Fix Stealth

[ChamplooMusashi]

The stealth system is complete garbage and an utter waste of time investing into. I'm tired of getting "heard" by zombies while mining 30 blocks down on night 1 in the middle of a huge POI and I've purposely mined down 20 blocks but the moment I sniff a vein of iron somehow a zombie that must be at least 40 blocks away from me through nothing but solid stone hears me. Are you serious? Meanwhile I can be clearing a poi smacking absolutely everything and a sleeper 4 blocks away from me doesn't wake up. Oh, and I built a basic fence around the perimeter of the POI I was mining through the middle of so zombies would be as far away as possible from me. At this point I'm convinced if a scout was 100 blocks away and you smacked iron once 1 block above bedrock it would hear you.

 

This is completely ridiculous. Fix the system or just get rid of it because frankly it's just random inconsistent garbage. And if you want players to do absolutely nothing the first night then add sleeping as an option to the bedroll because I'm tired of actually trying to play the game on the first night and getting punished for it no matter what lengths I go to try to have fun. I enjoy the day night system but the way the night scouts have been implemented is not fun. I have attempted to interact with the system and it just ignores anything the player tries to do and says "no, you're not allowed to play the game that way". I looked for mods that fix this but I haven't found any thus far.

[Maharin]

Ultimately, I think if they just had a configuration setting to specify how close zombies need to be to hear/notice players it would be best.  That way the people that want to play with developer approved settings can and those that want to adjust it can do that as well.  Everybody wins, nobody loses.

[ChamplooMusashi]

  

2 minutes ago, Maharin said:

Ultimately, I think if they just had a configuration setting to specify how close zombies need to be to hear/notice players it would be best.  That way the people that want to play with developer approved settings can and those that want to adjust it can do that as well.  Everybody wins, nobody loses.

It's more than just the distance, though. Scout patrols clearly not even interacting with geometry, density, and probably not even distance; all they seem to do is projecting a sphere and seeing if the player is above a noise threshold inside it regardless of the medium in which they would "hear" the player through. Even if it is the effect is so negligible that it's functionally the same as it not existing. It's one thing for zombies to have the ability to hear well and another thing for the system to just be broken as it clearly is. Scouts at least are just ignoring any semblance of stealth interaction for the player.  Some 30-40 solid blocks of underground should muffle anything short of an explosion but as I've said the way it's been implemented it's just checking to see if you're doing certain actions because I mined completely uninterrupted just fine until I started trying to mine iron.

[Roland]

I sympathize with your frustration. For me, spending the first night mining with a stone axe would be the source of frustration. Personally, I like taking over a POI on the first day and I spend the first night gutting the upper floor to create a large common room to put crates, workstations, and my bedroll. Knocking out walls and destroying decorations to completely clear out the upper floor of a POI is vastly more satisfying than hitting a stone block forever to descend one level. Then I start a horde base on Day two and get it to the point where I can work on it safely through the second night. Then I spend all the rest of the days until horde night questing, savaneging, and harvesting and every night working on the horde base from inside it and above it. Once I've progressed in gear and levels enough to make mining worth it (to me) then I spend my nights mining and, yes, I do get visitors but I can easily dispatch them at that point.

 

My nights are full. 

[Maharin]

Again, most of this can be "fixed" by making configurable settings so that players that want it different ways can both be happy.  The problem is more prevalent now because they are still working on the AI for when bandits and other smart NPCs come into the game.  Eventually, the zombies will be dumbed back down, at least I'd bet on that.

[Roland]

Part of the problem is that the OP is talking partially about hearing and partially about heat map. The heat map builds up through activity and then screamers spawn and make their way to the source of what pushed the heat map over the threshold. This has nothing to do with them detecting or hearing the player. Even if hearing was configured by an option, the screamers would still be drawn to the source of the heat for the heat map mechanic.

[Maharin]

But the AI could take all of that into account, including configurable options.  TFP could still make it possible for people to configure how easily the zombies and other AI entities can find/hunt the player.

[Sjustus548]

You're on day 1 so I'm not quite sure how far you could have progressed in the stealth tree or if you've managed to get any of the perk magazines to help with being able to stealth.  Those will greatly help with your ability to keep out of sight of the zombies.  Here are a few suggestions if you are planning on doing some mining and don't want to be bothered by the scouts.  Make sure you are crouching while you are mining.  This will cause you to generate less noise so the zombies won't be able to find you as easily.  I'm not sure you prefer to mine but if it's under a POI then you can have a 1 block wide tunnel leading to your area.  Put a few wooden spikes in that tunnel so any zombies trying to find you will get skewered.  There are plenty of videos out currently that explain in detail how the heat map system works and why you are spawning the scouts.  Hopefully after seeing how the system works you will be able to better manage the scouts.

Also I can't imagine why this frustrates you but digging down 30 blocks, or was it 20 blocks kind of got confused, with a stone axe is perfectly fine.

[meganoth]

Maybe that zombie hasn't found you because of the iron, there may be a large random factor to stealth. I haven't noticed that mining iron immediately draws zombies, I had zombies while digging stone too, and mined iron without any visitor. If I start digging in the first days of the game (not anymore because of the low yield, but in previous alphas), I always made sure I had built a safe escape route (a route that I would hear being breached and could get away or confront the zombie)

 

You might have to accept that nowhere is safe, because that is the ultimate goal of a horror game.

 

[Raveman1000]

I think that stealth in POI is working fine. The only problem I see is the big difference between the spotting range of a sleeper vs a "wanderer". I can easily clear a POI without waking a single sleeper, but I aggro zombies way further that are outside... that doesn't make much sense.

[Danidas]

31 minutes ago, Raveman1000 said:

I think that stealth in POI is working fine. The only problem I see is the big difference between the spotting range of a sleeper vs a "wanderer". I can easily clear a POI without waking a single sleeper, but I aggro zombies way further that are outside... that doesn't make much sense.

The Screamers do not care about you and instead are keyed into activity in a map chunk that is calculated via a mathematical heat map. Each chunk has a 0 to 100 counter that tracks a very wide array of activity in the chunk from breaking blocks to each burning torch to every second a workstation is in use to every shot fired. It's all being logged and counts towards the chunks heat value which naturally goes down on its own over time but if it hits 100 the value resets to 0 and a Screamer is spawned. Which said Screamer will target what ever heat source that raised that chunk value to 100 and will try to path to it to destroy it. Along the away if the Screamer sees you they will scream to magically draw more zombies your way. Which if you fire enough shots killing those zombies to hit 100 again then another Screamer will spawn to investigate.

 

 

[Roland]

@Danidas I believe he is just talking about how outdoor wilderness spawns somehow become aggravated while you are exploring a POI and path inside to find you even though you are not waking anything up inside. This is actually much more apparent if you increase the wilderness spawns. With dozens wandering around outside it doesn't matter how quiet you are inside a POI. It seems that just being in there triggers some unknown zombie sense and they all start coming in to where you are in the house.

 

It is probably the breadcrumb system because they definitely aren't gpsing to you like zombies that are aware of you. You can throw stones and they will go after them but then return once again immediately after investigating the stone.

[Raveman1000]

4 minutes ago, Danidas said:

The Screamers do not care about you and instead are keyed into activity in a map chunk that is calculated via a mathematical heat map. Each chunk has a 0 to 100 counter that tracks a very wide array of activity in the chunk from breaking blocks to each burning torch to every second a workstation is in use to every shot fired. It's all being logged and counts towards the chunks heat value which naturally goes down on its own over time but if it hits 100 the value resets to 0 and a Screamer is spawned. Which said Screamer will target what ever heat source that raised that chunk value to 100 and will try to path to it to destroy it. Along the away if the Screamer sees you they will scream to magically draw more zombies your way. Which if you fire enough shots killing those zombies to hit 100 again then another Screamer will spawn to investigate.

 

 

I was not taking about screamer but wandering zombies. Those wandering zombies spot you from a distance much greater than sleepers zombies through walls and whatnot, even if you're stealthy enough to be right next to a sleeper without waking him.

[Danidas]

1 minute ago, Raveman1000 said:

I was not taking about screamer but wandering zombies. Those wandering zombies spot you from a distance much greater than sleepers zombies through walls and whatnot, even if you're stealthy enough to be right next to a sleeper without waking him.

The Wandering Hordes are randomly spawned at different times in the day and are always targeted at your general location when the game decides to spawn them. Also their is a massive difference between them and Sleepers as their name implies they are asleep aka dormant and need a lot of stimulation to wake up. Mean while the Wandering Hordes who already know your general location are wide awake and at peak sensory performance.

 

Basically at its core this game is about fighting zombies and as a result of how low its minimal system requirements are (potato equivalent by current standards) it only spawns zombies if they have a high chance of fighting the player while eliminating any that have no chance of being fought.

 

[Roland]

I don't think he is talking about "Wandering Hordes". Pretty much just random outdoor spawns of regular zombies.

 

But, by all means, keep talking past him... lmao

[Danidas]

13 minutes ago, Roland said:

I don't think he is talking about "Wandering Hordes". Pretty much just random outdoor spawns of regular zombies.

 

But, by all means, keep talking past him... lmao

I'll do that 😁

 

Although the same applies to them as Wandering Hoards in that they are fully awake zombies with all their senses going while the ones in the POIs are asleep with suppressed senses. Plus due to the fact that Sleepers only exist in a POI after you enter their room/encounter sized cube shaped spawn volume that triggers for them to spawn into the world it kinda changes things a bit. Since Sleepers literally do not exist until your about to enter the specific room they are in and outside zombies exist long before that. Giving them more time to detect the player as they can easy be on your scent trail long before you even cause a Sleeper to spawn into the world.

[Rince]

Well, yes, it's a bit weird when you're in the second floor of a POI, and then a mountain lion and a few de zombies notice you and start trying to get you.

 

The last time happened to me in the apartment building POI. I was hearing the mountain lion and zombies trying to get to me during the whole time. I cleared the building and found them on my way down.

 

And I'm crazy or in the roadmap for the next versions doens't show a new setting to change the 'awareness' of the zombies?

It will help with this kind of things, right? (Or make super frantic if you choose always GPS zombies!)

[meganoth]

14 minutes ago, Rince said:

It will help with this kind of things, right? (Or make super frantic if you choose always GPS zombies!)

Don't think so. Random zombies on the street might still get your breadcrumbs trail and follow it to the house. Only whether they can follow you up the stairs or all bang on the wall of the houses would change.

 

What is surprising about a lion getting the scent of your trail? Any dumb dog can do this in reality and find you from hundreds of meters away. (And if we assume that zombies get heightened senses they might sniff you out as well)

 

[Liesel Weppen]

On 11/11/2020 at 9:07 PM, ChamplooMusashi said:

Oh, and I built a basic fence around the perimeter of the POI I was mining through the middle of so zombies would be as far away as possible from me.

The fence doesn't help anything, it doesn't prevent zombies spawning inside the fence, nor it prevents from zombies walking inside (in theory maybe they don't jump over while not aggroed).

 

But what? You had the time on day 1 to build a fence around a complete poi? So you wasted half the day for building a fence just for being able to mine during night? Just closing all entrances with woodblocks would have been much easier.

 

And how did you know how far away a zombie was, once it heard you? You know zombies wander around, so one could just accidently could walk close to the poi and then heard you.

 

I don't mine on day one, but i do mining later and even during night it is only rarely that a zombie hears me. The most dangerous thing really are wandering hordes. As you usually stay in a close space and wandering hordes afaik spawn somwhere and walk directly to the players position where he was during their spawn, they most likely will walk directly over your mine and then hear you.

 

If you attract 1-2 zombies by accident it shouldn't be that hard to handle, even on day one. Use hatch over your entrance, or close all doors in the poi so that you can hear a zombie before he can reach you. That's called preparation. Since you spent your time to build a fence around a whole POI i guess you do prepare anyway.

 

[DaChibii]

This might be a weird request.... but what if doing a POI quest (and not a challenge quest) it temporarily disabled wandering hordes for the players inside. Yes, I could see some one trying to exploit this, but then they would be giving up both the quest reward, and mobility (they can't leave the POI). Sort of make it a soft instanced area.

[Roland]

Are wandering hordes really happening that often during quests? It's been pretty rare for me and I usually do at least one each day. The problem here is that we don't have enough information from people reporting this issue. Did they mod up their spawns? Did they completely clear the area before going inside? Right now I'm playing pure vanilla so there are very few outdoor zombies and I kill all the nearby ones before starting my quest. I am rarely interrupted.

 

Now, when I modded my outdoor spawns to be 4x vanilla and reduced the spawn mask timer I couldn't finish a single quest without visitors.

 

But nobody is stating what their settings are. Default vanilla settings....I have grave doubts about needing to disable any zomies during quests. The standing complaint is that the world is empty. We can't have complaints about "empty world" AND "too many zombies interrupting my quests all the time"

 

[Raveman1000]

1 hour ago, Roland said:

But nobody is stating what their settings are. Default vanilla settings....I have grave doubts about needing to disable any zomies during quests. The standing complaint is that the world is empty. We can't have complaints about "empty world" AND "too many zombies interrupting my quests all the time"

 

It's not really about being interupted or not, it's about the stealth system that doesn't seam to work properly, or as well, vs wandering zombies. 

 

I don't mind it, it's just weird that I get detected through walls and floors from zombies outside the poi while stealthed. 

[Roland]

15 minutes ago, Raveman1000 said:

It's not really about being interupted or not, it's about the stealth system that doesn't seam to work properly, or as well, vs wandering zombies. 

 

I don't mind it, it's just weird that I get detected through walls and floors from zombies outside the poi while stealthed. 

So what if it isn't you that they are detecting? What if they are picking up your scent and following that which brings them eventually to where you are. You are still under stealth. They don't actually detect you. As I mentioned, I've tested this by throwing rocks out windows and the guys banging on the walls go after the rock. When you are detected and not stealthed and zombies are targeting you, you can throw rocks all you want and they ignore them.

 

The game uses a breadcrumb system by which zombies that cross your "scent" follow the trail to investigate what smells like yummy brains. It has nothing to do with stealth failing. If you head shotted one of those zeds that are following your trail from a crouched position you would still get all your stealth bonuses.

[Ramethzer0]

On 11/11/2020 at 2:50 PM, Roland said:

Part of the problem is that the OP is talking partially about hearing and partially about heat map. The heat map builds up through activity and then screamers spawn and make their way to the source of what pushed the heat map over the threshold. This has nothing to do with them detecting or hearing the player. Even if hearing was configured by an option, the screamers would still be drawn to the source of the heat for the heat map mechanic.

Ohhh, that means the stack of fire barrels trick prolly still works to draw the screamers away.   This is good to know.

 

[Rince]

On 11/13/2020 at 2:19 PM, meganoth said:

Don't think so. Random zombies on the street might still get your breadcrumbs trail and follow it to the house. Only whether they can follow you up the stairs or all bang on the wall of the houses would change.

 

What is surprising about a lion getting the scent of your trail? Any dumb dog can do this in reality and find you from hundreds of meters away. (And if we assume that zombies get heightened senses they might sniff you out as well)

 

Shame.

And if they can trail off by the scent all the way to a third floor of a factory, well, we need to be able to craft soap and a bathtub, because, man, we sure stink.

Which is logical, apocalypse and all.

 

But with their heightened senses I'm surprised that they do not die in the spot, with an exploding head by stinkness shock. Wolves too. And big cats too!

(Oh no! The survivor is deploying a AsT-Field!! *absolute Stink Terror Field!*)