Traders should be open all night

[Zengrath]

I created a thread about this which only got two replies, but I see no downsides to this. here is what I wrote there. I think people saying just use mods are missing a big point here. There is massive potential to nighttime content being more of a thing in the base game, here are my points.  Also, the argument of it being a game balance issue like being able to hide at a trader makes no sense, I'm arguing that it's only for non-horde nights since you can hide literally anywhere in the game on a non-horde night and be safe all night simply be standing still/crouching. And being in a trader all night is worst then your own base as you can't build things, break down things, etc. and they even removed working workbenches at traders so what's point in staying at a trader instead of your base at night? There really no downside. I believe some people are confusing horde night with normal nights, I'm proposing only normal nights. 

 

With alpha 20 introducing night missions and especially offering multiple night missions a day. It only makes more sense than ever to change this behavior, so traders are open at night. However, I believe an exception is horde night. This would make horde nights even more special given that this is only night traders are closed and making horde nights have a bit more of the oh @%$# its horde night feeling as the trader kicks you out. It would make traders more accessible on normal nights for running multiple night mission and possibly opening up more night missions in future updates. The introduction of night missions would be a good time to do this as it would encourage players to go out raiding at night due to the extra missions during this time and maybe we could see more dangerous and rewarding night missions in the future to further encourage night raiding to offset the balance of opening traders at night. I could see this in later alpha's becoming a cool new meta for the game for the braver players thinking along the lines of Dying Light for example as night missions are far more dangerous and scarier but comes with better rewards to encourage brave players to attempt them, I'm sure any dying light fans here can agree that Dying Light handles night time amazingly well as far as scaring the crap out of you and giving you big bump in difficulty, it's an experience I've never had in any other game and wouldn't mind seeing something on that line come to 7DTD other than just faster zombies. With the addition of the lootstage function this could possibly even lead to these special harder and crazier night missions giving an additional bump to lootstages too, it just feels right like this could all work with all these new additions to Alpha 20. 

 

To recap or put in easier to read bullet points:

* Opening up traders now that players have access to nighttime missions would actually encourage more nighttime runs, pushing players out of their comfort zone.

* Keeping traders locked down during horde night would make horde nights more special, giving more impact to the intensity of a horde night as trader kicks you out.

* Future updates to include more difficult and rewarding night missions would further encourage players to brave the night for better rewards but at a higher risk

* Nighttime missions could utilize the new lootstage function by adding an additional bump to lootstage during night missions to encourage yet again more nighttime raiding

* Further into future alpha's this could lead to an amazing new meta of new and interesting night missions mechanics adding more danger and excitement to night missions with increased reward for the risk, aka sort of like the intensity of Dying Light night missions have. 

 

Edited December 18, 2021 by Zengrath (see edit history)

[BarryTGash]

Here's an alternative: have a bulletin board outside trader outposts that you can accept new quests from at any time, day or night. You are still required to visit the trader personally, when they're open, to cash in those completed quests. Perhaps this way you could accept more than 1 quest at a time and bank up rewards from completed quests that you turn in when you go back on restock day?

Edited December 18, 2021 by BarryTGash (see edit history)

[Zengrath]

On 12/18/2021 at 2:09 AM, BarryTGash said:

Here's an alternative: have a bulletin board outside trader outposts that you can accept new quests from at any time, day or night. You are still required to visit the trader personally, when they're open, to cash in those completed quests. Perhaps this way you could accept more than 1 quest at a time and bank up rewards from completed quests that you turn in when you go back on restock day?

 

I was going to literally just post this suggestion since people seem to not like the idea of traders open at night on non-horde nights even though i don't see much wrong with it, a bulletin board would be a great alternative where you can continue to pick up missions at night and maybe turn them all in at once when the trader opens up. This would still have similar benefits and open up the game to a more interesting nighttime meta in future updates. Again, I'm thinking something on the line of the dying light games as far as night-based missions could be. 

[Lenny Lettuce Lips]

On 12/17/2021 at 11:09 PM, BarryTGash said:

Here's an alternative: have a bulletin board outside trader outposts that you can accept new quests from at any time, day or night. You are still required to visit the trader personally, when they're open, to cash in those completed quests. Perhaps this way you could accept more than 1 quest at a time and bank up rewards from completed quests that you turn in when you go back on restock day?

I really like this idea, because there are times where we focus on exclusively grinding for money or getting the next tier in quests and sometimes we get back JUST too late. 

 

I was literally just thinking this on my drive home that traders should be open all day and close for horde day or maybe a few hours before the horde starts so you can't camp out inside. I'd take the trade of open 24/7 until horde day then they're shut all day. Works since they always restock on horde day too, so it'd have a little story type element. 

[8_Hussars]

Meh

All Traders Open All Night really does is simplify some arbitrary time management skills and game balance decisions TFPs built into the game, making playing ostensibly easier.

All the OPs suggestions are great however none of them need the trader open at night other than to get or turn in a quest, a matter of convenience.  Closed on Horde day may work however that's a bit of a give away if you are playing random hordes no notification.   I am sure there is a way around that hurdle but not everyone plays to scheduled 7 day hordes.

There is no good reason not to do it, but then again there is no good game play or game mechanic reason to do it.  (Obviously, there are mods for it)

[Limdood]

On 12/17/2021 at 10:23 AM, pApA^LeGBa said:

And you can always spawn in a trader in your base without even needing a mod. 

 

Rather than create an entirely new thread to ask a question that's probably been answered (but my quick search didn't find anything), How exactly do you spawn in a trader NPC in your base?

(I'm assuming cheat mode and a certain command to spawn one @player position or at specified coordinates...but I don't know what the command is)

[Whiteshark68]

7 minutes ago, Limdood said:

Rather than create an entirely new thread to ask a question that's probably been answered (but my quick search didn't find anything), How exactly do you spawn in a trader NPC in your base?

(I'm assuming cheat mode and a certain command to spawn one @player position or at specified coordinates...but I don't know what the command is)

You press f1 type in dm then press enter then press f1 again then you press f6 which brings up the spawn console you select the trader you want to spawn and there you are just remember to press f1 again and type in dm again to get out of debug mode

[Limdood]

10 minutes ago, Whiteshark68 said:

You press f1 type in dm then press enter then press f1 again then you press f6 which brings up the spawn console you select the trader you want to spawn and there you are just remember to press f1 again and type in dm again to get out of debug mode

Thank you, kind skeleton!

[ricp]

I'll be honest, @Kage848, I don't agree. For me, the traders are already OP. They've removed the working benches, and forge, which I agree with, but they need seriously balanced, and seemingly balance for both SP and MP differently. What would be interesting is that different traders open at different times, just to shake things up, they would all still have a "shutdown period" though.

 

As I've never actually spoken "directly" to you, bud, could I just thank you for your content on YT.

 

 

 

Completely unrelated, and no dig at Kage, I'd really like to see the "change my mind" meme removed from the meme library purely because the "joke" is Crowder is a racist piece of s**t (happy to show examples) and he never changes his mind about it.

[Krougal]

Ok, so I don't know why this is such a point of contention, if people want to sit and cower in the trader all night they should be able to.

 

Other than Roland's point of possibly getting stuck and unable to suicide (or potentially get your gear back as well) I don't see any cons to allowing it by default, especially since the crafting stations are all broken (which I feel was a good change).

 

I mean what if I need to AFK but I don't want to log out? Granted except for hosting a game for your friends and needing an extended AFK is about the only really pressing case for why you wouldn't just logout, but it's there.

 

Depending on your settings you are losing 15 minutes minimum of productivity sitting in the trader all night. Even on night 1 I am not sitting in a POI with my thumb up my ass, I am generally mining in the basement and if it has been a really good first day already smelting & crafting. By night 4 I am doing construction on my base. After 1st horde I am cautiously going out more and more at night, by the time I am doing t3 & 4 quests I am likely staying out all hours, t5 for sure since they take so @%$#ing long to do. In fact it becomes a real inconvenience having to wait for the trader to open so I can sell @%$# and get a new quest, forget about hanging out there, I want to conduct my business and be on my way.

 

If some people want to sit in the trader all night like @%$# let them. Even on horde night. Seriously. Even on a MP server I can't see what the fuss is. If you want to hide and miss out on tons of XP and loot then that's your business.

[8_Hussars]

2 hours ago, Krougal said:

Stuff

I do not believe the intent of the proposed change was to hide in the trader.  The intent was to have access to the trader 24/7 as well as some other suggestions.

 

[Krougal]

3 minutes ago, 8_Hussars said:

I do not believe the intent of the proposed change was to hide in the trader.  The intent was to have access to the trader 24/7 as well as some other suggestions.

 

I know, but the main argument against that always seems to be because people will use the trader to hide.

I mean it's not like they didn't give us the option to turn horde nights off altogether anyway.

 

Granted another big one is "OMG Trader is OP! Why isn't it nerfed???"

I don't think the trader is OP, I think the rest of the game was nerfed by the trader, because that seems to be how The Dungeon Crawl Pimps want us to play the game now.

You gets your quest and you follows the path layed out for you in the POI (the light! go to the light!), don't deviate, ignore those locked doors, do what yer told, come back and get your reward. Rinse and repeat. Do not enter those POIs without a quest marker directing you to do so!

 

 

 

[BFT2020]

Those poor traders.  We already have them working from 6 in the morning to 22 at night.  But we can't give them 8 hours for themselves, we just want them to stay open 24/7 for our convenience    😁

[Silverjohn]

You could stay in the trader post but you have to pay rent.  Certain amount of money based on your level.

[astynax777]

On 12/20/2021 at 11:16 AM, ricp said:

I'll be honest, @Kage848, I don't agree. For me, the traders are already OP. They've removed the working benches, and forge, which I agree with, but they need seriously balanced, and seemingly balance for both SP and MP differently. What would be interesting is that different traders open at different times, just to shake things up, they would all still have a "shutdown period" though.

 

As I've never actually spoken "directly" to you, bud, could I just thank you for your content on YT.

 

When you say they are unbalance, are you referring to their secret stash combined with the intellect tree?  I agree it's pretty OP when you perk into the secret stash.  I almost never go secret stash, but with the latest update, the progression of the loot is so fixed to the loot+game stage that it seems it's impossible to get anything way beyond your level.  We've been trying for a few weeks to get rad remover mods/schematics but haven't seen them once at any of the 6 traders around us.  I guess it just depends on luck.

 

Now if the traders were randomly open - you might make one or more 6K trip for nothing and that'd seriously @%$# people off.  Time and gas are luxuries in this game early on.  Now if there were some sort of event that would signify a shutdown (like a mist passing through town that increases zombies), that'd be cool.

 

You've got good taste in Let's Play YouTubers there I see.  Props.  Kage is awesome.

 

On 12/20/2021 at 11:16 AM, ricp said:

Completely unrelated, and no dig at Kage, I'd really like to see the "change my mind" meme removed from the meme library purely because the "joke" is Crowder is a racist piece of s**t (happy to show examples) and he never changes his mind about it.

Why was this added other than to add controversy and show you support censorship? GTFOH with that B.S. please.

[BFT2020]

I made some changes to the trader times and loving it.  Day 1 slowly make my time into town and reach the trader at 1600 hours only for him to close shop (I set Hugh to be 0400 to 1600.  If I had found Jen instead, she would have still been open as her hours are 0800 to 2000.   It does make a difference in how you manage your time since they open/close at different times and not opened as long.

8 hours ago, astynax777 said:

Why was this added other than to add controversy and show you support censorship? GTFOH with that B.S. please.

Asking people not to promote hatred is not censorship, it’s called decency.

[ricp]

16 hours ago, astynax777 said:

When you say they are unbalance...

 

All of it, to be honest. The only "positive" from my viewpoint is that they don't have working benches, forges, and the like, and neither does the wilder world. A significant improvement for me. The traders throughout the game, both early and late, are massively OP in the current alpha.

 

16 hours ago, astynax777 said:

Why was this added other than to add controversy and show you support censorship? GTFOH with that B.S. please.

 

I presume you have not actually listened to any Crowder then? The man is a straight up bigot and is unapologetic about that. You might be comfortable with that, and consider telling people who are racist not to be racist as some sort of censorship, many people are not and would consider your response nothing but enablement. If you have listened to any of this content, then it should be clear that there is no debate to be had here, it's a binary issue, not open to interpretation. He really is that explicit.

 

 

 

Edited December 31, 2021 by ricp (see edit history)

[astynax777]

1 hour ago, ricp said:

 

All of it, to be honest. The only "positive" from my viewpoint is that they don't have working benches, forges, and the like, and neither does the wilder world. A significant improvement for me. The traders throughout the game, both early and late, are massively OP in the current alpha.

 

 

What exactly makes them OP then?  Should they not sell anything but components?  Maybe they should have a chance to have one fully-built item?  I could go many weeks in game not being able to find the schematic I need in bookshelves/boxes if I'm not going intellect build.  The traders are a nice balance for that IMO.

 

1 hour ago, ricp said:

I presume you have not actually listened to any Crowder then? The man is a straight up bigot and is unapologetic about that. You might be comfortable with that, and consider telling people who are racist not to be racist as some sort of censorship, many people are not and would consider your response nothing but enablement. If you have listened to any of this content, then it should be clear that there is no debate to be had here, it's a binary issue, not open to interpretation. He really is that explicit.

 

I have in the past but haven't for a while, but I assume you and I would have different definitions what what "racist" actually means.  But again - I'm not here to argue about this with you. This is a zombie survival game forum.  Stay on topic and keep that b.s. outta here.

[Krougal]

9 hours ago, BFT2020 said:

I made some changes to the trader times and loving it.  Day 1 slowly make my time into town and reach the trader at 1600 hours only for him to close shop (I set Hugh to be 0400 to 1600.  If I had found Jen instead, she would have still been open as her hours are 0800 to 2000.   It does make a difference in how you manage your time since they open/close at different times and not opened as long.

Asking people not to promote hatred is not censorship, it’s called decency.

No, it's censorship. Freedom of speech counts most when it is applied to people you disagree with. I understand many of you here are non-Americans and don't value Freedom of Speech. Hell many Americans no longer value it. They will when it's completely gone though.

 

1 hour ago, ricp said:

 

All of it, to be honest. The only "positive" from my viewpoint is that they don't have working benches, forges, and the like, and neither does the wilder world. A significant improvement for me. The traders throughout the game, both early and late, are massively OP in the current alpha.

 

 

I presume you have not actually listened to any Crowder then? The man is a straight up bigot and is unapologetic about that. You might be comfortable with that, and consider telling people who are racist not to be racist as some sort of censorship, many people are not and would consider your response nothing but enablement. If you have listened to any of this content, then it should be clear that there is no debate to be had here, it's a binary issue, not open to interpretation. He really is that explicit.

 

 

 

For one thing I had no idea who this guy is other than a stupid meme. I honestly still don't know or care who he is and I've seen this meme plenty of times.

Certainly not enough to go listen to him. Considering the ridiculous things that are called racist these days, it is not a binary non-debatable issue, and as far as I know you are just some guy on the internet virtue-signaling.

5 minutes ago, astynax777 said:

 

What exactly makes them OP then?  Should they not sell anything but components?  Maybe they should have a chance to have one fully-built item?  I could go many weeks in game not being able to find the schematic I need in bookshelves/boxes if I'm not going intellect build.  The traders are a nice balance for that IMO.

 

 

I have in the past but haven't for a while, but I assume you and I would have different definitions what what "racist" actually means.  But again - I'm not here to argue about this with you. This is a zombie survival game forum.  Stay on topic and keep that b.s. outta here.

Too true.

[ricp]

5 minutes ago, astynax777 said:

...but I assume you and I would have different definitions what what "racist" actually means. 

 

It would seem so, you are using a subjective and anecdotal assumption of what it should be while I take guidance from the well known tenets defining what is and isn't racist, expanded in detail over centuries by those who have studied this subject in depth, and done so by people with far far greater understanding and experience than either you or I.

 

So, yes, you are right, we do have "different definitions" however the idea you think that people suggesting we shouldn't promote racists is somehow "b.s." suggests far more about your interpretation than mine.

 

1 minute ago, Krougal said:

Considering the ridiculous things that are called racist these days, it is not a binary non-debatable issue, and as far as I know you are just some guy on the internet virtue-signaling.

 

So just to be correct, you have absolutely no knowledge of the subject and have made no attempts to find out, but you are absolutely certain I am somehow chastising someone wrongly? As I pointed out above, this isn't a subjective call or anecdotal evidence, this is scientifically presented, peer reviewed and overwhelmingly accepted actions identified as being racist.

 

The reason I mentioned him was the meme is based around him, it is time we stopped indirectly promoting a racist. It really is as simple as that and if you think that is virtue-signaling, despite you admitting your ignorance on the subject, then perhaps you should ponder on your justification for thinking that.

 

 

These will be my final words on the matter. If you think Crowder is not racist then it's quite simple, you are wrong and wrong in the full technical academic sense, not just because I think you are wrong. However I will not continue to debate the subject, as the point I am making is very clear and doesn't need either repeating or emphasised.

[Krougal]

30 minutes ago, ricp said:

 

It would seem so, you are using a subjective and anecdotal assumption of what it should be while I take guidance from the well known tenets defining what is and isn't racist, expanded in detail over centuries by those who have studied this subject in depth, and done so by people with far far greater understanding and experience than either you or I.

 

So, yes, you are right, we do have "different definitions" however the idea you think that people suggesting we shouldn't promote racists is somehow "b.s." suggests far more about your interpretation than mine.

 

 

So just to be correct, you have absolutely no knowledge of the subject and have made no attempts to find out, but you are absolutely certain I am somehow chastising someone wrongly? As I pointed out above, this isn't a subjective call or anecdotal evidence, this is scientifically presented, peer reviewed and overwhelmingly accepted actions identified as being racist.

 

The reason I mentioned him was the meme is based around him, it is time we stopped indirectly promoting a racist. It really is as simple as that and if you think that is virtue-signaling, despite you admitting your ignorance on the subject, then perhaps you should ponder on your justification for thinking that.

 

 

These will be my final words on the matter. If you think Crowder is not racist then it's quite simple, you are wrong and wrong in the full technical academic sense, not just because I think you are wrong. However I will not continue to debate the subject, as the point I am making is very clear and doesn't need either repeating or emphasised.

My aren't we smug. You must be a young person to speak with such authority on social issues.

You're not getting the point, I simply don't care. I don't care who the guy is or what his beliefs are.

The guy is a meme to me and that is all he will ever be. Nothing more, nothing less. His impact on my life is nil.

He isn't even a very good meme, he doesn't merit a laugh or even a smile when I see him.

According to you I should either waste my time researching someone who I don't care about OR take your expert opinion and judge him guilty and ban him. Either way though you are the one drawing attention to him and indirectly promoting him, because otherwise nobody would have taken any notice and we wouldn't be discussing this guy who outside of being a half-assed meme is likely a nobody.

I bet you buy into all the Marxist bull@%$# being pushed right now too.

Edited December 31, 2021 by Krougal (see edit history)

[astynax777]

12 minutes ago, ricp said:

 

It would seem so, you are using a subjective and anecdotal assumption of what it should be while I take guidance from the well known tenets defining what is and isn't racist, expanded in detail over centuries by those who have studied this subject in depth, and done so by people with far far greater understanding and experience than either you or I.

 

So, yes, you are right, we do have "different definitions" however the idea you think that people suggesting we shouldn't promote racists is somehow "b.s." suggests far more about your interpretation than mine.

 

I never said what definition I subscribe to so how the hell would you know?  The B.S. I was referring to was bringing political controversy to this forum which it appears you just can't let go of and have to keep pushing.  GTFOH with that B.S.

[ricp]

Deary me people, what a mess those two answers are. Nobody bothered with my factual comment until you two decided get offended by it, but the bottom line is I've said my piece, and I do not feel the need to explain any further. Anyone not getting it, is intentionally not getting it and that's just something they need to reconcile with themselves, not me.

 

:

:

 

Moving on, and as for the topic, the traders are OP just now because in literally 2 days I can have a stack of dukes, a bicycle and have my game stage increased massively compared to previous alphas. This is down to traders. I like that the quests are not miles away now, that is a positive, but the flip side is that you can grind them much easier. With the (seemingly) permanent addition of a bike when you complete a handful of jobs in tier 1, it makes grinding even easier.

 

The removal of the working benches in game (and obvs in traders) is positive, it just seemed contradictory that you were meant to be aiming for a workbench, chem bench, forge and cement mixer, yet on day one you could rock up to a trader that has all of them working. That, imo, is the sort of RNG that "ruins" a playthrough.

 

I don't think traders should be removed, I quite like them and the quests "give you something to do" rather than just sequentially looting across the map, and I like that they've given their bases and the quests a bit of love. I am sure that TFP will try and use them to drive the storyline (if one ever gets included) so I can't see them ever not being in the game.

 

I appreciate that we all suffer from observation bias, and I am just as guilty of that, so perhaps I just have to accept that traders are OP because it balances out the game for those who are less experienced or less competent.

Edited December 31, 2021 by ricp (see edit history)

[astynax777]

13 minutes ago, ricp said:

Deary me people, what a mess those two answers are. Nobody bothered with my factual comment until you two decided get offended by it, but the bottom line is I've said my piece, and I do not feel the need to explain any further. Anyone not getting it, is intentionally not getting it and that's just something they need to reconcile with themselves, not me.

 

 

I appreciate that we all suffer from observation bias, and I am just as guilty of that, so perhaps I just have to accept that traders are OP because it balances out the game for those who are less experienced or less competent.

 

Dude... I just can't even any more.  Such pompous elitism.

[ricp]

1 minute ago, astynax777 said:

 

Dude... I just can't even any more.  Such pompous elitism.

 

So don't say anything then, it's clear we disagree, and your assumption that I am either pompous or elitist for calling out racism is again something you'll need to deal with yourself.

 

Instead, discuss the topic you wanted to. I've provided more detail on the affect A20 trader changes make on character progression. As an experienced player, and I presume you are one too, it's quite noticeable, but I feel it's more accidental than intentional. I don't think TFP realised how easy it would be to grind out the quests when the distances were reduced, and I think the addition of the bike after tier 1 was more a nod to those who were maybe struggling a bit at the start. Those two things, while not "bad" additions to the game, have come together to have a bigger influence than maybe expected.

 

On the flip side, we can turn on Feral Sense which, while not nerfing the trader progression, will slow progression simply due to the number of bodies thrown at you.