Sleepers even worse now.

[hiemfire]

17 minutes ago, RhinoW said:

I think we can all agree neither the stealth nor the sleeper behavior is intuitive atm and they need a rework sometime in the future. Just yesterday I stood literally in front of a standing sleeper, and got him silently, as well as missing shots on sleepers laying down and none of them waking up. But I might be 10 blocks away from a sleeper group, and all it takes is an invisible trigger that I would never know its there until I replay that PoI, that sends the zombies raging into my exact location. Which is, by all means, meta-knowledge.

Yep, there is something really wonky with how sneaking "works" in general, and completely separate from how it interacts with their poi design philosophy, that probably needs a look at by them.

 

8 minutes ago, Jugginator said:

Actually it's knowledge I acquired before being on the team lol.

Then the former (underlined in following for ease) and not the latter.

34 minutes ago, hiemfire said:

More like learn by dying or meta-knowledge of how the game works thanks to being on the dev team.

 

8 minutes ago, Jugginator said:

The system hasn't changed.

The game sure as hell has.

8 minutes ago, Jugginator said:

Am I being shamed for trying to help stealth users out that don't know this?

Any "shame" is self inflicted, all I'm doing is calling out what I see as bull@%$#.

Edited June 26, 2023 by hiemfire (see edit history)

[Jugginator]

38 minutes ago, hiemfire said:

Any "shame" is self inflicted, all I'm doing is calling out what I see as bull@%$#.

 

Wow, okay you can back off on the toxicity, please. 

[hiemfire]

On 6/24/2023 at 5:30 PM, Jugginator said:

IMO stealth is almost at the point of being broken and needing a nerf.

 

Okay, setting aside my issue with how the triggers and ambush volumes are set up, I can agree with you that there is definitely an issue with stealth. They should not be remaining oblivious to the player while colliding with them and, even with the silencer, those shots you took inside that close of proximity, aimed off so as not to hit, should have gotten you hit, killed in the case of the horde that the trigger summoned.

[Jugginator]

There we go, productive discussion

 

Yeah I agree, there are a lot of weird things to be worked out. It would be a system change and a lot of work, so that would be in the future before gold. Also has to be worked around with bandits, so be a good time to go have a look when those are more done.

 

But, for now, this is what we have; so, this was mostly showing how you can still use stealth in trigger/attack volumes, a bit of solid nerves and tactics can allow you to sneak those zombies even in the same room. 

Edited June 26, 2023 by Jugginator (see edit history)

[hiemfire]

1 hour ago, Jugginator said:

There we go, productive discussion

We were talking about parallel but related issues with me assuming that your position was just more dismissiveness and down playing of mine.

1 hour ago, Jugginator said:

Yeah I agree, there are a lot of weird things to be worked out. It would be a system change and a lot of work, so that would be in the future before gold. Also has to be worked around with bandits, so be a good time to go have a look when those are more done.

Honestly I'm not getting a good feeling about how bandits are going to pan out initially unless the POI designers heavily back off of, preferably completely stop putting in, the ambush spawning for the bandit POIs. Especially the triggered spawn ins with pincering or fully surrounding of the player out of nowhere. Leaving a cleared room or entering an empty one only to have one or more spawn in and pump a shot, dump a mag, or introduce the head of a melee weapon into your back, sneaking or not, is going to be a whole other level of hell no.

 

Edited June 26, 2023 by hiemfire (see edit history)

[NekoPawtato]

5 hours ago, RhinoW said:

event explosions

actually...

Spoiler

you might like parking_lot_02 aka Mobile Field Hospital (the yellow medic camp tents) 😉

 

Edited June 26, 2023 by NekoPawtato (see edit history)

[meganoth]

6 hours ago, hiemfire said:

 

Like Str running shotguns, just with much lower damage and more bouncing off of the ceilings due to parkour being full power at all times?

 

If he uses light armor or has read the absolutely OP book in the urban series, yes. But STR was always easy mode, I don't expect this to ever change.

 

I love parkour, even with the detriment of having to be careful with some jumps. I don't want an extra key for it.

[theFlu]

11 minutes ago, meganoth said:

I don't want an extra key for it.

I'd propose a length-of-press control for the jump key, but that would require a lag free game or a priority thread for input management, neither of which is on the required-for-gold list ..

[RhinoW]

54 minutes ago, NekoPawtato said:

actually...

  Hide contents

you might like parking_lot_02 aka Mobile Field Hospital (the yellow medic camp tents) 😉

 

I remember that one, but that one is just a trigger that "happens". I meant like the player pressing the button connecting to TNT or igniting a fire hazard to blow up a gas tank.

[Laz Man]

11 hours ago, meganoth said:

 

Now we are getting somewhere. Agi players have "run and gun" but not the firepower to take a stand when there are so many zombies, so I suppose this should be the solution.

 

I can see in the big room of the video a player could run around evading zombies for a while and do "run and gun" until he can actually run out or the situation is under control (though run stamina could be a big problem). I'll have to test if I can actually do this without getting killed every time.

 

Can I assume that encounters where run-and-gun is obviously not possible (like say a small corridor with zombies on both sides immediately blocking the way) will be fixed when reported?

 

 

I know some of those encounters seem impossible to overcome, especially for the stealth player.  However, there are things placed in those setups for players to take advantage of to even the odds.

 

 

For example, in the county jail, the area outside of the lobby is actually part of the combat space.  There are intentional places for the player to jump on top of and to also shoot to even the odds.

 

Also, gas barrels and other similar blocks blow up faster with less bullets in A21. 😎

 

 

Edited June 27, 2023 by Laz Man (see edit history)

[hiemfire]

@Laz Man So the designed solution is not only to go loud but to also destroy a resource that has been made allot more scarce which will spike the heat map from the impacts of the shots and the weapon firing, causing it to detonate which will also spike the heat map and destroy any containers + the loot they contain around it, compromise the SI of portions of the POI which will also spike the heat map as those portions of it collapse, very likely resulting in a screamer chain. There is a question on the tip of my tongue that out of politeness I will not ask.

[theFlu]

Just did the new T5 old folk's home .. no spoilers, but whatever cheese you feel like bringing, bring it. And all of the cheese you Don't feel like bringing, bring that too.. the designers sure as hell did.

 

Now, I'm not going to claim it's necessarily terrible, I was able to pre-build myself out of all* of the "traps" - so I guess it was "readable" in the new sense of the game.

*except a completely random roof spawn with a weird trigger, but that was small enough not to bring me down to less than half health.

 

I'm actually bitter right now. Didn't think you had it in you, old man.. darnit ..

[hiemfire]

54 minutes ago, theFlu said:

Just did the new T5 old folk's home .. no spoilers, but whatever cheese you feel like bringing, bring it. And all of the cheese you Don't feel like bringing, bring that too.. the designers sure as hell did.

 

Now, I'm not going to claim it's necessarily terrible, I was able to pre-build myself out of all* of the "traps" - so I guess it was "readable" in the new sense of the game.

*except a completely random roof spawn with a weird trigger, but that was small enough not to bring me down to less than half health.

 

I'm actually bitter right now. Didn't think you had it in you, old man.. darnit ..

So HE rockets and to Hell with the quests.

Edited June 27, 2023 by hiemfire (see edit history)

[Scyris]

On 6/15/2023 at 8:01 PM, Vaeliorin said:

Honestly, the biggest thing that's bugged me about this so far is locked doors that magically unlock and open when you cross an invisible line.  Honestly, much as I hate it, zombies smashing through a wall made much more sense than magically unlocking doors.

 

I've always been on the fence with this, like, what were the people doing in that wall before they died? it makes no sense why they are there, even moreso for the ones that are in the cieling. Zombies were previously humans, and alot of the places they spawn from just make NO SENSE what soever for them to be coming from there. Lets not get into how artifical sleeper placement is in the first place, why is every sleeper almost always perfectly positioned behind a object so you cannot get a line on it to shoot it on the devs planned path? It just feels super artificial to the player. I mean the odd one getting lucky to go dormant in a spot like that makes sense, but the fact its almost every single sleeper is the problem. The fact almost every poi is bascially a dungeon on rails also feels fake as hell, its like.. what the hell were the people there trying to do before they died? I mean some people like this like say, a government facility would make sense, but some random house? makes no sense at all.

[theFlu]

6 minutes ago, Scyris said:

why is every sleeper ...

Yeah, that used to be The problem; but still something that could've potentially been explained, somehow - albeit my imagination wouldn't have sufficed.

Now, with the new traps spawning things into places you saw to be clear two seconds ago, even continuity is gone. It's just not a thing anymore. Nevermind "why", "where" and "when" are broken

[Scyris]

You think this is bad? wait till we got bandits with guns, you think melee zombies are bad? wait till 10 bandits with laser-guided assault rifles just spawn and charge you from 3 sides at once. Its part of the reason I hope when bandits are in you can disable their spawn entirely in the game options. I got no interst in aimbot npcs with guns in 7dtd, they just don't fit. The gameplay does not support that sort of playstyle it'd need major changes across the board to be able to support it properly that it'd turn into a completly diff game. Bandits are going to be a crapshow i'm calling it now.

[LackLustaFilaBusta]

1 minute ago, Scyris said:

You think this is bad? wait till we got bandits with guns, you think melee zombies are bad? wait till 10 bandits with laser-guided assault rifles just spawn and charge you from 3 sides at once. Its part of the reason I hope when bandits are in you can disable their spawn entirely in the game options. I got no interst in aimbot npcs with guns in 7dtd, they just don't fit. The gameplay does not support that sort of playstyle it'd need major changes across the board to be able to support it properly that it'd turn into a completly diff game. Bandits are going to be a crapshow i'm calling it now.

They have to actually get around to adding them first lol, I'm sure alpha 22 will be yet another skill system rework instead

[Scyris]

2 minutes ago, LackLustaFilaBusta said:

They have to actually get around to adding them first lol, I'm sure alpha 22 will be yet another skill system rework instead

 

Some mods back in alpha 16 had bandits with guns. Darkness Falls to name one, its not like the raycasting system guns use has changed much from a16 to a21/22. Its actually part of the reason why bandits are delayed, TFP is having issues making the bandits just not be laser aimbots, due to the fact they don't/may not want to change the whole gun system to support them properly.

[LackLustaFilaBusta]

2 minutes ago, Scyris said:

 

Some mods back in alpha 16 had bandits with guns. Darkness Falls to name one, its not like the raycasting system guns use has changed much from a16 to a21/22. Its actually part of the reason why bandits are delayed, TFP is having issues making the bandits just not be laser aimbots, due to the fact they don't/may not want to change the whole gun system to support them properly.

And I'm sure that they could have found a way to make it work by now if they didn't sideline it to continually rework systems that they have no idea on how they want to work. I mean its alpha after alpha they delay stuff that was supposed to be added in it just so they can rework the same couple of things.

[Scyris]

27 minutes ago, LackLustaFilaBusta said:

And I'm sure that they could have found a way to make it work by now if they didn't sideline it to continually rework systems that they have no idea on how they want to work. I mean its alpha after alpha they delay stuff that was supposed to be added in it just so they can rework the same couple of things.

 

True, they redo too many of the systems far too often, no arguement there, like I said in this thread or another i've been in several early access games, and 7dtd is the only one that seems so.. wishy washy like this. Its caused the game to stagnate and basically not go anywhere really since a16. I mean a21 is pretty much mostly a art update alpha, not gonna lie it looks good though, but I wish they'd stop focusing on making the game prettier and focus more on the gameplay and performance side as thats where vanilla suffers the most atm.

 

When people ask me if I reccomend 7dtd I usually tell them this: if your willing to get into mods its a great framework for mods, but the vanilla game is lacking in many aspects, if you were gonna buy it just for vanilla i'd not reccomend it to be honest, but if your willing to mod it, the game will last you a long time, as many mods completly change the game.

 

[LackLustaFilaBusta]

2 minutes ago, Scyris said:

 

True, they redo too many of the systems far too often, no arguement there, like I said in this thread or another i've been in several early access games, and 7dtd is the only one that seems so.. wishy washy like this. Its caused the game to stagnate and basically not go anywhere really since a16. I mean a21 is pretty much mostly a art update alpha, not gonna lie it looks good though, but I wish they'd stop focusing on making the game prettier and focus more on the gameplay and performance side as thats where vanilla suffers the most atm.

 

When people ask me if I reccomend 7dtd I usually tell them this: if your willing to get into mods its a great framework for mods, but the vanilla game is lacking in many aspects, if you were gonna buy it just for vanilla i'd not reccomend it to be honest, but if your willing to mod it, the game will last you a long time, as many mods completly change the game.

 

I feel like they could easily make a great skill system, they have all the pieces to make a good system if they'd actually integrate them together. Learn by doing for weapons and harvesting and learn by reading for crafting with some perks that dont fit either category using skill points would create a decent system that gives everyone something they like, but instead they want to rework the poor skill system we have now that limits the player greatly.

[pApA^LeGBa]

Yeah, the place where the zombies spawn are really weird. It has "We desperatly need to challenge the player and can´t come up with anything else" written all over it and feels artificial af. Zombies in cupboards were already weird, but A21 put this to a new level of weirdness. 

 

And it also feels so wrong that i can do whatever i want, even use grenades, right under a drop ceiling with zombies above me without them waking up. But if i quietly move a bit further on the intended path of the POI, using stealth, they all wake up and drop in my back. That´s just bad. It was already bad before when you could do whatever you want in the room next to the sleepers, but the waking up once you passed them even after using explosives right under them, is even worse and only topped by zombies spawning in once you walked by their spawn point. That´s simply cheap and seems like a desperate measure.

 

Seeing how they have to make zombies more of a threat in POI´s (wich isn´t a bad thing, just do it right and not weird) i have low hopes for bandits tbh.

Edited June 27, 2023 by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)

[Scyris]

18 minutes ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

Yeah, the place where the zombies spawn are really weird. It has "We desperatly need to challenge the player and can´t come up with anything else" written all over it and feels artificial af. Zombies in cupboards were already weird, but A21 put this to a new level of weirdness. 

 

And it also feels so wrong that i can do whatever i want, even use grenades, right under a drop ceiling with zombies above me without them waking up. But if i quietly move a bit further on the intended path of the POI, using stealth, they all wake up and drop in my back. That´s just bad. It was already bad before when you could do whatever you want in the room next to the sleepers, but the waking up once you passed them even after using explosives right under them, is even worse and only topped by zombies spawning in once you walked by their spawn point. That´s simply cheap and seems like a desperate measure.

 

Seeing how they have to make zombies more of a threat in POI´s (wich isn´t a bad thing, just do it right and not weird) i have low hopes for bandits tbh.

 

Part of the explosives thing is the fact TFP finally fixed explosions going thru blocks. Molotovs still do but thats due to how they work, but grenades? you can chuck one at a door you know a zombie is behind and it'll literally leave the zombie on the other side untouched. Though I sort of prefer it this way, as it makes building your base to deal with cops/demolishers and cop puke easier. Cover the walkway with plates and it'll basically never collapse as they have to get thru the plate first to hit the block under it. I also notice since a20 cop puke doesn't aoe explosion when it hits like it used to, you notice this the most on normal cops, it just hits the one block it hit directly, compared to before where it was a 3x3 explosion. Ferals still suck thou as they have a puke shotgun.

[pApA^LeGBa]

Well the noise should wake them up and not any damage. It makes the invisible barrier even more obvious that way. Wich is a big immersion killer. It feels so aracady.

[Scyris]

4 minutes ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

Well the noise should wake them up and not any damage. It makes the invisible barrier even more obvious that way. Wich is a big immersion killer. It feels so aracady.

 

True. the noise should wake them up.