To fix stealth... nerf stealth?

[NekoPawtato]

2 hours ago, theFlu said:

 but having checked how the prison works.. all bets are off, likely just outside the door.. no more clearing areas for safety

I've noticed if I place frame blocks in the locations where the zombies are supposed to spawn in later, the game won't spawn them when the volume is triggered, but that requires you to know where they'll all spawn in from (like by looking at POI editor) haha... but that's my way of cheesing it a little

[theFlu]

6 minutes ago, Uncle Al said:

might I suggest using explosive arrows/bolts.

You may, they're great, but they're also duct tape and a crucible away.. Pipes, plant fiber, gunpowder sounds a little easier combo; and the trader is literally demanding me to take some throwable boombooms in the early game ..

[zztong]

2 minutes ago, NekoPawtato said:

I've noticed if I place frame blocks in the locations where the zombies are supposed to spawn in later, the game won't spawn them when the volume is triggered, but that requires you to know where they'll all spawn in from (like by looking at POI editor) haha... but that's my way of cheesing it a little

 

There was a smaller warehouse I did today -- I don't recall the name -- but it had some Z's spawn behind me. They were behind a strong door that I didn't pry open, but it opened on a trigger. To your point, it had me thinking maybe I need to be leaving spikes behind me. Yet I still want to have an egress. Then I thought maybe putting spikes against untrusted doors when it comes to approaching a final encounter.

[theFlu]

5 minutes ago, NekoPawtato said:

but that's my way of cheesing it a little

Might as well, not like the designers are going to complain. I myself, will rather hang up the game though...

[NekoPawtato]

16 minutes ago, zztong said:

 

To your point, it had me thinking maybe I need to be leaving spikes behind me. Yet I still want to have an egress. Then I thought maybe putting spikes against untrusted doors when it comes to approaching a final encounter.

Yeah I'm also considering bringing forged iron with me so I can repair any flimsy doors so I can get more breathing room and focus on one group of zombies at a time, or ya know, prepare some exploding arrows to shoot in their face once they all bunch up by the door

Edited June 26, 2023 by NekoPawtato (see edit history)

[hiemfire]

1 hour ago, theFlu said:

Might as well, not like the designers are going to complain. I myself, will rather hang up the game though...

Isn't there an on and off again @%$# fest over "nerd poling"? Watch it gain stronger dev backing to eliminate it when they see people blocking spawn points with frames...

[theFlu]

1 hour ago, hiemfire said:

fest over "nerd poling"?

Ehh.. if that bothered the designers, they'd just spawn a dozen rad vultures on anyone detected outside the POI roof bounds..

[hiemfire]

1 minute ago, theFlu said:

Ehh.. if that bothered the designers, they'd just spawn a dozen rad vultures on anyone detected outside the POI roof bounds..

Give them time...

[Ailin]

1 hour ago, theFlu said:

Ehh.. if that bothered the designers, they'd just spawn a dozen rad vultures on anyone detected outside the POI roof bounds..

They were floating the idea during GNS interview i think it was? of only allowing completely free frame uses inside Land Claims, I dont know if they are still considering that.

[pApA^LeGBa]

5 hours ago, Ailin said:

They were floating the idea during GNS interview i think it was? of only allowing completely free frame uses inside Land Claims, I dont know if they are still considering that.

 

Wich would simply lead to people using landclaims at the POI´s they are going to loot. You can have 3 active landclaims at once now. On a dedicated server you can even  have as much as you want. So i don´t think that´s going to happen.

 

What hopefully happens, is that sleepers spawning in behind me after i entered a room is going to be fixed.

Edited June 26, 2023 by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)

[theFlu]

10 hours ago, Ailin said:

They were floating the idea during GNS interview i think it was? of only allowing completely free frame uses inside Land Claims

Yeh, that ain't gonna fix it either. They'd have to make the installation of a land claim into a timed event like the old concrete drying. Which wouldn't negate the base building aspect, but if successful it would destroy the nature of their world.

 

The main unique thing in the game is the free environment. Take that away, and you have a standard issue static game with absolutely nightmarish lag. Because of the lag and other issues cause by the world (generally slowness), they won't be able to match any static game in the AI side, or I'd guess encounter design.

 

Having to design _against_ the builder game they have is a clear indication that they are trying to do things that aren't a good fit for it.

 

They could, in a "Tier 1 introductory Fetch" tell the player ..

"Craft a ladder"

"See that broken ladder there, repair it by installing a new one"

"Get the satchel"

and "Talk to Trader" ..

And go from there.

 

Make the building an expected part of the quest experience. Let the players be creative. If they mess up, they mess up, but ..

Don't give them buckets, trucks and a sandbox only to then cover the sand in concrete to make it into car track. Fixing the car track can be half the fun.

Edited June 26, 2023 by theFlu (see edit history)

[Alamarian]

I think the most realistic solution would be to just remove stealth from the game. There's no shame in design by subtraction.

 

It's clear TFP has 100% stealthing of POIs on their "wrong play" list. I don't even think that they are wrong to target stealth because, as some have noted here, it can be downright OP. But their attempts to "combat" stealth through level design don't moderate stealth, they just kill it. It doesn't feel balanced. There are POIs you can stealth without issue and possibly with little skill investment, there are POIs you absolutely cannot stealth 100% with ANY amount of skill investment and there's also no way of knowing without diving in. So without a major overhaul, the only options are to leave stealth a haphazard mess or totally dump the stealth system. Maybe a bandaid fix of advertising which POIs are stealthable and which aren't, to at least keep players informed.

 

There are other solutions but they will require major rework to existing POIs and systems. Not sure it's a good investment at this point.

[stryker290]

Anybody else notice the nerf to the pipe smg?  Use to stealth around with that silenced, now i'ts got the mp5 audio and it's loud and awful.

[H7dek7]

I'm a fan of stealth playstyle, but I agree it's OP in A21. Day 5: 3/5 bows + 3/5 hidden strike + primary bow + stone arrow = one-hit most of the zombies (even the fat ones). On the other hand, it's more difficult to go ninja-mode in a POI, because more zombies are behind obstacles and now zombies trigger-spawn awaken (see other topic).

Edited June 27, 2023 by H7dek7 (see edit history)

[pottervogel]

On 6/26/2023 at 6:28 AM, Ailin said:

They were floating the idea during GNS interview i think it was? of only allowing completely free frame uses inside Land Claims, I dont know if they are still considering that.

I hope not, that would kill the best part of the game (building whereever you want whatever you want) 

[theFlu]

Just did Higashi for the first time in A21.. 5/5 Sledges now, but still cleared a lot of it with a Comp Bow (quest reward). Still rolling a stone sledge; I made a Q5 Iron, but the damage isn't worth the slowness.. most things die on one with the stone-on-a-stick anyway.

 

But, for whoever designed the prison_02, my heartfelt, cold, sarcastic 'thanks, mate' .. Higashi was still Higashi, but I couldn't take it seriously. What's the point of clearing my corners when you're just going to spawn crap on me anyway, whenever you like. So I didn't. Took a few hits, blamed my now-blind-for-roleplaying-reasons character for it. Completely cheesed the final fight, yay.

Edited June 28, 2023 by theFlu (see edit history)

[zztong]

6 hours ago, pottervogel said:

I hope not, that would kill the best part of the game (building whereever you want whatever you want)

 

I tend to agree. And, along with that, the ability for players to prepare for, and overcome, obstacles and complications.

 

I could see other ways to deal with frames, if that really is considered a problem:

 

What if frames were automatically destroyed if the block below them were destroyed? Perhaps frames would only have one point of health?

 

What if frames were insubstantial? That is, you didn't spend a little wood making a frame. You would 3D design in "ghost" shapes and then have to construct the block to get a truly material block.

[theFlu]

3 minutes ago, zztong said:

if that really is considered a problem:

 

What if frames were automatically destroyed if the block below them were destroyed? Perhaps frames would only have one point of health?

 

What if frames were insubstantial? That is, you didn't spend a little wood making a frame. You would 3D design in "ghost" shapes and then have to construct the block to get a truly material block.

Highly depends on the problem you're trying to solve. The most common complaint is people getting on roofs to clear loot stashes. Neither of these would solve that.. you could build staircases/ladders etc.

 

Another potential complaint is nerdpoling out of danger.. immaterial start frames would solve that partially - you could still prep or just build fast. But I doubt that's an issue many want "fixed".

[zztong]

Just now, theFlu said:

Highly depends on the problem you're trying to solve. The most common complaint is people getting on roofs to clear loot stashes. Neither of these would solve that.. you could build staircases/ladders etc.

 

Another potential complaint is nerdpoling out of danger.. immaterial start frames would solve that partially - you could still prep or just build fast. But I doubt that's an issue many want "fixed".

 

Agreed. Loot locations is the real issue, not building.

 

I'm of mixed feelings about nerd polling. I don't do it to instantly avoid danger, so I wouldn't miss that, but I think so many people use it that they would make the "water jars" revolt look small. At this point, people jumping up onto cubes is, to me, a 7D2D genre convention, like zombies standing on ceiling tiles or hiding in armoires.

 

But if you wanted to "solve it", I think there might be some neat options.

[meganoth]

On 6/27/2023 at 12:58 AM, stryker290 said:

Anybody else notice the nerf to the pipe smg?  Use to stealth around with that silenced, now i'ts got the mp5 audio and it's loud and awful.

 

Huh? There is no pipe smg (in vanilla)

 

[meganoth]

On 6/26/2023 at 10:46 PM, Alamarian said:

I think the most realistic solution would be to just remove stealth from the game. There's no shame in design by subtraction.

 

It's clear TFP has 100% stealthing of POIs on their "wrong play" list. I don't even think that they are wrong to target stealth because, as some have noted here, it can be downright OP. But their attempts to "combat" stealth through level design don't moderate stealth, they just kill it. It doesn't feel balanced. There are POIs you can stealth without issue and possibly with little skill investment, there are POIs you absolutely cannot stealth 100% with ANY amount of skill investment and there's also no way of knowing without diving in. So without a major overhaul, the only options are to leave stealth a haphazard mess or totally dump the stealth system. Maybe a bandaid fix of advertising which POIs are stealthable and which aren't, to at least keep players informed.

 

There are other solutions but they will require major rework to existing POIs and systems. Not sure it's a good investment at this point.

 

First something you might not know: TFP developers have said that it is intentional that POIs often can't be stealthed 100%. By that they mean can not be cleared completely while staying in stealth ALL THE TIME! What is still possible in almost all POI's, even if sometimes difficult, is to leave stealth to run away and either gun down any zombies that manage to follow or restealth out of sight and then kill those zombies stealthed again.

 

I haven't played the new prison myself, it is possible it may be an exception to the rule but that doesn't invalidate the rule. It just means a POI designer got over-ambitious with placing his traps everwhere.

 

POI designers probably even design for stealth in mind, but may also fall into the trap of thinking too high of the observation power of the average player for example. According to one of the POI designers the new POIs have actually high ledges or similar stuff added to help (stealth) players survive those surprise attacks. 

And yesterday I cleared a POI that may have been tier3 or tier4 (center town, 3 adjoined buildings with restaurant, bookshop and a company headquarter, end loot in a garage).  I knew from before that the garage would have surprise zombies, but I suddenly saw a ladder in jump height attached to the wall that I think wasn't there in previous alphas(?). Is that supposed to be a hint? Don't know, but it is also one way to survive this, no matter what spec you are. I didn't even use the ladder, by the way. I had prepared to run back up the building to a safe spot. And I didn't even need that for the zombies in the room because I could snipe them all, but later zombies from the street broke in and hunted me.

 

 

If stealthing were on their "wrong play" list they simply would have removed it.

 

Edited June 29, 2023 by meganoth (see edit history)

[stryker290]

8 hours ago, meganoth said:

 

Huh? There is no pipe smg (in vanilla)

 

Pipe machinegun.

[meganoth]

3 hours ago, stryker290 said:

Pipe machinegun.

 

That thing needed a nerf like no other item in the game.

[BFT2020]

21 hours ago, meganoth said:

 

That thing needed a nerf like no other item in the game.

 

I did that on my end, swapped it to 9mm ammo and lowered damage and the fire rate.  It's not as OP as it use to be.