Separate balancing between SP and MP/COOP

[Jost Amman]

Recently there was a discussion, on Steam, about POI "double-dipping".

That made me think of something I've been nagging the devs about for some time...

 

Double-dipping POIs it's cheesy IMO. However, I must admit that for MP players that's actually a good mechanic to avoid high traffic servers to become completely devoid of any resource after a while on top of the fact that Trader Quests already let you "renew" a little bit of resources. Now, my point is that there are too many game mechanics, settings, perks and loot tables, for which Single Player and Multi Player should be balanced differently, and sometimes even have opposite needs.

 

1. Charismatic Nature is useless for an SP game.
2. Double-dipping could be completely avoided in SP, by having the "start quest" trigger by proximity
3. Sleeping through the night (some players have requested this) could definitely be possible in an SP game
4. The Trader secret-stash should have less stuff for single players (while in MP it could be tied to the group gamestage for example)
5. Food should be much more scarce in SP (while in MP it should be proportionate to the number of players)

 

I'm sure I forgot other examples that each one of you had experience with.

What do you think on the matter? Should The Fun Pimps implement in the game two set of rules and game mechanics, one for SP and the other for MP/COOP?

[theFlu]

I don't see double dipping any different from clearing the city first (house to house nonstop until clear), then questing in the cleared area; and I can't really see clearing the city being somehow wrong?

[Matt115]

21 minutes ago, Jost Amman said:

Recently there was a discussion, on Steam, about POI "double-dipping".

That made me think of something I've been nagging the devs about for some time...

 

Double-dipping POIs it's cheesy IMO. However, I must admit that for MP players that's actually a good mechanic to avoid high traffic servers to become completely devoid of any resource after a while on top of the fact that Trader Quests already let you "renew" a little bit of resources. Now, my point is that there are too many game mechanics, settings, perks and loot tables, for which Single Player and Multi Player should be balanced differently, and sometimes even have opposite needs.

 

1. Charismatic Nature is useless for an SP game.
2. Double-dipping could be completely avoided in SP, by having the "start quest" trigger by proximity
3. Sleeping through the night (some players have requested this) could definitely be possible in an SP game
4. The Trader secret-stash should have less stuff for single players (while in MP it could be tied to the group gamestage for example)
5. Food should be much more scarce in SP (while in MP it should be proportionate to the number of players)

 

I'm sure I forgot other examples that each one of you had experience with.

What do you think on the matter? Should The Fun Pimps implement in the game two set of rules and game mechanics, one for SP and the other for MP/COOP?

This is good idea but from other hand... too much of work. Just let them finish 7dtd as fast as possible and wait for 7dtd2 

[Jost Amman]

2 hours ago, theFlu said:

I don't see double dipping any different from clearing the city first (house to house nonstop until clear), then questing in the cleared area; and I can't really see clearing the city being somehow wrong?

Well, MY opinion is that whenever you "exploit" a game mechanic in an unintended way, you're "cheesing" the game.

The SI engine WILL allow you to build in some cases floating bases.
But that is NOT an intended mechanic, so you're cheesing the game.

That being said, everyone can play their own game as they like.
Just don't call it what it's not.

Also: in this case the fact you can double-dip POIs will give you a time advantage, PLUS, depending on the POI, you can move the RNG distribution of loot to your advantage. Imagine how cheesy it is to double-dip a Crack a Book store! You'll get in a short time a boatload of books and schematics, completely bypassing the respawn timers and/or having to wait for the trader to give you another mission there.

So, as you can see, it's much more cheesy than it sounds... ;-]

[theFlu]

1 minute ago, Jost Amman said:

Imagine how cheesy it is to double-dip a Crack a Book store!

I don't have to imagine it, I always do it But I'd say double dipping on a Fat's Foods is a lot more cheesy.

 

You can "double dip" exactly once per POI on the map, assuming you didn't already clear it. Sure there are worse and better POIs to double dip, but they're also just as better and worse to pre-clear from a town if you disable double dips. I know I would run thru the place ransacking all the valuables first before starting questing. The limit I'd see something to be worth looting is the same limit as I'd see for double dipping, because it's basically the same thing.

 

You can think of it as cheesy, but disallowing it wouldn't really change anything. It's so much less cheesy that I find the comparison to a float-base a little disingenuous.

[Roland]

Whether it's cheesy or not pales before this important fact:

 

Spoiler

Madmole double dips and likes it and sees nothing wrong with it. <shrug>

 

[Jost Amman]

46 minutes ago, theFlu said:

You can think of it as cheesy, but disallowing it wouldn't really change anything. It's so much less cheesy that I find the comparison to a float-base a little disingenuous.

Anyway, my post is not about double-dip, we got off track here.

I guess you don't see a problem regarding incompatible balancing between SP and MP then?

 

I've noticed this actually while arguing on some game mechanics with people who regularly play with friends. They need and lament stuff that for me is good as it is. So, I started asking myself the question: why are they so worried about something that is working perfectly? ... Well, the answer was: because it's not working perfectly for them!

 

Whatever they do, TFP will never be able to accommodate the needs and desires of both crowds, IMO.

 

Edited September 19, 2022 by Jost Amman (see edit history)

[theFlu]

1 minute ago, Jost Amman said:

Anyway, my post is not about double-dip, we got off track here.

I guess you don't see a problem regarding incompatible balancing between SP and MP then?

Indeed, sorry for that; it was the most jarring thing on the list so I jumped on that.

I didn't vote, as the whole thing is, well, highly dependent on the state of the final game. Food and Traders especially.

 

Sleeping thru the night; don't see why not, but it also depends what the night looks like. If TFP manage to make each night a little scary, somehow, the need to "skip the boring part" vanishes.

 

Charismatic; eh, even as is, sure it's useless for SP, but INT is doing just fine as an SP build. There's quite a few perks in other trees I never pick, having one in INT isn't all that terrible

[Jost Amman]

Anyway, those are just examples... there are far more "complex" issues with balancing MP vs. SP.

 

Take for example that long and animated discussion I had with Khalagar in the A21 devs diary.

He was insisting that farming, mining and building are too nerfed for someone who wants to only play doing one of those.

In an SP game that would be foolish of course, because without looting, at least 1 day a week, you'd be soon dead.

However, when you're in a group, that could be a possibility (if the others help you).

 

Those scenarios are going to either force TFP to change the balance and @%$# off SP players, or they'll just ignore it and get the ire of many MP players like Khalagar.

 

So, as you can see, it's not just a question of this or that perk, or this or that game mechanic. It's a much wider issue with two opposite crowds with different needs.

 

Edited September 19, 2022 by Jost Amman (see edit history)

[8_Hussars]

Quote

What do you think on the matter? Should The Fun Pimps implement in the game two set of rules and game mechanics, one for SP and the other for MP/COOP?

Obviously balance in all modes is important.  Based on my rather limited COOP play on slightly harder difficulties I have never run into resource issues as there is no competition.  As for PVP and large COOP servers, resource balance has been traditionally handled by the server admins.  Maybe its best give them better tools to balance loot and respawns within their worlds.

 

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Double-dipping POIs it's cheesy IMO.

 

Cheese is in the eye of the beholder.
 

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1. Charismatic Nature is useless for an SP game.

Leaves room to save those points for something else in SP

 

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2. Double-dipping could be completely avoided in SP, by having the "start quest" trigger by proximity

Would need a more detailed explanation of solution safeguards.  Off the top, how is the player protected from "accidentality" activating the quest via a running battle or shear ignorance of the proximity limits?  Does straying outside the limits still cancel the quest?  

I loot POIs all the time without quests.  Does it matter if that loot run was immediately before resetting a POI for a quest; does a day, a week, or a month earlier matter?  This would not exactly stop double dipping just the perception of "double dipping" being two clears separated by very little time.

So not sure it it can be improved, but the trigger by proximity has some issues that may be worse that the current schema.  

 

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3. Sleeping through the night (some players have requested this) could definitely be possible in an SP game

I suspect this a non issue, and often brought up by newer players in the early days of a play through.  Once they get the flow of the game down, its quality game time.  
 

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4. The Trader secret-stash should have less stuff for single players (while in MP it could be tied to the group gamestage for example)

 

I don't find the vanilla secret stash to be OP.  Better Barter, Daring Adventurer, and Trader quests are OP, they all need to be addressed and balanced.

 

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5. Food should be much more scarce in SP (while in MP it should be proportionate to the number of players)

 

Food should remain an early game challenge in any mode.

[theFlu]

27 minutes ago, Jost Amman said:

Those scenarios are going to either force TFP to change the balance and @%$# off SP players, or they'll just ignore it and get the ire of many MP players like Khalagar.

 

So, as you can see, it's not just a question of this or that perk, or this or that game mechanic. It's a much wider issue with two opposite crowds with different needs.

For sure the balancing of each is going to be hard with a single set of rules. Any multiplayer group always has the option to play N*SP, so it can't really ever be weaker (might feel stupid playing separate games, but never weaker). For that, I feel like all of the artificial "benefits" from group play should be removed, like zombie XP getting increased in a group.

 

Any point made about "my current choice of role doesn't work" can be basically countered with "sounds like you or your mates are playing wrong"; they're trying to play a different game. These can be valid complaints, too, but they are involving the meta of the game which is sort of "up to TFP" entirely. Feedback will of course be welcome, I hope...

[Maharin]

As with any game ever, in single player you get out of it what you put into it.  If you go into it with the intentions of breaking all the rules or whatever then so be it.  It affects no one but you and throwing labels around is utterly pointless.

 

As for multiplayer, that can be a different story.  Still, if everyone is playing by the same rules and restrictions, or lack thereof, then that is all that is truly necessary.  I do understand why people would want things like balance and less cheese/cheating/whatever.

 

But I absolutely do not want TFP to spend countless hours balancing two (or more) sets of rules in a vain/futile attempt to make the nitpickers happy.  This game will continue to have flaws.  We are not living in a world where the average person has a computer that can handle large, fully destructible, voxel worlds with full physics that are devoid of all exploits.  Modders can make that version if they want.

[Jost Amman]

2 hours ago, 8_Hussars said:

Obviously balance in all modes is important.  Based on my rather limited COOP play on slightly harder difficulties I have never run into resource issues as there is no competition. 

Believe me, I've read lots of players complain that the MP world they were playing in had almost become "barren" after X days.

You don't need to play PvP for that, you just need lots of players and a server that has been running for weeks.

 

2 hours ago, 8_Hussars said:

Cheese is in the eye of the beholder.

I'm a beholder, yes (like in a huge evil eye which can cast magic). 

 

2 hours ago, 8_Hussars said:

Leaves room to save those points for something else in SP

Good... point. 

 

2 hours ago, 8_Hussars said:

I suspect this a non issue, and often brought up by newer players in the early days of a play through.  Once they get the flow of the game down, its quality game time.  

Probably, but still, it's something new players (or players who're afraid of the night) may like.

 

2 hours ago, 8_Hussars said:

Would need a more detailed explanation of solution safeguards.  Off the top, how is the player protected from "accidentality" activating the quest via a running battle or shear ignorance of the proximity limits?  Does straying outside the limits still cancel the quest?  

I loot POIs all the time without quests.  Does it matter if that loot run was immediately before resetting a POI for a quest; does a day, a week, or a month earlier matter?  This would not exactly stop double dipping just the perception of "double dipping" being two clears separated by very little time.

So not sure it it can be improved, but the trigger by proximity has some issues that may be worse that the current schema.  

Don't worry about the details... it was just an example.

The point of my entire post is that there are many things that need a different approach when balancing SP issues vs. MP issues.

 

2 hours ago, 8_Hussars said:

I don't find the vanilla secret stash to be OP.  Better Barter, Daring Adventurer, and Trader quests are OP, they all need to be addressed and balanced.

You don't, and maybe I don't, but I'm not talking about my anecdotal experience, I'm talking balancing the game across many different play styles and specifically SP players versus MP players.

 

2 hours ago, 8_Hussars said:

Food should remain an early game challenge in any mode.

Exactly. Right now it's eazy-mode in SP and much harder in MP (same example as before with maps on servers that have been running for some time).

 

 

 

9 minutes ago, Maharin said:

in a vain/futile attempt to make the nitpickers happy

But are those really "nitpickers"?

Or are they a relevant (also numerically) part of the player base? 

[Maharin]

3 minutes ago, Jost Amman said:

But are those really "nitpickers"?

Or are they a relevant (also numerically) part of the player base? 

 

The people I am referring to are nitpickers.  They cry foul at every perceived imbalance based on how THEY think the game should be.  In a highly moddable game this is not a battle TFP can win.  How many unmodded servers do you think will actually be in existence (just for a point of reference)?  People play on a server and cry foul of some imbalance simply because that server has different mods than the one they used to play on.  Don't try to tell me this won't happen.    There is no winning strategy for balance even in vanilla because it will be a simple fact that most people playing on servers will not be playing on vanilla.  Am I wrong?

[Vaeliorin]

4 hours ago, Jost Amman said:

In an SP game that would be foolish of course, because without looting, at least 1 day a week, you'd be soon dead

I play strictly single player, and post day 14, I basically don't loot outside of the random car or bookstore, usually.  I spend the time gathering resources and building.  What would I need to go looting for other than the books I'm missing?

 

That said, trying to balance for two separate modes is a fool's game.  Look at something like World of Warcraft, where whenever they made changes for PvP, it would mess things up in PvE, and vice versa.  The amount of time it would take just isn't worth the reward (which would, honestly, be pretty minor, especially given all the options for players/servers to do their own balancing.)

[Jost Amman]

6 hours ago, Vaeliorin said:

I play strictly single player, and post day 14, I basically don't loot outside of the random car or bookstore, usually.  I spend the time gathering resources and building.  What would I need to go looting for other than the books I'm missing?

Yeah, I was referring to the time when you need stuff that you simply can't have in any other way than looting. Of course, once you're set up with a nice base, a crops field and all the workstations, you can stay there all day and do nothing else if you like. 

 

[RipClaw]

16 hours ago, Jost Amman said:

Double-dipping could be completely avoided in SP, by having the "start quest" trigger by proximity

I'm honestly not thrilled with the idea of a quest being triggered by proximity. It happens to me from time to time that I pass a quest building but don't want to start the quest yet. Then this mechanism would cause the quest to fail.

 

[Vaeliorin]

2 hours ago, RipClaw said:

I'm honestly not thrilled with the idea of a quest being triggered by proximity. It happens to me from time to time that I pass a quest building but don't want to start the quest yet. Then this mechanism would cause the quest to fail.

 

Yeah, the only way this would really work is if they got rid of the "stay within the area" part of quests.  Which honestly, I think would be a good thing.  It's kinda silly if you happen to move away for a couple seconds the quest fails (not that I've ever gone chasing after meat, forgetting I was doing a quest,  and failed a quest because of it...)

[RipClaw]

8 minutes ago, Vaeliorin said:

It's kinda silly if you happen to move away for a couple seconds the quest fails (not that I've ever gone chasing after meat, forgetting I was doing a quest,  and failed a quest because of it...)

It also often happens that you forget the fetch part of the fetch and clear quest and drive off even though the quest is not yet completed.

[Jost Amman]

I should remove that example, honestly. This discussion wasn't intended to be about resolving a hypothetical issue with double-dipping POIs.

Just forget I mentioned it, I don't really care.

 

Anyway, the impression I get from several responses is that dedicated and separated balancing for SP and MP is NOT needed.

So, I'm probably the only one who thinks that. But thanks everyone for the input!  

[Vaeliorin]

I wouldn't say it's not needed.  I just think that the time and effort which would be required aren't worth the results.  Balance is not a simple thing. 

 

Besides, I imagine MP would need a different balance depending on how many people are playing.  2 people playing together is a lot different than 8.

[FinkPloyd]

MP already has some different scaling than SP (ie hordes are based on all players game stage in the area in MP, not just a single player).

Demolishers show up much earlier in MP.

 

I wonder about the new Learn by Looting (LBL) magazines.

 

Will LBL need to scale the LBL specific loot for MP?

Or will the amount of LBL specific loot per player even out as more players can do more looting in the same time? (and can make use of a boarder range of LBL specific items)