Long-range rifles imbalance

[Misamor]

Here's the thing: I have a level 2 (tier 2) pistol and a level 2 tier 2 rifle. I have 1 point of skill in each.
My pistol deals 38.4 damage.

My rifle deals 61.3 damage.

I can shoot 5 bullets with my pistol by the time I reload my single shot rifle.

So... What's the point of the rifle, exactly? What's the point of taking this rifle, loading a single bullet into the chamber, expectedly waiting for that aim reticle to contract, only to deal barely 1.5 times the damage you'd deal with a pistol? And don't tell me it's the range. In this game, where looting is a core game mechanic, 95% of your zombie encounters will happen inside buildings at 10 blocks away, tops.

The rifle is ridiculously useless as it is, pls fix.

 

Edited August 13 by Misamor (see edit history)

[Suxar]

It's in the distance. The rifle is good for hunting animals. It is good to clear buildings either with a machine gun or a shotgun.

[Misamor]

6 minutes ago, Suxar said:

It's in the distance. The rifle is good for hunting animals. It is good to clear buildings either with a machine gun or a shotgun.

 

If rifles were put into the game solely with animals in mind, I would be surprised. It's not a hunting game, but a zombie game lol. So again, what's the point of investing skill points and possibly materials into using rifles when I'm going to use shotguns to kill zombies anyway?

[Suxar]

If you are going to use a shotgun, then you will invest in the strength stat and the shotgun skill.
I use the rifle either for hunting or for shooting screamers on the approach to my base. The rest of the time it lies in the box. If I invest points, it’s not before level 150.

[Misamor]

Which again supports my point. All weapons should be valid and allow a different playstyle, the same way that all close-combat weapons (fists, sledgehammers...) are valid and balanced between each other. If you feel you have to wait 150 levels before a weapon is finally worth investing into: that weapon is probably unbalanced.

[Suxar]

Fists and sledgehammers are very different. With fists there are much less problems with stamina at the beginning of the game. With a sledgehammer you have to retreat and rest. Each weapon has its pros and cons. In principle, it should not be balanced because each is intended for its own playing style. With a rifle you don’t have to get into close combat, and with a shotgun you don’t have to try to shoot into the distance.
If a weapon doesn't suit your playstyle, just don't use it.

13 minutes ago, Misamor said:

If you feel you have to wait 150 levels

The question is not waiting. To this level I will upgrade all the skills I need. Extra points will appear and I will start investing them in something that may be useful to me someday.

[avalonnn]

If your horde night setup paths zombies up a ladder and across a pole, I think you'll use rifle and MG for tough moments, and pistol for easier moments, with shotgun as a backup. But I play on Adventurer. 

[theFlu]

The single shot rifles are rather slow, but from lever action onwards, they're all right. They do work from longer distances, but their power is basically in massive headshots; you'll usually want to be aiming even at close ranges. With snipers, they become the "controlled fire" -version of an assault rifle.

 

Horde bases will play different, you'll want to exploit the multi-target penetration to the max...

[RipClaw]

In the late game, the sniper rifle is pretty OP. I once had a sniper horde base with a long, straight path and electric fences running across. Combined with the Penetrator perk, it was one of the most ammo efficient bases I ever had. Especially when dealing with Demolisher Zombies.

Edited August 13 by RipClaw (see edit history)

[asmosnuts]

     Doesnt the lever action rifle offer a faster fire rate? A single bullet system will always be slow and there are perks to speed things up. Unless youre hunting or sniping a rifle isnt really optimal anyway, seems a bit redundant and most leave single shooters behind pretty quickly.

[Treb]

As other have said, rifle starts slow but end up pretty good at the end.

 

Rifle tier 0 and 1 are bad, 2 is good and 3 is great.

 

Shotgun tier 0 is bad, tier 1 is ok, tier 2 is good and tier 3 is great.

 

MG all tiers are good to great but eat through ammo extremely fast.

 

Pistol tier 0 is bad, tier 1 starts good but fall off quick. Magnum is good, vulture and mp5 are great.

[8_Hussars]

2 hours ago, Misamor said:

Here's the thing: I have a level 2 (tier 2) pistol and a level 2 tier 2 rifle. I have 1 point of skill in each.
My pistol deals 38.4 damage.

My rifle deals 61.3 damage.

I can shoot 5 bullets with my pistol by the time I reload my single shot rifle.

So... What's the point of the rifle, exactly? What's the point of taking this rifle, loading a single bullet into the chamber, expectedly waiting for that aim reticle to contract, only to deal barely 1.5 times the damage you'd deal with a pistol? And don't tell me it's the range. In this game, where looting is a core game mechanic, 95% of your zombie encounters will happen inside buildings at 10 blocks away, tops.

The rifle is ridiculously useless as it is, pls fix.

 

Essentially the weapons are balanced for different purposes and play styles.  One is a powerful long range weapon and coupled with its +50 head shot damage modifier can one tap many zombies encountered at the progression level it appears at.  Gain a sniper perch or some height and pick them off one by one.

One is a short range handgun.  It generally takes two to three head shots to kill zombies encountered at the progression level it appears at.

At this progression level melee is still very viable.  Certainly if a player is choosing a Hunting Rifle over melee in close combat or for oh @%$# moments in close quarters combat, the player will have a bad time.  A player who cant hit head shots will have a bad time regardless... 

[Riamus]

Not all weapons have to be equally viable in every situation.  They are different for a reason... They offer options based on how you play or what situation you are in.  I won't use slow guns, including lever action rifles, because I don't like how slow they are, but that applies to all of the ones that are slow.  I'll mostly use rifles, especially the sniper rifle, during horde night, but I also stick to melee almost all of the time except when I need fast damage.  And if I need fast damage, I need something that can fire a lot of shots quickly.  If you don't like rifles, just use a different gun.

[d3.nephalem]

I got your point Misamor and i wont't tell you to use rifle on animals, horde night or "special situations". Fun fact: the best "rifle" in game is M60 machine gun. Good M60 with drum magazine, silencer, maxed Fortitude and you can blow zombies heads all nigth long. One click = one kill. In dangerous situations just hold mouse button :)

[Adam the Waster]

6 hours ago, Suxar said:

It's in the distance. The rifle is good for hunting animals. It is good to clear buildings either with a machine gun or a shotgun.

My lever action would like some words! With the bonus headshot damage I can drop a feral weight in like 2 shots and a feral biker in 3. 

 

I can't wait till I get the sniper 

But the hunting rifle should hold 3 rounds while the lever action should get a tube extender to increase ammo 

BTW my lever action is level 1 I just got my curable 

[Misamor]

Those who tell me "it's a different playstyle" are all missing the point. CQC weapons are balanced between each other: you're free to use the one closer to your playstyle because NO ONE is objectively better than the other. Sledgehammers are not better than fists even though their damage output is way bigger, because to compensate for their huge damage, they are way slower than fists, making their DPS basically equal at equivalent level/tier. This is not the case with the rifle, because its damage output is way too little to compensate for its slow rate of fire. Additionally, CQC weapons and most firearms allow you do deal with most of the game's challenges. With only a pistol for example: you can hunt, you can easily clear out a building... 

[Krougal]

2 hours ago, Riamus said:

Not all weapons have to be equally viable in every situation.  They are different for a reason... They offer options based on how you play or what situation you are in.  I won't use slow guns, including lever action rifles, because I don't like how slow they are, but that applies to all of the ones that are slow.  I'll mostly use rifles, especially the sniper rifle, during horde night, but I also stick to melee almost all of the time except when I need fast damage.  And if I need fast damage, I need something that can fire a lot of shots quickly.  If you don't like rifles, just use a different gun.

OP has a point though, if you want to go down the perception tree, the rifle and spear are your weapons. They forced this when they decided to make the perk lines as they are.

 

The game is just not designed around long range engagements or stealth. They are options sure, but they will never be optimal. This is coming from a guy who prefers both of those. Take a game like FO4, I could pick off all the mobs in town from a rooftop with my silenced 50 cal without ever being seen. Late game it was just 1 shot, 1 kill with the gauss rifle, even at close range.

 

Now if we had a more robust weapons modding system (like FO4) we could tailor the rifle to be more viable in different situations, like some people used a short stock rifle optimized for close range and low AP cost to take advantage of their rifleman skill and VATs for up close and personal fighting.

 

I'll sit up on an outside ledge on Dishong Tower and pop zeds on the ground with 8x sniper for fun, but it isn't exactly a productive use of time or ammo.

5 minutes ago, Misamor said:

Those who tell me "it's a different playstyle" are all missing the point. CQC weapons are balanced between each other: you're free to use the one closer to your playstyle because NO ONE is objectively better than the other. Sledgehammers are not better than fists even though their damage output is way bigger, because to compensate for their huge damage, they are way slower than fists, making their DPS basically equal at equivalent level/tier. This is not the case with the rifle, because its damage output is way too little to compensate for its slow rate of fire. Additionally, CQC weapons and most firearms allow you do deal with most of the game's challenges. With only a pistol for example: you can hunt, you can easily clear out a building... 

I get it. There really isn't an easy solution other than making the situations where it is the best weapon more frequent, but there really is no way to do that in 7DTD. Then people would complain the shotgun sucks because its range is too short.

 

I do agree about the pistol though. Silenced pistol with 2x scope and I can clear most any POI and get dinner.

Edited August 13 by Krougal (see edit history)

[8_Hussars]

6 minutes ago, Misamor said:

Those who tell me "it's a different playstyle" are all missing the point. CQC weapons are balanced between each other: you're free to use the one closer to your playstyle because NO ONE is objectively better than the other. Sledgehammers are not better than fists even though their damage output is way bigger, because to compensate for their huge damage, they are way slower than fists, making their DPS basically equal at equivalent level/tier.

For comparison the Pistol DPS is 111 and the rifle DPS is 116...

[Riamus]

26 minutes ago, Krougal said:

OP has a point though, if you want to go down the perception tree, the rifle and spear are your weapons. They forced this when they decided to make the perk lines as they are.

 

The game is just not designed around long range engagements or stealth. They are options sure, but they will never be optimal. This is coming from a guy who prefers both of those. Take a game like FO4, I could pick off all the mobs in town from a rooftop with my silenced 50 cal without ever being seen. Late game it was just 1 shot, 1 kill with the gauss rifle, even at close range.

 

Now if we had a more robust weapons modding system (like FO4) we could tailor the rifle to be more viable in different situations, like some people used a short stock rifle optimized for close range and low AP cost to take advantage of their rifleman skill and VATs for up close and personal fighting.

 

I'll sit up on an outside ledge on Dishong Tower and pop zeds on the ground with 8x sniper for fun, but it isn't exactly a productive use of time or ammo.

I get it. There really isn't an easy solution other than making the situations where it is the best weapon more frequent, but there really is no way to do that in 7DTD. Then people would complain the shotgun sucks because its range is too short.

 

I do agree about the pistol though. Silenced pistol with 2x scope and I can clear most any POI and get dinner.

I use spears as my main weapon and sniper for horde night and like that they are in the same tree.  And I see no reason why people can't use weapons from multiple trees if they want to.  They still work very well even without perks and you can really max all perks if you want to.  If the combination of weapons in perception doesn't suit someone, there are other trees if you really want to specialize in a single tree. 

 

Each weapon series should feel unique.  And unique means they won't all work exactly the same.  Rifles definitely don't need to do more damage than they already do.  They are for distance shots and there are enough of those available that you can use it if you want even in a quest, though it would be a secondary weapon used to initiate fights by taking out one or two of the strongest zombies right away.  Is it great for questing?  Of course not.  Is it useful situationally? Absolutely.

 

This game really isn't designed to limit yourself to a single tree like people want to do.  Branch out and enjoy the benefits.

[Krougal]

53 minutes ago, Riamus said:

I use spears as my main weapon and sniper for horde night and like that they are in the same tree.  And I see no reason why people can't use weapons from multiple trees if they want to.  They still work very well even without perks and you can really max all perks if you want to.  If the combination of weapons in perception doesn't suit someone, there are other trees if you really want to specialize in a single tree. 

 

Each weapon series should feel unique.  And unique means they won't all work exactly the same.  Rifles definitely don't need to do more damage than they already do.  They are for distance shots and there are enough of those available that you can use it if you want even in a quest, though it would be a secondary weapon used to initiate fights by taking out one or two of the strongest zombies right away.  Is it great for questing?  Of course not.  Is it useful situationally? Absolutely.

 

This game really isn't designed to limit yourself to a single tree like people want to do.  Branch out and enjoy the benefits.

Sure, at level 150 it doesn't matter what build you started with, they are all going to end up about the same.

Early game every perk counts and if you haven't specialized weapons by the time everything starts showing up radiated you are going to get clobbered, especially on harder difficulty. Of course you have a choice, but there are good choices and there are bad choices.

 

Now I may be a bit biased since I think a single 7.62mm or .44 in the head should kill anything and everything, but rifle is not my first choice in this game, and that is not for lack of giving it a chance.

[Riamus]

Sure, but no reason you can't do two trees.  Maybe one tree maxes the weapon quickly and the second takes longer, but if you max your main weapon first, it isn't exactly a bad choice to split up your perks.

 

Few people would choose a rifle as their main weapon in this game, but nothing wrong with it as a secondary weapon or horde weapon.  But people do have choices based on the types of weapons they want to use.  The rifle is powerful for single shots.  It really doesn't need more power by making it shoot faster, have a higher ammo capacity or increased damage directly.

[Suxar]

13 hours ago, Adam the Waster said:

My lever action would like some words! With the bonus headshot damage I can drop a feral weight in like 2 shots and a feral biker in 3. 

 

You and I have different playing styles. I go hunting with a rifle only because with a machine gun I don’t always get a whole corpse, and I don’t want to lose meat and bones.
I usually work out either through strength or endurance. And the first thing I do is maximize the weapons that are there. And this is either a shotgun and a club or brass knuckles and a machine gun.
A rifle is certainly a good weapon, but if you upgrade your perception. But as a rule, I don’t pump it at first.

[seagas]

While I generally go heavy into intellect tree, stun baton, and Robotic turrets, I use multiple weapons from from other trees. Spears early on, bow/crossbow for stealth kills, machine gun and pistols. With the screamer so plentiful, I use a silencer on pistols and SMGs to lower the heat level. I use rifles for long shots when hunting and Demos. I put maybe one point in the others weapons and more after I max out Intellect. I usually buy my other weapons from traders, reward or loot. As to the OP I have a tier four lever action rifle with scope using armor piercing rounds and take out Demos with four or five shots, fewer if I can manage  head shots.

[Krougal]

18 minutes ago, seagas said:

While I generally go heavy into intellect tree, stun baton, and Robotic turrets, I use multiple weapons from from other trees. Spears early on, bow/crossbow for stealth kills, machine gun and pistols. With the screamer so plentiful, I use a silencer on pistols and SMGs to lower the heat level. I use rifles for long shots when hunting and Demos. I put maybe one point in the others weapons and more after I max out Intellect. I usually buy my other weapons from traders, reward or loot. As to the OP I have a tier four lever action rifle with scope using armor piercing rounds and take out Demos with four or five shots, fewer if I can manage  head shots.

I do the same usually, but then our primary weapon is 2 robotic turrets, baton is secondary, everything else is for S&G.

I have died exactly twice in my current game, and both times because I was too lazy to deploy turrets (well, first time I actually forgot them at home) and got overrun by radioactive mutants and wights.

[bdubyah]

On 8/13/2024 at 7:07 AM, Misamor said:

Here's the thing: I have a level 2 (tier 2) pistol and a level 2 tier 2 rifle. I have 1 point of skill in each.
My pistol deals 38.4 damage.

My rifle deals 61.3 damage.

I can shoot 5 bullets with my pistol by the time I reload my single shot rifle.

So... What's the point of the rifle, exactly? What's the point of taking this rifle, loading a single bullet into the chamber, expectedly waiting for that aim reticle to contract, only to deal barely 1.5 times the damage you'd deal with a pistol? And don't tell me it's the range. In this game, where looting is a core game mechanic, 95% of your zombie encounters will happen inside buildings at 10 blocks away, tops.

The rifle is ridiculously useless as it is, pls fix.

 

Do you have any suggestions on how they should improve it? 61.3 damage out of a T0 weapon is pretty good, no? How much more damage should it do? If anything, I'd say it and the pipe shotgun should get just slightly faster reloads. Maybe like 15% faster tops.