision goggles. Add a vibration sensor to detect digging zombies, and a... reverse stud finder (not the right term, but I don't know the technology) that beeps if you're standing over an air pocket, and both worries are addressed.

[wolfbain5]

I kinda want to see home/house POI's have a chance to include a Zombie dog in their spawn. So sure, sleepers might be easy. But eeeevery now and then, the families guard dog stuck with them to the end... Plus!

 

Already do. I have faced a few

[Crater Creator]

I don't like a big world granite slab. Where at -20 height, there's some granite layer a few blocks thick. You just narrow SI problems that way.

 

I'm still thinking there's potential to take the granite/foundation idea, and generalize it to all SI calculations, instead of applying it to a special type of block. Pardon my repost:

 

Hmm... I think you may have hit on something pretty profound here.

 

Conceptually, a big hole right under a base is going to cause problems, but the same sized hole a kilometer deeper isn't as big of a deal. So I'm wondering if, instead of a new type of block with different properties, SI could pay progressively less attention to blocks the farther below they are from the block in question. I'm still thinking about the math, but the first spitball would be, like, the SI calculation for block (x,y,z) terminates down at block (x,y,z-20) instead of down at block (x,y,[bedrock]). If you get down to (x,y,z-20) and SI still holds up, that's good enough. It's similar to your granite & foundation ideas, but applied as a relative offset each time SI is calculated instead of at absolute values where special blocks exist.

 

I'm not defining this very rigorously, and someone will probably point out it again allows floating castles, but I think there's something here...

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

I see what you are saying and my only thought is how good of an exploit is that really? Lets say that a large enough area could be attached to the side of a cliff to be useful as a safe base. There is still the weak point of contact that only takes a few hits and the whole thing comes down. People build stilt bases now that sometime in the future will be quite risky to rely upon.

 

Do you promise?

[Jackelmyer]

Already do. I have faced a few

 

The groups available for sleeper volumes in A16 don't have a group like I'm referring to. If you ran into a dog, it's because of city spawn mechanics, biome spawn mechanics, or a wandering dog horde.

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

It’s evolved but basically my thought was that it would basically be a reinforced concrete block that could be activated to be a foundation block. It would have the same properties as any other reinforced concrete block in terms of weight and horizontal glue. The changes would be as follows:

 

1) As a foundation block it would act as an endpoint for SI calculation for construction done above it. (assuming top down checks)

2) A second foundation block could not be activated anywhere above or below one already in existence.

 

The only real exploit is that you could support a huge base on an unrealistic stilt but that would be pretty risky to do. The foundation blocks themselves would still be subject to SI calculated down to bedrock below them so they would collapse if not supported adequately or if any supports holding them up were destroyed.

 

Thanks Roland. Gotta sleep on this SI bit. Think I've about hit my SI problem solving limit.

[Crater Creator]

I believe the way people are explaining it is yes you can dig care free under your base with the foundation blocks as long as you don't undermine the dirt blocks directly underneath and to the sides (the ones touching the foundation blocks).

 

So you could in theory go 2 dirt blocks lower than the foundation and excavate a football field size cavern if you wish.

 

Well, the dirt under your foundation is subject to SI, too. And dirt has a low SI of 2. So you couldn't make a very big foundation at all if you're relying on just a layer of dirt to hold it up.

[Crater Creator]

yeah...No! try that underwater and what do you get .. falling blocks. it would be your same example.

 

Still think Roland's idea has more merit. just because it would also add an extra element to the building aspect.

 

I don't see your point. Water blocks don't "reset SI of whatever's above it." They have different properties. What step in my thought experiment would be the problem, and why?

[Crater Creator]

...that's a pretty damn prone base.

 

Currently, there are few dangers/considerations when making a stilt base, but at least:

1. You have to place enough pillars close enough together to support the base.
   
2. When Hunted, you have to take care not to stand directly above any pillars, or the zombies will attack them.
   

 

The base design I mentioned circumvents both these requirements. So while this base looks extremely precarious to a human, it's actually safer than current stilt bases, at least until there's something that specifically goes after support pillars. And if that something relies on current SI, a base like this could be effectively invulnerable in PvE.

 

Though. To be fair. In game play perspectives... It'd end up a late stages base build. You'd have to go digging for your cavern to build on. That's a crap load of slow searching unless RNG is on your side. And in my mind, the entire underworld isn't chalked full of caves and caverns. Making it that much more challenging to find such a site to build on.

 

I thought you wanted all tunnels and caverns to be lined with granite. All tunnels and caverns connect to a mouth at the surface somewhere, don't they? That means you don't have to do any digging. Find cave entrances by studying the map and explore them, taking notes from the inside of how the walls and ceiling are shaped.

[Matt 1977]

Is there any plans on having something different to do with head gear in game?

 

For most players im assuming once a mining helmet is found its welded onto there skull and never leaves like i do.

 

I love the look of military helmets etc but no light.

 

Ive been searching the forum but no joy in finding any chatter ( haven't been at it long though )

[Royal Deluxe]

All tunnels and caverns connect to a mouth at the surface somewhere, don't they?

 

This maybe only a admin can answer who fly very often with no Collision around ^^

 

and i can allready see the Prefabs with deep Basements stucking inside such caves.

Because if we want caves to make underworld interesting we would need really many of them

For this case i would like a Socket until Baserock ability for Prefabs. Means when placed the lowest layer of the prefab is copyed until it touches Baserock

[stallionsden]

There are multiple ideas and we're all still actively evaluating them, with page after page of ongoing analysis. Why so quick to draw conclusions?

 

 

 

The existence of an effective counter action doesn't mean an attack presents no issue. Consider rock-paper-scissors: every attack has a counter, but the attacks are still an issue for the defense, because no single defense can counter every attack. It's my hope that 7DtD will eventually have enough kinds of attacks that there can be threats to the player in all scenarios. E.g., your stilt base is safe from diggers but not from fliers, your underground base is safe from fliers but not from diggers, etc.

 

 

 

This is not the issue! Besides which, it's wrong. The developers set the rules of their universe. Of course they can come up with a rule set that has no defense. They can add lightning strikes that kill you no matter what. But they won't, because this is not the goal.

 

 

 

Actually it's way, way less magical than all that terrain being stuffed in your backpack. The latter brand of magic is so legendary, we have a name for it: hammerspace.

 

 

 

You wouldn't see the digging zombie appear. It would just skip over the boring and performance-hurting part of slowly chewing through many blocks of terrain, and get to the interesting and detectable part where it's about to break in. When done correctly, you won't be able to tell the difference.

 

If there is no way of counter acting a threat the game would be completely dull and a killer. As for lightning strikes stay inside lol. If it goes thru the prefab the game is flawed.

 

Lol don't go comparing magical appearing zs to backpack lol. Now for example make a mod where you can not carry anything but "realistic objects" maybe 1 block at a time (in a game that has building in it) see how many ppl play it. Now compare that to how many ppl play with how it is currently.

 

Now make a game that has magical appearing zs with no possible way of it being there other then magical appearance to a game that shows the path a z takes etc and you see it get to where it gets to and now compare which game has the more players...

 

Of it skipped the boring bits how did the hole it dug disappear. Can I borrow it I need some stuff dug up......

[Crater Creator]

I think what Tin is saying is that the Air blocks don't actually provide support themselves. They only reset the block above. So effectively the block above is unsupported. But any block above that is sitting on a supported block.

 

S

S

s

A

A

S

S

B

 

S - Supported Stone

s - Unsupported Stone

A - Air

B - bedrock

 

The unsupported stone block still needs to be stuck to something that is supported in this example.

 

Okay, so the air block makes the capital S a supported block, right?

 

...I build my floating base one block higher, resting on the S instead of the s.

[Prisma501]

Is there any plans on having something different to do with head gear in game?

 

For most players im assuming once a mining helmet is found its welded onto there skull and never leaves like i do.

 

I love the look of military helmets etc but no light.

 

Ive been searching the forum but no joy in finding any chatter ( haven't been at it long though )

 

Not meaning anything but few months back madmole has said he would like to see more modular approach on headgear. Only having a choice of picking light or being protected was something that he was not fond about.

 

I too am hoping of being able to assembling a flashlight to more headprotective items.

 

Cheers

[Royal Deluxe]

Madmole said he "WISH" Eyewear like the Nightvision as Lamp

[Crater Creator]

Most people put up a wall above ground....they hit your wall and start digging down...within their radius of detection they sense you or a player placed block(shaft)...they turn and horizontally head towards that direction/block(s).

 

The vertical digging zombies can do that (though I imagined they'd get over you and then dig down, not dig down and then over). But the "underground spawning zombies" are already underground, so they don't need a vertical shaft. If you're underground, they can ignore what's above ground and come after you horizontally.

[stallionsden]

Not meaning anything but few months back madmole has said he would like to see more modular approach on headgear. Only having a choice of picking light or being protected was something that he was not fond about.

 

I too am hoping of being able to assembling a flashlight to more headprotective items.

 

Cheers

 

I can tell you whether in game or in real life. If I came across a mining helmet with a light and a military helmet with no light. The mining helmet offers for example 20 defense. Yet the military helmet offers 50 but no light. I be ripping the light from the dang mining helmet and duct taping the light onto the military helmet lol.

[Matt 1977]

Not meaning anything but few months back madmole has said he would like to see more modular approach on headgear. Only having a choice of picking light or being protected was something that he was not fond about.

 

I too am hoping of being able to assembling a flashlight to more headprotective items.

 

Cheers

 

Oh ok thanks for the info

[Royal Deluxe]

The question is still, how defend enemys that attack your base in deep rock from outside (through stone).

DO the player really need to wait until they broke 1-4 Layers of steel, feel anoyed because of this for a longer time and cant leave his base because it sounds like they will break the Forge room and/or Store room ?

 

Finally this would only mean that all player would be forced to build like me. And this is a really hard task to tame the SI (I really believe for most player a to hard task)

[Crater Creator]

Really the only question is whether the game checks SI from the point of action down to bedrock or from bedrock up to the point of action.

 

I think it would have to be from the point of action down to bedrock. It's like (or may literally be) a tree structure. Each bedrock block is the root of its own tree, its children are the block(s) that block is directly supporting above it, the grandchildren are the block(s) supported by the children, on and on to the furthest extent. Child to root is checking one tree, but if it went from root to child, you'd have to check every tree.

[Jackelmyer]

Currently, there are few dangers/considerations when making a stilt base, but at least:

1. You have to place enough pillars close enough together to support the base.
   
2. When Hunted, you have to take care not to stand directly above any pillars, or the zombies will attack them.
   

 

The base design I mentioned circumvents both these requirements. So while this base looks extremely precarious to a human, it's actually safer than current stilt bases, at least until there's something that specifically goes after support pillars. And if that something relies on current SI, a base like this could be effectively invulnerable in PvE.

 

I would think AI, would look for blocks supporting a player block by following blocks upward to see if a player block is connected to the chain. As opposed to "Is this a Supported block.". But I think these points go back to something Roland said, and that we probably shouldn't guess at what AI will be like.

 

And what you're describing can be done now. Center supported wall, 15 metal blocks out from each side of a top block that us also metal.

 

Narrower, yeah, but the same thing that can be done today. Your example at best, I think, would only allow for that platform to be 4-6 extra blocks wide on either side of the supporting center wall with the granite concept.

 

So it's really not much different.

 

I thought you wanted all tunnels and caverns to be lined with granite. All tunnels and caverns connect to a mouth at the surface somewhere, don't they? That means you don't have to do any digging. Find cave entrances by studying the map and explore them, taking notes from the inside of how the walls and ceiling are shaped.

 

Not always an opening. Some caverns and cave systems exists without opening. Created by ground water erosion.

 

You could go through all that effort. But blah. And at least that's more effort than required for today's same kind of base build.

 

And on the bright side, you only get to build this type of base where the world genned the granite. Which may not be flush up against multiple biome's for simplest resource gain access.

[Crater Creator]

It’s evolved but basically my thought was that it would basically be a reinforced concrete block that could be activated to be a foundation block. It would have the same properties as any other reinforced concrete block in terms of weight and horizontal glue. The changes would be as follows:

 

1) As a foundation block it would act as an endpoint for SI calculation for construction done above it. (assuming top down checks)

2) A second foundation block could not be activated anywhere above or below one already in existence.

 

The only real exploit is that you could support a huge base on an unrealistic stilt but that would be pretty risky to do. The foundation blocks themselves would still be subject to SI calculated down to bedrock below them so they would collapse if not supported adequately or if any supports holding them up were destroyed.

 

It occurs to me you still wouldn't have to keep your foundation contiguous under these rules. You could stagger the foundation blocks, placing a few of them in strategic positions on each floor such that they never overlap vertically. I'm not sure, but it may be possible to combine the rules of 'regular' SI and foundation blocks like this to create a structure that supports a much higher load than you could otherwise.