So I decided to track Sleeper volumes in Poi's and how many are ambushes.

[Scyris]

So I am going to list some of these as I come across them, maybe you fine people can help? there is a serious problem in a20 with almost every sleeper volume being a ambush of GPSing zombies, making stealth completly useless, and generally just being annoying as it shoehorns you into playing a certain way as the devs have removed the players choice from it.

 

Resturaunt_02

Sleeper Volumes:  12

Amount of Volumes that were ambushes: 11.

Thats right all but one of the sleeper volumes in this poi are ambushes with GPSing zombies that immedatly know your location the second you walk into the room, often they won't even spawn till you trigger it, which means no option to use stealth period other than that 1 volume with a single zombie dog where it actually spawns before you enter the room.

 

Office_03 (I think it was 03)

Another Poi where every single sleeper volume is a ambush, including one in the loot room, where a zombie literally spawns right beside you on the right once you walk in, allowing it a free hit on you no mnatter how fast you are. Also has multiple volumes with zombies falling from the cieling, or coming out of the walls which is just stupid, and looks silly as hell, its also @%$#-poor game design as well. Once in a while is fine, but ambushes and stuff like cieling dropping zombies should be much rarer than they are.

 

I like to play stealth, but the way A20 is thats pretty much a non option with most sleeper volumes in any poi being a ambush where they somehow immedatly know where you are the second you enter it. Many of these won't spawn the zombies till you trigger the ambush either, so you can't even snipe them from outside the room if you know about it ahead of time.

[BarryTGash]

When everything is an ambush nothing is an ambush (because you're expecting it).

 

They need to find a way to randomise them, eg. ~10% will be ambushes, so you can't know in advance. That will provide excitement and its own kind of difficulty (not through attrition, but through surprise).

[ElDudorino]

Yeah, this honestly is ridiculous. My approach to entering any fresh room in a PoI now is to run into the middle of the room and then run back out the way I came and kill whoever chases me, hoping that there isn't a collapsing floor trap. At first I was using quiet weapons but I switched to making as much noise as I want because the zombies don't attack until you trigger their spawn or wake condition anyway. I had planned to spec into stealth but that went out the window.

 

It's especially ridiculous when the zombies wake and drop down from a ceiling that's completely inaccessible. Who put them there??

[Shelgeyr]

36 minutes ago, ElDudorino said:

It's especially ridiculous when the zombies wake and drop down from a ceiling that's completely inaccessible. Who put them there??

And what has prevented them from falling through the ceiling up til now?

 

I understand the "this isn't real life" argument, but some things are harder to ignore.

For me, zombies packed neatly into shipping crates, hidden behind false walls, and chilling out above the ceiling tiles is a bit of a stretch.

[Ornias]

Yep I have always played stealth and light armor. This alpha I went full strength, heavy armor and clubs. I clear 2-3 times faster with minimal problems. I am assuming they will swing the pendulum back some in the future. 

[Scyris]

1 hour ago, Ornias said:

Yep I have always played stealth and light armor. This alpha I went full strength, heavy armor and clubs. I clear 2-3 times faster with minimal problems. I am assuming they will swing the pendulum back some in the future. 

 

yeah stealth has always cleared slower, but also used less ammo. that was its balance factor. in A20 there is no point to stealth anymore, you might as well go in guns blazing cuz almost every sleeper volume is a ambush with gpsing zombies anyway, so staying quiet is pretty much useless now in A20.

[Boidster]

For what it's worth, we did a pretty good evaluation of A20 stealth changes in the thread linked below. The specific post I linked to is to my test of an "attack" sleeper volume (what you call "ambush with GPS") where I was able to sneak into the volume right up to a sleeping zombie.

 

I did not test a "falling through the ceiling" type of trigger, though, and they may behave differently. My guess would be that if my stealth value (@ night time, in a darkened area, max skills, and so on) was low enough, even the ceiling zombies would not detect me. But I will go check out restaurant_02 to see how it goes.

 

It definitely seems much harder to stay undetected in A20, given all the complaints from stealth players. Needs a balance check for sure.

 

 

[Roland]

10 hours ago, Scyris said:

Resturaunt_02

Sleeper Volumes:  12

Amount of Volumes that were ambushes: 11.

Thats right all but one of the sleeper volumes in this poi are ambushes with GPSing zombies that immedatly know your location the second you walk into the room, often they won't even spawn till you trigger it, which means no option to use stealth period other than that 1 volume with a single zombie dog where it actually spawns before you enter the room.

 

Can we see the code on that? I really doubt that 11 of them are coded as ambush volumes. Just because you wake them up does not mean they are ambush volumes. It means you failed your stealth check. But show me in the code that 11 out of those 12 volumes are flagged as ambushes and I'll believe you and join you in criticizing that design. Otherwise, you have to destroy light sources and increase your perks to have a good chance at not waking zombies up. It is much harder now in A20 but I know that the intended design was to make almost all volumes do stealth checks and only a very few being auto aggro ambush rooms.

 

That being said, I have seen a lot more rooms in which zombies are spawning right before my eyes. I step in and there is nothing and I back up and then step forward again and they spawn often in places I can see so I think there is a bug going on with it but intentional design where all the volumes in any one POI are designated as ambush volumes is something I doubt highly and am not going to believe it just based on the fact that they woke up when you walked into the room.

[Viktoriusiii]

8 hours ago, BarryTGash said:

When everything is an ambush nothing is an ambush (because you're expecting it).

 

They need to find a way to randomise them, eg. ~10% will be ambushes, so you can't know in advance. That will provide excitement and its own kind of difficulty (not through attrition, but through surprise).

I know they won't do that, since they love their hidden sleepers:
But everything above 5% I think is an "expected" outcome.
Remember when every picture had treasure behind it?
Now it is about <10% and I don't usually bother destroying them. (mostly because wallsafe loot is absolutely bad. The reason why I don't say garbage is because garbage often has better loot inside :'D)
With dangers like zombies it is much more important to check (especially on clear missions) so making it SUPER rare is a necessity.

90-95% of zombies should be open zombies.
And I don't mean "obstructed" open zombies.
I mean literally lying there. Out in the open or standing at a flat wall. You know? Like in previous alphas... before wallzombies were introduced.



 

9 minutes ago, Roland said:

Otherwise, you have to destroy light sources and increase your perks to have a good chance at not waking zombies up. It is much harder now in A20 but I know that the intended design was to make almost all volumes do stealth checks and only a very few being auto aggro ambush rooms.

 

You often either can't reach the light source or can't destroy it without waking Z's up.
And if you can destroy a standing flashlight right next to them, but can#t crawl snailspace into a room...

something is horribly wrong and unintuitive.

And since light now affects stealth, they need to update the stealthmetre. Because currently it does not (or not correctly) factor light into this value.
I'm at 0 and Z's still wake up.

[ElDudorino]

Honestly, just run any Clear mission and the problem is glaringly obvious. Closets and ceiling zombies galore. Or ones that just pop in suddenly. Even if you don't trigger their attack, you still have to beat down the closet door, watch them stand there reactionless while you shine a light in their face, and then decapitate them. It might be a failed ambush but it's still an ambush.

 

You know when you get the orange dots to indicate the last couple stragglers and one of them is just a floating dot when you reach it, but then the second you touch the dot suddenly 4 vultures dive bomb you out of nowhere? There's no way around triggering that if you're on a clear mission. And if you're not on a mission the ambush is still there, just not visible until you've triggered it.

 

Questioning whether it's a good or bad decision is one thing but I don't see how you can question that the design exists.

[Roland]

28 minutes ago, ElDudorino said:

Honestly, just run any Clear mission and the problem is glaringly obvious. Closets and ceiling zombies galore. Or ones that just pop in suddenly. Even if you don't trigger their attack, you still have to beat down the closet door, watch them stand there reactionless while you shine a light in their face, and then decapitate them. It might be a failed ambush but it's still an ambush.

It isn't so cut and dry as you make out because we have another group of players who complain that they have to go back through and search for zombies that never woke up because they cleared the POI in stealth. So some are being too successful at stealth and others are being too much of failures at stealth. Both experiences are happening at the same time and it is because they need to give some attention to the stealth checks they've implemented. It's a big change with A20 being its first iteration. I'm not denying there's a problem but I do deny that TFP just made every room an auto ambush room. Its important to understand the actual design and how it was coded in order to identify the bugs or the way things should work. That is why I mention that the mechanic that everyone complained about in A19 is actually almost absent from the game by comparison in A20 as most auto wakeup rooms were replaced with stealth checks.

 

28 minutes ago, ElDudorino said:

You know when you get the orange dots to indicate the last couple stragglers and one of them is just a floating dot when you reach it, but then the second you touch the dot suddenly 4 vultures dive bomb you out of nowhere? There's no way around triggering that if you're on a clear mission. And if you're not on a mission the ambush is still there, just not visible until you've triggered it.

 

Questioning whether it's a good or bad decision is one thing but I don't see how you can question that the design exists.

I don't question that it exists. I question that it exists in 11 out of 12 cases in any single POI. Yes, the vulture ambush exists and the level designers do want some of that in the game so I know they exist and will always exist since they want those types of encounters to happen. If those things are really happening in 11 out of 12 cases then we need to look at whether a bug is happening or if the stealth checks are too sensitive, or what might be going on but we also need to look at these things from a correct understanding of how volumes wake up in A20 vs how they woke up in A19 because it is not the same and people are assuming TFP just increased the auto triggers.

 

42 minutes ago, Viktoriusiii said:

You often either can't reach the light source or can't destroy it without waking Z's up.
And if you can destroy a standing flashlight right next to them, but can#t crawl snailspace into a room...

something is horribly wrong and unintuitive.

 

I agree that it isn't balanced well. When the POI light sources were designed there were no stealth checks based on light. The volumes either stayed asleep or woke up when you crossed the line. Now there are stealth checks but I really doubt faatal went through every POI to see what the ramifications of nearby light sources would be. Its definitely something that needs to be reported but once again it should be reported from a correct understanding of how stealth works in A20 as opposed to A19.

Edited January 31, 2022 by Roland (see edit history)

[Viktoriusiii]

46 minutes ago, Roland said:

Its definitely something that needs to be reported but once again it should be reported from a correct understanding of how stealth works in A20 as opposed to A19.

But we general players do not know how that works.
We can only tell you how it FEELS like. (which is also a very important feedback).

And I can tell you: I didn't even know A19 had auto-wake up rooms.
A20 it feels like every room is an auto-wake up even with insane sneaking skills.

A20 is the first alpha where I actually don't bother going sneaking in pois anymore (started a game with friends).
Zombies wake up at about the same rate anyways. If I have full perks or none in heavy armor... it doesn't feel different.

[Boidster]

1 hour ago, Roland said:

Can we see the code on that? I really doubt that 11 of them are coded as ambush volumes. Just because you wake them up does not mean they are ambush volumes. It means you failed your stealth check.

 

For what it's worth (again), I played the first few rooms of restaurant_02 and it plays like other POIs as far as I can tell. I went in at night with military stealth boots, full military light armor, and max stealth perks (+Night Stalker 2 & Urban Combat 3) and I was able to sneak around pretty well. These first few woke up when I tried to shoot a light, but they only walked to where I had been when I took the shot. I backed out into the trailer (the entry point for the POI) and they lost interest.

 

 

I easily sneak-shot two of them, then the 3rd one came right at me. Ambush! But nope, he walked right past me and stood in the corner. He didn't "see" me at all, he just heard a noise. Then he heard one more and that was that for him.

 

 

So I walk up the stairs to find this guy, snoozing away in spite of all the murder going on down below. I murdered him.

 

 

Doing that triggered a zombie to fall from the ceiling below me where I had just snuck past.  If her orders were "ambush any human who comes into this room, and BE SURE YOUR GPS IS ON!", then she failed miserably. After she fell I was able to sneak past her (this is not a large room, mind) back into the trailer and wait for her to lose interest. Then got the 6x damage shot.

 

 

Later on the roof, after taking out a vulture and a dog which were visible from the ladder, I had this dude pop out behind me. Did not have GPS on me, he fell to the ground (stumbled out of his hidey hole) and then just stood there looking my way. Got murdered.

 

 

Edited January 31, 2022 by Boidster (see edit history)

[ElDudorino]

1 hour ago, Roland said:

It isn't so cut and dry as you make out because we have another group of players who complain that they have to go back through and search for zombies that never woke up because they cleared the POI in stealth. So some are being too successful at stealth and others are being too much of failures at stealth.

That sounds like two symptoms of the same problem, to be honest. If you don't trigger the "Drop from the ceiling" ambush you would never find those zombies. Running through making as much noise as possible seems to be the "correct" approach based on that.

 

Here's one way to look at it: Are there any PoIs higher than tier 1 with *no* ambushes? Because the expectation is that ambushes would just be an occasional thing. But to be honest, I've been conditioned to expect a jump scare in every room now, so whether it's 11/12 spawns or not, I definitely feel like ambushes are extremely overdone.

Edited January 31, 2022 by ElDudorino (see edit history)

[Laz Man]

12 hours ago, Scyris said:

Office_03 (I think it was 03)

Another Poi where every single sleeper volume is a ambush, including one in the loot room, where a zombie literally spawns right beside you on the right once you walk in, allowing it a free hit on you no mnatter how fast you are. Also has multiple volumes with zombies falling from the cieling, or coming out of the walls which is just stupid, and looks silly as hell, its also @%$#-poor game design as well. Once in a while is fine, but ambushes and stuff like cieling dropping zombies should be much rarer than they are.

 

Do you have a screenshot of where that zombie that spawn besides you is?  I don't see anything where this is obvious.  Also, not all of the volumes are configured to attack, but do understand why you feel that way given the small size of that POI (T2) and the couple of attack encounters that are setup there.

Edited January 31, 2022 by Laz Man (see edit history)

[Ornias]

There a few rooms that you drop into from above that will not spawn until you drop into the room. This is annoying. Again went full strength and just barge on through. 

[Sal]

I got nothing to add here expect that you guys are far more careful than my reckless self is.  I just go in guns a blazin so I would never pick up on things like this (which is also probably why I die more often too lol).

5 minutes ago, Ornias said:

There a few rooms that you drop into from above that will not spawn until you drop into the room. This is annoying. Again went full strength and just barge on through. 

Like the tier 3 clothing store where the main loot is. No matter how close you try to get to the floor from the ducts and/or shoot to wake em up, the Z's wont spawn in until you touch ground.

Edited January 31, 2022 by Sal (see edit history)

[Roland]

31 minutes ago, ElDudorino said:

That sounds like two symptoms of the same problem, to be honest. If you don't trigger the "Drop from the ceiling" ambush you would never find those zombies. Running through making as much noise as possible seems to be the "correct" approach based on that.

 

Here's one way to look at it: Are there any PoIs higher than tier 1 with *no* ambushes? Because the expectation is that ambushes would just be an occasional thing. But to be honest, I've been conditioned to expect a jump scare in every room now, so whether it's 11/12 spawns or not, I definitely feel like ambushes are extremely overdone.

 

Could be two sides of the same coin of a problem. But then if you look at Boidster's post right above you, there also seems to be evidence that just because zombies drop out of ceilings or fall out of closets that it isn't necessarily an ambush. Yes, their appearance using physics rather than spawn is sudden BUT stealth is still intact. The zombies aren't aware of your location and you can still stealth kill them even though they aren't asleep.

 

I'll grant that there isn't always a way to know for sure that they don't see you other than remaining calm and crouched and see what they do after they get up from their ragdoll. (I guess you could throw a rock and see if they go for it rather than just wait with veins of ice to see if they walk past you or come at you) I, myself, have experienced that they do not always move to attack you right away. We are all using the word "ambush" but what does an ambush really mean? Is it an ambush if they aren't targeting you when they fall to the ground?

 

So I guess the real question is: Do we as gamers really just want them to stay asleep when we stealth and take that as the only sign that we were successful in our stealthiness or do we feel okay with being stealthy vs awake opponents that move around? It is a new system so there is going to be a learning curve but if we do learn that in 11/12 rooms some zombies will wake up but not necessarily know where you are and if you don't panic and can maintain your stealth and can still kill them with stealth bonuses is that a bad thing?

 

What is it we are really wanting? Stealth gameplay or unconscious enemies?

[ElDudorino]

3 minutes ago, Roland said:

So I guess the real question is: Do we as gamers really just want them to stay asleep when we stealth and take that as the only sign that we were successful in our stealthiness or do we feel okay with being stealthy vs awake opponents that move around?

My ideal would be like 10-20% sleeping in random but not sneaky spots, 77-87% moving around, and 3% hiding - in places a zombie (or someone soon to turn) could reach. This could include the occasional closet but not like all the closets. 0% hiding in unreachable ceiling tiles would be nice.

[Roland]

1 hour ago, Viktoriusiii said:

But we general players do not know how that works.

 

That's what I'm here for and I always appreciate it when someone is happy to learn that what they thought was happening was not what was actually happening and then go back and test with that new knowledge. As I said, I understand that it doesn't feel right and I agree that it doesn't feel right and needs more work. But we can help that work better coming at the problem from the correct starting point.

 

1 hour ago, Viktoriusiii said:

And I can tell you: I didn't even know A19 had auto-wake up rooms.

 

Interesting...I could have sworn you participated in some of those threads.

 

1 hour ago, Viktoriusiii said:

A20 is the first alpha where I actually don't bother going sneaking in pois anymore (started a game with friends).

 

I do and I am successful at stealth (even unperked) quite a bit but definitely not most of the time. But now that I read Boidster's experience I am going to have some rocks on my belt and test throwing whenever zombies wake up to see how often it is that they don't know I'm there. In my own opinion, I think it is alright for zombies to wake up and move around if they aren't automatically always gpsing on the player and if people have had the misconception that an awake zombie is always aware of the player and acting on that before ever finding out whether it was true or not, then absolutely it can feel like every room is ambush. 

 

But I also realize that some players are going to prefer that the zombies don't ever wake up regardless of how aware they are of the player. Shooting them while they are sleeping is what "feels" most like stealth to them.

6 minutes ago, ElDudorino said:

My ideal would be like 10-20% sleeping in random but not sneaky spots, 77-87% moving around, and 3% hiding - in places a zombie (or someone soon to turn) could reach. This could include the occasional closet but not like all the closets. 0% hiding in unreachable ceiling tiles would be nice.

 

For the 77-87% moving around is it okay if they go from dormant to moving around where you can witness that change happening? Or do you prefer them to already be moving around before you get to their area?

[Kyonshi]

1 hour ago, Viktoriusiii said:

But we general players do not know how that works.
We can only tell you how it FEELS like. (which is also a very important feedback).

And I can tell you: I didn't even know A19 had auto-wake up rooms.
A20 it feels like every room is an auto-wake up even with insane sneaking skills.

Well, feelings are a subjective interpretation of something, therefore it isn't a factual reference. The importance that feelings should gain regarding concepts that require factual and technical data to be fixed, if there's a need to, is largely debatable.

 

Case in point, I'm an avid stealth player. I actually have a hard time playing otherwise, my immersive process demands to play stealthy like 95% of the time. I have a solid certitude that no, not all rooms are auto-wake up. This is a laughable exaggeration. If things would have been like you described them, I would have never bothered putting points in that skill.

 

I do come across rooms that are an inevitable trigger for Zs, but for a vast amount of time I spend playing, I can handle most of my possible stealth kills with success, with proper and careful precautions. This has been debated during A19 and I think it was Roland that once said that this isn't a pure stealth game and players should consider that you can't breeze your way with 100% stealth kills because that's something the designers don't wanna see. But they're also determined to make a stealth approach totally enjoyable for those who choose this path.

 

Now, of course this feature isn't perfect and I think that the part of the community that judges too hard should check their own perceptions before stating there's something wrong with the stealth mechanics like it's a fact. This isn't Splinter Cell, Tenchu or Thief and with the millions of possible interactions and conflicts the technical design of 7DTD generates, it's a colossal task to set up a feature that's stable enough for the eventual finished gold game.

Edited January 31, 2022 by Kyonshi (see edit history)

[Laz Man]

12 hours ago, Shelgeyr said:

And what has prevented them from falling through the ceiling up til now?

 

I understand the "this isn't real life" argument, but some things are harder to ignore.

For me, zombies packed neatly into shipping crates, hidden behind false walls, and chilling out above the ceiling tiles is a bit of a stretch.

 

I think monster closets and drop ceilings can be believable as long as they are not overused and the environment supports it.

 

For example, zombies dropping in from a ceiling from a compromised 2nd floor or a zombie falling from a ceiling vent and the player later runs across where the person / zombie possibly crawled in from.

 

 

Edited February 1, 2022 by Laz Man (see edit history)

[ElDudorino]

49 minutes ago, Roland said:

For the 77-87% moving around is it okay if they go from dormant to moving around where you can witness that change happening? Or do you prefer them to already be moving around before you get to their area?

Either is fine. What makes sense to me is kind of a combination of the two. It is, after all, the behavior I'd expect from the sleepers, instead of them staying dormant even when I shoot the wall next to them but getting up as soon as I cross an invisible line.

 

For me, sleepers aren't necessary at all for a good stealth experience, though I think their existence is kind of cool and atmospheric. I'd be happy with a building full of zombies wandering around and I'd have to figure out their behavior or find a good hiding spot, or snipe them, to avoid notice. Maybe I peek in through a hole in the ceiling and pick a few off that way, get a few more through some open windows, etc.

[asmosnuts]

     I think the spawning in after you enter the room is a much bigger problem. Stealth is still viable, not all triggered zs gps to you, often moving a few steps away is enough to end their search for you. Yes there are some hairy moments when a group of ferals run at you. But the interest would soon wane if you could just crawl through every poi not alerting anything.

    You may need to think differently at times and be more careful in some situations, at least the game is engaging again! Some randomness would help rather than facing the same enemies in the same positions in the same buildings ad infinitum.

   Other than that there are a lot more positives , imho, than there have been in quite a while.

[Laz Man]

1 hour ago, asmosnuts said:

     I think the spawning in after you enter the room is a much bigger problem. Stealth is still viable, not all triggered zs gps to you, often moving a few steps away is enough to end their search for you. Yes there are some hairy moments when a group of ferals run at you. But the interest would soon wane if you could just crawl through every poi not alerting anything.

    You may need to think differently at times and be more careful in some situations, at least the game is engaging again! Some randomness would help rather than facing the same enemies in the same positions in the same buildings ad infinitum.

   Other than that there are a lot more positives , imho, than there have been in quite a while.

 

Agreed.  Keep those POI reports coming everyone so level design can at least take a look at specific setups.  I will look at the Tier 3 clothing store loot room in a bit to see if I can see any improvements for the designer to consider.