Tier 5 POI's

[Kyoji]

From what I have read many people seem dissatisfied with how tier 5 POIs are setup and how the quests with them are integrated. Apologies if this has been discussed more in depth elsewhere - I did a search and only found older topics of general dissatisfaction. Speaking for myself, I feel that the time and efficiency to loot ratio is off. The hardened chests in tier 5 POI's offer some valuable goodies in them to be sure, however, much of the POI inevitably gets left out due to constraints with your inventory management. Combine inventory constraints with the sheer size of tier 5 POIs and it's difficult to get back to your vehicle to drop items off to make the most of your trip like you may be able to do in a smaller tier 3 or tier 4 POI.

 

In order to make tier 5 POIs desirable one would have to feel like the time and effort invested is worth the output. To that end there are several things that could be done to help alleviate some of the issues. For starters we would have to look at inventory management. Without having to re-do tier 5 POI's I think there are a couple ways to help offer a player more bang for their buck - granted these are just rough ideas and I am sure others can come up with better ones. One could install a mailing system within the POI that (once a quest has started) will trigger a drop-off point within the POI that will send a set amount of inventory space to the trader to be collected in a drop off chest at your convenience. Another potential solution would be a temporary backpack given by the trader that would be noticeably separate from your inventory but would allow you to carry more than usual. At the end of the day one of the issues with tier 5 POI's is how large the POI is compared to what you can reasonably carry for any given mission and how difficult it can be to drop items off in your vehicle which, under normal circumstances, would act as a separate inventory for many POI's that do not suffer from convoluted vertical scaling.

 

As with most POI's the design is geared toward the loot caches at the end of the POI, which sadly encourages players who have played the game and know some of the easier loot caches to simply do a smash and grab. I won't turn this into a debate on whether loot should be more equitably distributed within the POI with less reliance on loot caches, but rather want to direct the conversation to the other problem with tier 5 POI's - limited loot cache. While the larger tier 5 loot caches offer larger and often better rewards it still pales in comparison to what can be had doing a few tier 3 runs within the same timeframe. In other words if two tier 3 loot caches equal a single tier 5 loot cache but take 1/3 the effort than you are losing efficiency spent doing tier 5 buildings when for the same time investment you can do two or even three tier 3 POI's. I am not sold on the idea of simply adding more loot to the POI, but rather there needs to be a specific reason for doing end-game POI's. Something you can't get doing tier 3 or tier 4 whether it be a loot tier above purple (6), special crafting recipes for some end-game items whether it be ammo type, weapon type, vehicle modification, etc. In this way it's not just simply adding more loot (as we have covered you can't carry all that much anyway), but rather a shift in quality - and a dramatic one at that. By offering better rewards for the POI you encourage players to engage them outside of getting something you could have gotten in a good tier 3 or 4 POI.

 

Lastly, lets talk about the quests associated with tier 5 POI's. With how massive the POI's are there should be better marking for quests directing you towards zombies you haven't cleared yet. Unless you get to a certain threshold of zombies remaining your map won't update with locations of where the last remaining ones are located. For a tier 5 POI that can be disastrous if the zombie you need to kill is further in the POI relative to your location. Tier 5 quests could also see an increase in quest types with such things as activating relay/radio stations (complete with markers signaling as such). The tried and true kill quests that work for many other tiers fail to deliver in tier 5 and in some tier 4 if I am being honest. For this I think that POI's offering more than "x" amount of zombies (let's say 30 as an example) post the remaining zombie count up with more zombies left than in POI's that generate fewer zombies. This means that if in a tier 1 POI it requires all but 1 or 2 to be killed before it shows where the remaining zombies are located then a tier 5 should be with perhaps 8-10. In conjunction with quest dynamics difficulty the quest rewards can be hit or miss after completing a tier 5 quest. Likewise with the specific loot suggestion quests within tier 5 POI's should offer something out of the ordinary that you can't get by doing a tier 4 quest. At the very least the pool of items gained should be trimmed to provide only the best of items and not items that you received 4 days ago while doing a tier 3 quest.

 

With all that being said I do very much enjoy the large POI's. I think the scale and grandeur they provide elate myself and many people going through them for their first few times. So I think more tier 5 buildings would be great to see so long as some of the issues with them get worked out to make them worth the investment of time and energy when against the clock. Whether any one of these ideas sparks a fancy or whether none of them do I hope others will input their feedback on tier 5 quests as it's always possible perhaps I am just missing something and it's just me. Cheers.

 

UPDATE:

To make replies more streamlined I figured I would edit in some of my thoughts after reading some awesome replies by the community.

 

I agree that the red blips showing zombies can be immersion breaking, and if there was a better way to go about it I am all for it. If they could make the zombies rage mode instead and try and seek the player that would be fine by me as well because then you can at least hear them. As a side note I have always wanted some zombie pathing within POIs rather than static sleepers. Having zombies path in a radius and move about a small bit would be more challenging and realistic than sleepers and pop-up zombies, but I would be fine with a combination of one or more.

 

Also, I want to elaborate that I do enjoy the inventory management part of the game, however, my point isn't directed specifically towards that, but to the imbalance presented inherently within T5 POIs. From a balance perspective I do not think T5 POI's are worth the time investment and when you have others echo the sentiment such as Kage848 and others in posts and threads it gets me thinking that perhaps there is some way to entice people, again from a balance perspective, to partake in the T5 fun. So it's not about making inventory management easier in general but bringing T5 POIs more in-line with other tier POIs from a balance perspective.

 

It's not that T5 POIs are not "fun", but that they are not balanced when compared to other tier POIs. If you could combine both the current fun elements and balance then I believe the "fun" value would increase as well as it wouldn't just be subjective "fun" that people derive from setting their own goals, but one that fits within the scheme of the game which balances itself.

 

The goal isn't to minimize fun, but to maintain the fun of T5 POIs while also making them worthwhile from a gameplay mechanic standpoint. 

 

I guess what I am trying to express is that if we agree, generally, that T5 POIs do not offer the same value to time investment as other POIs then from a development standpoint then would it hurt to bring T5 POI's more in-line with other POIs or should they be only for experience farming and general enjoyment? Unless you register experience as a calculable byproduct of a T5 POI in which you may justify the longer duration when compared to other POI's I don't think "fun" values decrease by bringing T5 POIs more in-line with other POIs for time investment versus gains.

Edited November 5, 2022 by Kyoji (see edit history)

[Banginurz]

17 minutes ago, Kyoji said:

 

 

In order to make tier 5 POIs desirable one would have to feel like the time and effort invested is worth the output. To that end there are several things that could be done to help alleviate some of the issues. For starters we would have to look at inventory management. Without having to re-do tier 5 POI's I think there are a couple ways to help offer a player more bang for their buck - granted these are just rough ideas and I am sure others can come up with better ones. One could install a mailing system within the POI that (once a quest has started) will trigger a drop-off point within the POI that will send a set amount of inventory space to the trader to be collected in a drop off chest at your convenience. Another potential solution would be a temporary backpack given by the trader that would be noticeably separate from your inventory but would allow you to carry more than usual. At the end of the day one of the issues with tier 5 POI's is how large the POI is compared to what you can reasonably carry for any given mission and how difficult it can be to drop items off in your vehicle which, under normal circumstances, would act as a separate inventory for many POI's that do not suffer from convoluted vertical scaling.

In Single Player games, the inventory thing can definitely be an issue.  I want 'ALL' this stuff, or at least a lot more than I can carry by myself.  Perhaps a loot crate that can be lowered from a ledge or broken window with a pulley/crane item that can be crafted.  The better the crane/pulley, the more the crate can hold or the further the rope/chain/whatever on it can reach downwards.  Just spit-balling ideas here.  Perhaps it can be a perk in one of the trees. Higher the perk, the further/more loot crates you can have at once.  At the end of the mission, you gather the crates and put them on your vehicle.

17 minutes ago, Kyoji said:

 

As with most POI's the design is geared toward the loot caches at the end of the POI, which sadly encourages players who have played the game and know some of the easier loot caches to simply do a smash and grab. I won't turn this into a debate on whether loot should be more equitably distributed within the POI with less reliance on loot caches, but rather want to direct the conversation to the other problem with tier 5 POI's - limited loot cache. While the larger tier 5 loot caches offer larger and often better rewards it still pales in comparison to what can be had doing a few tier 3 runs within the same timeframe. In other words if two tier 3 loot caches equal a single tier 5 loot cache but take 1/3 the effort than you are losing efficiency spent doing tier 5 buildings when for the same time investment you can do two or even three tier 3 POI's. I am not sold on the idea of simply adding more loot to the POI, but rather there needs to be a specific reason for doing end-game POI's. Something you can't get doing tier 3 or tier 4 whether it be a loot tier above purple (6), special crafting recipes for some end-game items whether it be ammo type, weapon type, vehicle modification, etc. In this way it's not just simply adding more loot (as we have covered you can't carry all that much anyway), but rather a shift in quality - and a dramatic one at that. By offering better rewards for the POI you encourage players to engage them outside of getting something you could have gotten in a good tier 3 or 4 POI.

No debate on the first part.  If people choose to break immersion and smash and grab, that's on them.  Anyone whom has played a while knows the difference between playing the quests as they are intended and not playing them that way.

 

As far as the efficiency point, I personally play the T5s for the experience of it all, not just the loot.  But I can agree that if I need good loot and good loot only in larger amounts, the lower Tier zergs are the way to go.  Maybe a bump in the end reward from xp or maybe double items/dukes/what have you for doing T5s would help?  Again, I'm only trying to add to the discussion.  I would honestly do T5s myself for no rewards except the fun of doing them.

17 minutes ago, Kyoji said:

 

Lastly, lets talk about the quests associated with tier 5 POI's. With how massive the POI's are there should be better marking for quests directing you towards zombies you haven't cleared yet. Unless you get to a certain threshold of zombies remaining your map won't update with locations of where the last remaining ones are located. For a tier 5 POI that can be disastrous if the zombie you need to kill is further in the POI relative to your location.

This.  It is a problem that I hope TFP finds a way to fix.  Nothing more frustrating than clearing a T5, running all the way back through it, and not able to find the bird that flew off or the last zombie in a room in the basement.

17 minutes ago, Kyoji said:

 For this I think that POI's offering more than "x" amount of zombies (let's say 30 as an example) post the remaining zombie count up with more zombies left than in POI's that generate fewer zombies. This means that if in a tier 1 POI it requires all but 1 or 2 to be killed before it shows where the remaining zombies are located then a tier 5 should be with perhaps 8-10. In conjunction with quest dynamics difficulty the quest rewards can be hit or miss after completing a tier 5 quest. Likewise with the specific loot suggestion quests within tier 5 POI's should offer something out of the ordinary that you can't get by doing a tier 4 quest. At the very least the pool of items gained should be trimmed to provide only the best of items and not items that you received 4 days ago while doing a tier 3 quest.

Agreed.  Would certainly make things easier.  I love to explore, but see my last point.

17 minutes ago, Kyoji said:

 

With all that being said I do very much enjoy the large POI's. I think the scale and grandeur they provide elate myself and many people going through them for their first few times. So I think more tier 5 buildings would be great to see so long as some of the issues with them get worked out to make them worth the investment of time and energy when against the clock. Whether any one of these ideas sparks a fancy or whether none of them do I hope others will input their feedback on tier 5 quests as it's always possible perhaps I am just missing something and it's just me. Cheers.

Thanks to you Kyoji for making this post.  Open discussion/feedback is what makes the game better and lets TFP know how much we love this game.  I hope more folks will chime in with their opinions (and keep it civil) and hopefully throw their own ideas out there if they think something needs improving, or if they think it's fine and why.

Addendum:  I hope my previous post made sense, lol.  It's been a long workday and I have had a few beers.  And I suck at typing.  Best wishes.

[zztong]

It may not be a popular opinion, but I think managing a constrained inventory adds to the game. You either have to make tough decisions, multiple trips, or maybe put a chest in the stairway at each level as a kind of hybrid approach. I get that not everybody finds that interesting.

 

I largely see T5's as a source of experience, but that opinion is based on game realities, not necessarily anything I might think of intended design goals.

 

In terms of a time investment to clear one, on a server they clear really fast with a team of players. In solo, play I don't often bother with T5 quests. I may still clear the POI depending on my whims. I'm not overly concerned with the loot because the game stage is generally taking care of me, not any specific POI tier.

[Callum123456789]

Tier 5s aren't good as a quest however they have lots of zeds to kill for xp and have resources that you might not notice that are there let's say you need paper? Well go to shotgun messiah as a quest and destroy all the boxes there or oh you need electrical parts and a lot? Go to dishong or Higashi tower and scrap all the lights tier 5s are good but it depends on what you come there for because I'll say some of the rewards are very underwhelming when you have a lvl 6 steel club and it gives you a lvl 5 it's like just why?

[Syphon583]

I agree that T5 POIs need to have better rewards at the end. In most cases (unless I'm in the wasteland) that final loot cache is typically pretty lackluster for the amount of time and resources spent.

 

Aside from that, I personally don't mind the T5 experience otherwise. In terms of inventory management, I agree with @zztong in that choosing what you take and what you leave is part of the challenge. If you want it all, you need to invest the time to do it. Since inventory is not weight-based in this game, the limited space you have is there for balance. I could see the possibility of having a backpack mod that only fits on chest armor that increases your available space by 25% or something like that. Having a drone also helps (for those that don't know, you can stack storage mods on a drone to carry 3x the amount of loot).

 

Clearing an entire POI can be difficult. POIs have an intended path. Following that path will guarantee that you visit every area in the POI. As long as the player is sure to clear the entire zone before moving on, it is pretty easy to clear the building. The last remaining sleeper volume will appear on your hud, but maybe TFP could consider making the last 2 or 3 volumes appear in T5s.

 

Lastly, TFP have stated that new and revamped T5s will be coming in A21 and possibly for gold, and I think POI design has just gotten better and better. At the very least it'll add more variety.

[rateds2k]

47 minutes ago, Syphon583 said:

 

 

Aside from that, I personally don't mind the T5 experience otherwise. In terms of inventory management, I agree with @zztong in that choosing what you take and what you leave is part of the challenge. If you want it all, you need to invest the time to do it. Since inventory is not weight-based in this game, the limited space you have is there for balance. I could see the possibility of having a backpack mod that only fits on chest armor that increases your available space by 25% or something like that. Having a drone also helps (for those that don't know, you can stack storage mods on a drone to carry 3x the amount of loot).

 

 

I agree with this, This game is all about inventory management.   As far as the zombies showing up on the hud, I wish there was a way to disable this. It puts it on easy mode to find all the zombies, Part of the fun is finding that last one. With the hud it is no challenge to explore.

Edited November 4, 2022 by rateds2k (see edit history)

[Riamus]

I typically don't have much issue with inventory in T5 solo.  Most have a stairwell or elevator shaft that I can use to move up and down to drop things off at a vehicle even though I don't use them for clearing as I want to follow the "right" route.  Add a drive fully modded for cargo and I might leave half a dozen different items at the end, but that isn't a big deal.  It usually ends up being things like bones and rotting flesh and jars, which I don't need and are easy to come by anyway.

 

If you aren't using a fully modded T6 drone or close to that, then it definitely gets difficult.  I'll add a secure chest halfway through to stash things and then come back after unloading/selling in that case.  Usually works well. 

 

I don't think making it easy to manage loot is the right choice.  You should have to make choices on what to keep.  I also don't think you need better loot at the end.  Yes, it is a lot of work for what there is in loot, but you get a lot of experience for it.  And it is already so easy to get good loot that you are maxed out well before day 75.  If loot was more difficult to get, then a better loot at the end of T5 would be good, but now it seems it would just make it even more easy and cause you to quit your game and start a new one that much sooner.  Just my opinion, of course. 😀

 

Zombies being visible seems to work well enough in most cases.  The last 2-3 groups will show and if you go through the POI in the direction you are meant to without jumping ahead, you usually aren't missing anyone other than someone who falls and they'll be at the bottom normally.  The vulture are the only potentially difficult ones as they could be flying around anywhere.

Edited November 4, 2022 by Riamus (see edit history)

[stample]

2 hours ago, Syphon583 said:

Clearing an entire POI can be difficult. POIs have an intended path. Following that path will guarantee that you visit every area in the POI. As long as the player is sure to clear the entire zone before moving on, it is pretty easy to clear the building. The last remaining sleeper volume will appear on your hud, but maybe TFP could consider making the last 2 or 3 volumes appear in T5s.

 

Did they fix this?  Because before (a19) that wasn't true. Dishong notably had 3 or 4 'hidden' rooms, which contained sleepers that the main path didn't go through.  It also does mark the last 3 (?) volumes.  By the time you got to the top level, if the roof wasn't marked, you missed some below.  I did a lot of runs perfecting my path through Dishong to try to not miss anything on the first pass.  I make a lot of my own challenges that way, and it makes T5s more fun.  Its the journey, not the loot room.

 

Not being able to carry out all the loot never bothered me unless I really needed more specific things that I could carry, which is rare.  If you're running T5s, you don't need to carry out every can of food (go in without food and eat your way through), or paper, or even electronics, etc.  I leave behind tons of stuff and never miss it.

 

What is fun, though, is finding out just how much of something exists in certain T5 POIs.  As another survivor posted above, go through Dishong and dissassemble every single computer, fridge, microwave, and light, and see just how many electronic components you can pull out of one run.  Its kinda crazy.  Or see how many doorknobs you can get out of the new 6 story apartment building by breaking every single door.  You can quickly get what you need, while raking in zombie kill xp.  Just don't try to get all of everything.  You'll need 14 wrenches and 5 other people to carry it all.

[Syphon583]

23 minutes ago, stample said:

Did they fix this?  Because before (a19) that wasn't true. Dishong notably had 3 or 4 'hidden' rooms, which contained sleepers that the main path didn't go through.  It also does mark the last 3 (?) volumes.  By the time you got to the top level, if the roof wasn't marked, you missed some below.  I did a lot of runs perfecting my path through Dishong to try to not miss anything on the first pass.  I make a lot of my own challenges that way, and it makes T5s more fun.  Its the journey, not the loot room.

To be fair, I was basing my comments off of overall experience, not Dishong specifically. I've never had an issue clearing that POI in recent memory, and can't comment specifically on 'hidden rooms'. That's why when I say when you follow the intended path, the player should still make sure they are exploring every corner of an area before continuing on the path. It's very possible Dishong has zombie spawns that are easily missed by players, and I've run it enough to know where those zombies are. Maybe Dishong will be updated before gold to address any potential issues?

[stample]

23 minutes ago, Syphon583 said:

To be fair, I was basing my comments off of overall experience, not Dishong specifically. I've never had an issue clearing that POI in recent memory, and can't comment specifically on 'hidden rooms'. That's why when I say when you follow the intended path, the player should still make sure they are exploring every corner of an area before continuing on the path. It's very possible Dishong has zombie spawns that are easily missed by players, and I've run it enough to know where those zombies are. Maybe Dishong will be updated before gold to address any potential issues?

 

There had been discussion at one point ( can't recall if it was TFP or just players suggesting ) that hidden rooms' zombies not count toward the clear, and being specifically excluded?  Maybe that's already a thing?  I just know in A19 it could be a real bear if you missed all the hidden rooms, because there were enough that you wouldn't get the yellow marker.  You had to find and clear at least one of them on your own, else you'd spend all day wandering through the levels wondering what went wrong.

[Riamus]

I believe, though I may be missing something, that all "hidden" rooms with zombies have a partially broken door.  Anytime you see a door that is partially broken, it often means that the only way in the room is by breaking the door (or wall).  Other types of hidden rooms, such as ones where you crawl under or have to build blocks outside to reach don't contain zombies.

 

There is a medical room in one of the T5s that has a partially broken door and two zombies are in it.  In another T5, there is an empty medical room you have to break into if you want the loot.

Edited November 4, 2022 by Riamus (see edit history)

[theFlu]

13 minutes ago, stample said:

hidden rooms' zombies not count toward the clear, and being specifically excluded?  Maybe that's already a thing?

It's a thing; saw it in the spawn volume settings, something like QuestExclude or what not. Not sure how well it is set up, but at least it's a thing.

[Roland]

7 hours ago, Callum123456789 said:

when you have a lvl 6 steel club and it gives you a lvl 5 it's like just why?

 

Once you have a lvl 6 steel club you need to stop hoping for a better club no matter where you loot.  

[Roland]

 

3 hours ago, rateds2k said:

I agree with this, This game is all about inventory management.   As far as the zombies showing up on the hud, I wish there was a way to disable this. It puts it on easy mode to find all the zombies, Part of the fun is finding that last one. With the hud it is no challenge to explore.

 

Also agree that clearing a building should be about interacting with the world and not your HUD.  Clear the building using good effective searching instead of asking for more blips to appear on the compass. We don't need to make quests practically guaranteed to succeed.  The lighted path should just be the way to eventually reach the loot room if followed to the end and not be a crutch to finding every single zombie without fail. I think the simple notification on your HUD that you've found all but the last area is sufficient. Keep searching until that comes up or give up and go home with a failed quest if you'd rather. 

 

I'm all for improving the balance of time/risk/ and reward for T5 quests but adding more hand-holding (unless as an option that can be toggled) is not the way to go, imo.

 

If I was in charge I would remove all HUD notifications but make a drone mod that when installed would add them back. Then those who want those HUD helps could have them as an option by crafting/finding them and installing them into a drone and taking their drone with them. Alternatively, there could be a scanner mod that would have the drone seek out and "point" at any zeds within a 15 block radius. That could help you find the missing zeds if you use the tech.

[Pernicious]

The thread has wandered a long way from the original topic, but I wanted to make a comment on what I've observed over 25+ years of computer game playing.

 

There has long been a trend towards... how should I call it... over-optimising by players? Maxing player characters long pre-dates computer games. I have a 1983 copy of "The Dungeon Masters Guide" that advises DMs to remind players that the goal is to have fun, not to be the unstoppable killing machine they are building, and that weaknesses can be just as fun to role play as strength.

 

This grew a lot with MMOs. While magazines often had guides to defeating bosses and getting weapons, with MMOs came grinding, farming, theory crafting, simulators, and a whole raft of other stuff. The whole concept of META - Most Effective Tactic Available started a few years ago, but has also been the source of ridicule. You know, every tank in a raid turning up in identical gear to the point where people make jokes about the faux pas of not checking what your friend is wearing to the prom.

 

Again, that's all fine if that's what people enjoy.... but now we have a post that proposes skipping T5 content in favour of 3 x T4 content, and wanting new features or changes, so that you can carry away that last two blueberries without feeling like you're missing out?

 

The current mindset of over optimisation - really must be crossing the boundary between fun and a addiction. If the joy is having the best and being the best instead of the game itself, I start to wonder if we are missing out. It must be a nightmare for devs, who have to optimise enough "grind" to keep players feeling like they are progressing, and eliminating "exploits" so that players that are willing to exploit them, don't unbalance the games for those that aren't. I recently found that Division 2 patched an exploit where you could kill a boss after a very long mission, be awarded reasonable XP. Sounds balanced? It is, until people realised you could suicide before leaving the mission and immediately get the boss again with no long mission. Players were spending hundreds of hours doing so - mindlesslessly - to max out their characters. Let them have their fun, would be the old mindset - until they rejoined the multiplayer part of the game.

 

We should let people play how they want to play as a general rule. But I am finding that when games are making players choose between stuff, and there is no optimal META, when players complain and say the game is broken.... well, I don't think we should be catering to that, and I actually think they may be missing out on the joy of experience, and focusing purely on the joy of comparative acheivement. It's an easier joy, but a less fulfilling one.

Edited November 4, 2022 by Pernicious
Fixing mobile typos (see edit history)

[Banginurz]

1 hour ago, Roland said:

 

 

 

If I was in charge I would remove all HUD notifications but make a drone mod that when installed would add them back. Then those who want those HUD helps could have them as an option by crafting/finding them and installing them into a drone and taking their drone with them. Alternatively, there could be a scanner mod that would have the drone seek out and "point" at any zeds within a 15 block radius. That could help you find the missing zeds if you use the tech.

This would be absolutely awesome.  It would help the people that want the 'hand holding', and the people who don't want it can skip it.  Outstanding idea!

[warmer]

When I get to the end I usually dig a straight line from the end to the exit if at all possible to make the loot hauling easier

As much as it can suck, I find the weighing of "should I keep this or dump it now" as a significant game play mechanic for survival games.

7D2D is extremely generous compared to a game like 'Green Hell' or 'Scum' which drastically limits your ability to carry things for the sake of a hyper realistic experience.

With all that said, I typically don't have much of a problem if I scrap everything, less what I actually need, and am willing to walk/crawl my way out loaded up to the gills in loot.

[Jinx_DG]

Here's my take on the current POI's tagged for the T5 quest line..... They should't be offered as that.....  Hear Me Out.  

 

Those POI's are everything that's already been stated above and then some. By the time you advance enough to open T5 quest you are already kitted out and the chances of looting something "better" is minimal. Those POI's don't need to be T5 quested or T5 looted for player progression. You have boxes full of all the loot you could need. The jump from T4 to T5 in POI size is massive, making the questing of them a "want to do" instead of a "I need to do". 

 

Instead I would have them be offered as a Special POI quest or a Bonus POI quest included as part of the T2 (T3?) and above quest line with the Trader reward being a Substantial Amount in Dukes and/or a Trader Only type of reward.  Enough to make the risk of doing it at an early stage worth it along with the better loot and loot qantity in the poi itself. Doing those POI early and not as a quest is possible, but it's always been an option so not a reason against the idea.

 

It is very possible to do those POI's at any player level, any game stage, with any weapon or hell even a shovel, which I've seen done. Imagine a player clearing the Shotgun Mesiah before week 2 end with only a shovel & low padded amour. Beyound impressed I was. Lol. It was done as a viewer challenge and her death was highly expected and anticipated, but she managed to surpise us all and survive with no deaths, all zeds killed (with only a damned low tier shovel) and end loot obtained. 

 

I see T5 POI's as being about a quarter less than they are now in size, time needed and resource expended to complete. Something between the T4 and what the T5 are now. They should add to the players progression. Not be a Don't need to but will because Trader Quests. Should be anticipated, look forward to and rewarding enough that the need to do them is meaningful. This would also solve the difficulty in adding POI's of those sizes for T5 quest, which is a high demand of players. I can only image the effort it takes in prefabbing a building of that size for an intrigal part of the game play mechanics. Not to mention optimization. 

 

There's a nice little neighborhood house that looks unassuming, and is anything but that. It holds secrets a player could have never guessed at. For anyone that has done it knows which one I am taking about. That POI could be a good canidate for a T5 with a bit of tweaking, a few more surpise areas, and a bit more hidey zeds. T5 don't need to be massive or complicated. Just chanllenging enough to be worth it and contribute to player progression. The current T5 POI's could be the sweet bonus, the icing on the cake so to speak. The dessert we don't need, but eat anyways. 

Edited November 5, 2022 by Jinx_DG
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[Riamus]

4 hours ago, Roland said:

If I was in charge I would remove all HUD notifications but make a drone mod that when installed would add them back. Then those who want those HUD helps could have them as an option by crafting/finding them and installing them into a drone and taking their drone with them. Alternatively, there could be a scanner mod that would have the drone seek out and "point" at any zeds within a 15 block radius. That could help you find the missing zeds if you use the tech.

I was thinking the same thing, though as a helmet mod.  Either way is good and would let people who don't need the help avoid it while those that want it need it can have it... If they are willing to use a mod slot for it.

 

If they made this change, it could be adjusted to show sleepers on the current floor rather than the last 2-3 once completing everything else.  For those that want it, this would help them avoid missing some and have to backtrack.  Of course, sometimes following the"right" route means you go back to a previous floor, so maybe that would cause confusion, thinking they need to get the zombies before going up.

[Kyoji]

I appreciate all the replies and I agree with many of you in that the "fun" is how you interact with the game. I am looking at it from my perspective as a min/max gamer and from a balance standpoint - pen and paper if you will.

 

So while I agree that the red blips showing zombies can be immersion breaking, and if there was a better way to go about it I am all for it, however, I also agree that finding all of the zombies in a T5 POI, while fun for some, isn't for others. So the question I ask myself is whether TFP wanted T5 POI design to be challenging to find zombies? My answer is doubtful. Since I have been playing the game has changed in so many ways, including the indicators for zombies in the hud which, for me anyway, shows that the developers want a challenging experience but one that is still user friendly. Of course this is just my own train of thought so don't take my words as gospel. If they could make the zombies rage mode instead and try and seek the player that would be fine by me as well because then you can at least hear them. As a side note I have always wanted some zombie pathing within POIs rather than static sleepers. Have zombies path in a radius and move about a small bit would be more challenging and realistic than sleepers and pop-up zombies, but I would be fine with all three. Again, I digress.

 

Also, I want to elaborate that I do enjoy the inventory management part of the game, however, my point isn't directed specifically towards that, but to the imbalance presented inherently within T5 POIs. From a balance perspective I do not think T5 POI's are worth the time investment and when you have others echo the sentiment such as Kage848 and others in posts and threads it gets me thinking that perhaps there is some way to entice people, again from a balance perspective, to partake in the T5 fun. If you want resources or gear it's simply faster and easier to run lower tier POI's because tier 5 POIs are long and much of the things you get are thrown away. While you throw away items in lower tier POIs I would argue that it is not even close to the degree to which you do in a T5. So it's not about making inventory management easier in general but bringing T5 POIs more in-line with other tier POIs from a balance perspective.

 

The game is indeed what you make of it, but that doesn't mean the developers don't care about balance and my points stem from that aspect rather than from a "fun" perspective. Perhaps I am thinking of it wrongly and I am not shunning anyone for thinking otherwise. I just wanted to throw my 2 cents out there and see the general sentiment. 

 

I have been playing for many alphas now and enjoy the game a lot. While not very vocal on the forums or elsewhere, I appreciate all the work invested by the developers, staff, and community that have made the game what it is and to that cheers to you!  o7

[Riamus]

22 minutes ago, Jinx_DG said:

I see T5 POI's as being about a quarter less than they are now in size, time needed and resource expended to complete. Something between the T4 and what the T5 are now. They should add to the players progression. Not be a Don't need to but will because Trader Quests. Should be anticipated, look forward to and rewarding enough that the need to do them is meaningful. This would also solve the difficulty in adding POI's of those sizes for T5 quest, which is a high demand of players. I can only image the effort it takes in prefabbing a building of that size for an intrigal part of the game play mechanics. Not to mention optimization. 

I would be upset to see T5s made smaller and easier unless they added T6 at the same time and made those bigger and more challenging that T5s are today.

 

No one is required to do T5 quests if they feel they are too hard or not with the time and effort.  Changing them so casual players or those who don't want the challenge can do them is a bad idea.  Those who don't like T5 difficulty or size can easily stick to T4 and do just fine in terms of loot and progression.  You aren't penalized for not doing T5 quests other than not getting the T5 completion reward, which can be pretty nice, but it's also obtainable without doing T5s.  I admit that there are times I don't want to bother with a T5 because of the time it takes, but other times I really enjoy them.

 

When it comes down to it, I would like having larger POIs and add another tier for quests and loot to extend the game.  Making the game easier when it isn't really that hard once you know the game and POIs just shortens the game and too many players run out of things to do long before even day 100, which is unfortunate.

[Jinx_DG]

5 minutes ago, Kyoji said:

but that doesn't mean the developers don't care about balance and my points stem from that aspect rather than from a "fun" perspective.

I think what you are missing is that "fun" needs to be and is intrigual to the equation of balance. Fun can be a measurable expression just as all the other parts are. The key is giving that expression a measurement. A difficult task, but one I think TFP have done well in so far.  As more balancing is done the expression of fun in the equation will no doubt be changed or refined. 

[Kyoji]

Just now, Jinx_DG said:

I think what you are missing is that "fun" needs to be and is intrigual to the equation of balance. Fun can be a measurable expression just as all the other parts are. The key is giving that expression a measurement. A difficult task, but one I think TFP have done well in so far.  As more balancing is done the expression of fun in the equation will no doubt be changed or refined. 

I think fun is the essence that the equation seeks to achieve. As what "fun" is differs from person to person I think that would be challenging to agree upon, however, I think if we are playing then we are having fun to at least the degree we are responding to each other on a gaming forum. So my issue isn't that T5 POIs are not "fun" as that has already been achieved. My goal is to make them more balanced when compared to other POIs, at least IMHO. If you could combine the two then I believe the "fun" value would increase as well as it wouldn't just be subjective "fun" that people derive from setting their own goals, but one that fits within the scheme of the game which balances itself.

 

The goal isn't to minimize fun, but to maintain the fun of T5 POIs while also making them worthwhile from a gameplay mechanic standpoint. 

 

I guess what I am trying to express is that if we agree, generally, that T5 POIs do not offer the same value to time investment as other POIs then from a development standpoint then would it hurt to bring T5 POI's more in-line with other POIs or should they be only for experience farming and general enjoyment? Unless you register experience as a calculable byproduct of a T5 POI in which you may justify the longer duration when compared to other POI's I don't think "fun" values decrease by bringing T5 POIs more in-line with other POIs for time investment versus gains.

[Jinx_DG]

6 minutes ago, Riamus said:

easier

I never suggested T5 should be made easier, just more meaningful.

6 minutes ago, Riamus said:

I would like having larger POIs and add another tier for quests and loot to extend the game

A game can only go so large and add so much before the weight of it comes crashing down making the game unplayable. I understand you wanting more quest lines, bigger poi's, more play time, but there comes a time when what a player wants, to extend his fun becomes unfeasable and the game ride must end and the player must get of the ride. That doesn't mean he can't get on again, just that no ride lasts forever. There is only so much a game engine can handle or how big a POI can be. There are numerious threads about lag from big poi's as it is. 

 

I'd like more big poi's myself and there are plans to add more. I just think they should be treated as special. You want T6 quests, but POI's can't get bigger than what they are now. There would be no difference between T5 and T6 except for maybe the trader reward. To have more, the more needs to fit within the boundry. The game engine isn't infinite. 

3 minutes ago, Kyoji said:

but one that fits within the scheme of the game which balances itself.

 

The goal isn't to minimize fun, but to maintain the fun of T5 POIs while also making them worthwhile from a gameplay mechanic standpoint. 

Agreed. I think we are in line with each others view points on this. I just think that fun should be a part of the equation, especially with balancing from a devs view. But I can also agree that "fun is the essence that the equation seeks to achieve." 

 

Nothing says it can't be both, right? Lol

[Riamus]

16 hours ago, Jinx_DG said:

There is only so much a game engine can handle or how big a POI can be. There are numerious threads about lag from big poi's as it is. 

Yes, there are many threads about it.  However, at least from what we are heading about A21, the biggest issue causing lag on these are the bulletproof windows and those are being changed and supposedly improve the experience noticeably.  Assuming what is being said is accurate, larger POIs should be no problem.  And to be clear, by larger, I'm not suggesting something like the aircraft carrier POI in the prefab forum.  I'm talking of only somewhat larger and I do think this is feasible with the engine once windows are fixed.