What is the point of the Abrasion injury?

[Old Crow]

I know Abrasions lower your max HP until healed but.. it's literally just a "booboo." Not even a remotely seriously injury. Seems silly to include it with things like breaks, sprains, bleeding, and infections.

 

"You are bleeding."
"You are infected."
"Your arm is broken."
"You are tired."
"You have an owie."

 

I feel like Abrasions could just be removed and nothing would be lost from the game. Or maybe change the injury.

[meilodasreh]

I agree. Some of them are currently pointless.

DF does it right with the wellness system, where every injury permanently decreases your wellness, and you have to consume good food/drinks to raise it again.

Just the timer/countdown for the debuff and/or put on some healing makes especially the minor injuries like abrasion not worth a look.

 

...but hey, how about:

-chance for occasional splinter in your Finger when wood chopping (that's gonna hurt and slow you down for days really)

-chance for bumps and bruises when you crouch through 1m holes (100% chance if you do the x-ray-clip exploit when treasure-digging)

-chance for stepping into dog poo... (...ok that's definitely one for Joke Mod 😄 )

[binf_shinana]

治療のための薬品の出現率が高すぎることが問題の本質なので、デバフを強化してもあまり意味はないと感じるでしょう。

しかも、a21から宝箱などのストレージは、アイテム出現数を減らしても、100%のアイテムを保証しています。

砂漠のアロエの存在もあり、どうやっても包帯などは余るのです。

包括的に改変を行うmodを使うこと以外で対処することは難しい問題です

 

Since the essence of the problem is that the appearance rate of medicines for treatment is too high, you will feel that there is little point in strengthening debuffs.
Moreover, storage such as treasure chests from A21 guarantees 100% items even if the number of items appearing is reduced.
Thanks in part to the existence of desert aloe, no matter what you do, there will always be bandages left over.
It's a difficult problem to deal with other than using a mod.

[Maharin]

Maybe if abrasions made you more susceptible to infection and other maladies (more potent effect if untreated) as well as making you use slightly more food and water while they are active (less of an increase if treated)?

 

This is one area I will focus on with my mod once the game is released.  I'm going to be a busy man then. 

[meilodasreh]

one injury shouldn't make other injuries or other debuffs more likely, sounds too much of a snowball/avalanche effect thingy.

But the thing about burning through calories faster would work fine I guess.

Or just a slightly stronger impact on max health/stamina than now may also do the trick.

 

 

[Maharin]

11 minutes ago, meilodasreh said:

one injury shouldn't make other injuries or other debuffs more likely, sounds too much of a snowball/avalanche effect thingy.

 

Spend some time in a hospital or talking to doctors and nurses.  Avalanche is a good term for what can happen when maladies go untreated or are combined with other issues. Real life versus game fun will obviously have to come into play.  But interplay between debuffs is exactly what this game needs more of, in my opinion, to make it more survival-ish.

 

[BFT2020]

It's a minor debuff.  Not all debuffs have to have a major impact on the player.

[meilodasreh]

agreed. It is just a very sharp edge to hit,

between too minor (making it totally meaningless gameplay wise, just a lil icon on the screen with no real impact),

and too serious (there can only be that many serious debuffs).

 

So what about just leaving the minor ones out completely? I guess that was the initial point of this thread.

I wouldn't mind if abrasions were gone.

Bumps and bruises already are, and noone cares...ok they were never in, but still, does anybody miss them, for like...consistency? 🙂

[binf_shinana]

多くの問題は、その議論されるべき対象物の改造では改善できません。
私は7dtdでサバイバーが持つ最強の能力は「ライフの成長速度と最大値が高い」ことにあると感じています。
もしライフの成長速度と加算される最大値が半分になれば、重傷によるライフ最大値の減退に対する考え方はかなり変わるでしょう。

 

Many problems cannot be improved by modifying the object being discussed.
I feel that the strongest ability that survivors have in 7dtd is "high life growth speed and high maximum value."
If the maximum value added to the life growth rate were halved, the way we think about the reduction of maximum life value due to serious injuries would change considerably.

Edited October 3, 2023 by binf_shinana (see edit history)

[Callum123456789]

abrasions lower crit resist too treated and untreated they are just a pain in the ass i often ignore them its one of the main reasons i dont often use melee mid to late game

[Ramethzer0]

9 hours ago, meilodasreh said:

one injury shouldn't make other injuries or other debuffs more likely, sounds too much of a snowball/avalanche effect thingy.

But the thing about burning through calories faster would work fine I guess.

Or just a slightly stronger impact on max health/stamina than now may also do the trick.

 

 

 

Uhhh.. point of fact:  IRL if you get an infection it draws attention from your immune system and taxes it.  This is doubly true when an open untreated wound starts to become infected.  I've actually lost track of how many times in my life I've caught respiratory issues from my allergies when winter rolls around.

 

 

[meilodasreh]

and that‘s a very annoying thing right? So yes it should definitely become part of the game too, is it that what you‘re trying to say?

[Pernicious]

On 10/3/2023 at 3:24 PM, Old Crow said:

I know Abrasions lower your max HP until healed but.. it's literally just a "booboo." Not even a remotely seriously injury.

 

As someone who came off a motorcycle in just shorts and a T-shirt, I beg to differ.

 

Ever heard of road rash? And the fact that to clean it they use a wire brush? Ever heard of a more serious treatment called debriding? https://www.healthline.com/health/debridement#:~:text=If your wound isn't,mechanical force%2C like running water.

 

Most people never have an abrasion more serious than a skinned knee. It gets worse... much much worse.

[Rotor]

The most common insignificant cough can turn into pneumonia.

 

That is what we need, take abrasions away, when you get wet at 100% you start coughing (screen jarring), if untreated you get pneumonia and choke on your next drink and croak.

 

[meilodasreh]

7 hours ago, Pernicious said:

Most people never have an abrasion more serious than a skinned knee. It gets worse... much much worse.

yes it does...irl. In 7D2D it cannot get any worse, always stays "just a booboo". So you don't really differ, you're describing a different context.

 

3 hours ago, Rotor said:

when you get wet at 100% you start coughing (screen jarring), if untreated you get pneumonia and choke on your next drink and croak.

I hope/assume they're already on something like this in context of the weather system change.

Currently being hot/cold/wet also do not have any consequences that are worth a look, despite heat stroke and hypothermia are really bad things,

that should rather have an immense impact on your physical condition.

 

Right now you can dive through the next best river and right into a snow biome, and all that happens is that lil icon popping up and the thing on the screen edge...

Changing that to more severe effects could be used to restrict the player more, choose his paths more wisely, and having to prepare better before exploring into the desert and/or snow biome.

That would also add to TFPs intention to slow down progress.

[Old Crow]

9 hours ago, Pernicious said:

 

As someone who came off a motorcycle in just shorts and a T-shirt, I beg to differ.

 

Ever heard of road rash? And the fact that to clean it they use a wire brush? Ever heard of a more serious treatment called debriding? https://www.healthline.com/health/debridement#:~:text=If your wound isn't,mechanical force%2C like running water.

 

Most people never have an abrasion more serious than a skinned knee. It gets worse... much much worse.

 

Road rash vs a person bapping you with a hand.. kinda different.

[Roland]

On 10/3/2023 at 5:38 AM, meilodasreh said:

one injury shouldn't make other injuries or other debuffs more likely, sounds too much of a snowball/avalanche effect thingy.

But the thing about burning through calories faster would work fine I guess.

Or just a slightly stronger impact on max health/stamina than now may also do the trick.

 

 

 

If armor can make injuries and debuffs less likely I don't see a problem with something else making them more likely. There does need to be a wider variety of them. I wouldn't be against a return of a wellness as long as it is simply a measure of overall well-being and not something that can be gamed up and down by spamming foods and suiciding to fast travel.

[Pernicious]

2 hours ago, Old Crow said:

 

Road rash vs a person bapping you with a hand.. kinda different.

Well, humans don't have claws, so any stripping away of skin with fingernails would technically be an abrasion, not a laceration/cut.

 

I guess put in that context, no human/zombie could make a very serious abrasion against another person, hence they have modelled it somewhat realistically. 

[meilodasreh]

8 hours ago, Roland said:

If armor can make injuries and debuffs less likely I don't see a problem with something else making them more likely. There does need to be a wider variety of them

agreed, as long if it doesn't stack too much to become inevitable at some point, like the decrease of critial hit resistance. I like to melee a lot, and said possible snowball effects get too serious too fast.

I'm ok to get a bit beaten up in a good fight, but it must not become a vicious circle where one debuff leads to the next and so on, I guess you know how I mean it.

Might be tough to balance and find the hard but fair middle of it, but probably still possible.

Edited October 5, 2023 by meilodasreh (see edit history)

[Maharin]

On 10/5/2023 at 11:01 AM, meilodasreh said:

agreed, as long if it doesn't stack too much to become inevitable at some point, like the decrease of critial hit resistance. I like to melee a lot, and said possible snowball effects get too serious too fast.

I'm ok to get a bit beaten up in a good fight, but it must not become a vicious circle where one debuff leads to the next and so on, I guess you know how I mean it.

Might be tough to balance and find the hard but fair middle of it, but probably still possible.

 

I agree that one debuff causing another could get too harsh too quickly.  But, progressive debuffs need to progress a LOT more quickly in this game.  And I wish buff and debuff times were scaled to game day length instead of real world time.  Choosing your game day length would become a lot more important to game play than it is now.

[avalonnn]

I play on very easy level -- but abrasions matter when you are swarmed or ambushed. And my zombies are moving slower than yours. Small debuffs have a large effect when applied many times.

[Ramethzer0]

On 10/4/2023 at 2:01 PM, meilodasreh said:

and that‘s a very annoying thing right? So yes it should definitely become part of the game too, is it that what you‘re trying to say?

 

Ahhh yes.  Let's overlook a strong detail about infection in a game that has baked in features regarding  *checks notes*  infection.

 

Debuffs are annoying.  That's the point.

 

This game does have some immersion elements sprinkled in even if its not implemented across the board, and that fact doesn't bother me in the slightest.  Wounds like abrasions and infections in this game represent a deterrent from melee combat.  We're not meant to rely upon it all the time.  This is in addition to the fact that in some past alpha builds, melee was problematic because you could smear small groups of zeds by simply timing retreats in your combat pattern.   You are very late to this party.

 

Edited October 7, 2023 by Ramethzer0 (see edit history)

[RStarphoenix]

Well an actual abrasion is where you scrape the surface of the skin... so it is definitely a bit more than an "owie".
Serious abrasions are literally when you rip the topmost layer of your skin off so it being the type of debuff in game I feel like is appropriate.

Road rash is a super serious abrasion that motorcyclists can get when they wipe out (imagine if with the wobbly mechanics the motorcycle has if we had
a way to wipe out and fall off and have an 8-hour in-game roadrash debuff).

It is annoying, can be treated easily, but it will potentially cause pain and/or discomfort (in game mechanics, the debuff) until it goes away.
I feel like for how it is represented in game it is fairly accurate.

Edit: Although in thinking about it, it would be nice if it gave a very small movement penalty since sometimes if you get a really good scrape IRL you aren't fully moving if the abrasion is in the right spot. Or as someone else said, an untreated one could randomly lead to infection which can happen.

Edited October 8, 2023 by RStarphoenix (see edit history)

[Ramethzer0]

I'd like to point out that even the vanilla setting zombies can and do break through concrete and steel blocks with their bare hands.  This sorta works against notions that support how ineffectual a light abrasion should be.

 

[meilodasreh]

Yeah I guess that's what it comes down to. A light abrasion is not worth noting, and therefore a pointless "booboo", but could become - if untreated - a serious infection.

So far so good, and after taking the other points made here into consideration I would even go so far to say they could be able to make other debuffs worse.

 

So what about that:

Make abrasions influence (speed up) infection percentage (if you already have one), maybe even at a slightly growing rate over time.

If you have no infection, it does raise the chance to get one slightly.

 

So if you treat it fast it was only that lil booboo that did nothing.

If you don't treat it, you take the risk of letting things grow bad, but not in a too serious way to get out of hands in the middle of a battle (like debuffs like slow/stun tend to do)