A20 Developer Diary Discussions

[BFT2020]

1 minute ago, Roland said:

 

Yes, and sometimes "Razzle Dazzle!"

No judgment from me; I caught myself saying "Poke Poke" at times when I am kiting a wandering horde with my knife  😉

[bachgaman]

31 minutes ago, Roland said:

Content makers aren't ordinary players.....? Just because they have a camera turned on the game behaves differently for them? Just like any player you will have content makers who exploit and those who play it straight. There is no difference.

They almost always do shows at any cost, otherwise they won't be watched.

 

32 minutes ago, Roland said:

You are basically projecting your own experience and level of play onto everyone else and then refusing to accept any proof that shows what you don't want to see.

 

Let me ask you this: At what level of difficulty can YOU still use any melee weapon as the main one and not die often and without abusing something? Nomad? Warrior? Survivalist? What is the upper limit from your experience where the game starts falling apart. You've already scoffed at Adventurer level so I assume you feel melee weapons are fine at that level but at what point do they stop for you and start requiring abuse in order to make them work?

Man, I don't do perversions, I play with strong ranged weapons, but I try everything. And I see that melee weapons are incomparably worse, it is impossible to survive BM using only melee weapons. I don't think that even at low difficulty levels it is possible without running away and hiding from the horde.

 

Now tell me, at what difficulty level do you play using only melee weapons?

 

In addition, you, as usual, brought the conversation from discussing boring perks to discussing power of weapons. Well done.

33 minutes ago, Roland said:

I know this wasn't directed at me but your proposal could be seen as wanting to nerf other people's challenge. If using melee weapons as the main weapon without abusing anything is truly close to impossible then it forms a high mark to aspire to. If we listen to you and make using melee weapons quite possible at the highest difficulties then for those who are close to that level of skill, we have basically yanked the rug out from beneath them. Buffing up weapons so that YOU can play at the hardest difficulty level with those weapons and feel good about it may very well wreck the experience for someone else who will then be asking for a new difficulty level above insane where melee weapons are truly challenging for them again.

 

I can see how people might feel protective of the current level of challenge in Insane and might want to hinder attempts by one guy who views that level of challenge as impossible to get it changed. It would be like me asking for aim assist to be added to ranged weapons because when I play insane nightmare I just can't line shots up quickly enough without somehow abusing the game and so I deem it impossible and assume that it must be impossible for anyone else as well. Others who can use ranged weapons just fine would probably be aghast at aim assist suddenly being added to the game.

 

Okay, I don't mind, let's vote to weaken the firearm so that it is impossible to play with it on a high level of difficulty. You don't understand where I see the problem. I see it in the fact that at a high level of difficulty, the player has no choice. And you are trying to hurt me with the fact that I am supposedly the only person on earth who cannot cope with the horde on a insane nightmare using a only club

 

[uncle.heavy]

1 hour ago, bachgaman said:

I don’t remember that I ignored someone

I am inclined to take this as a fact as 

Quote

Stop writing to me about someone who using sledgehammer to kill a alone zombie on nightmare difficulty. I do it myself too

this is not what most people have been writing about on the last three pages. @BFT2020 being one of them and beating me to the answer.

Then again, maybe you in fact have a lot of people on ignore and wonder why I am babbling about three pages of "melee rocks" reports.

They had repeatedly stated ( I am so going to quote myself here  )

Quote

There have been reports from enough players stating they are completely fine with melee on difficulties of survivalist and beyond and any Z speed.

and you just went on about how melee is not viable at higher difficulties despite people actually thriving on said difficulties while maining melee weapons.

They had not stated that they pulled out a melee weapon for giggles once and totally owned that lone zombie while barely surviving: they are mainly playing said melee weapon and, again, not only on lower difficulties.

Quote

In that case, even if the developers mentioned it why are you arguing? You want to attack me, instead of supporting rework of truly dead/boring abilities, you attack me about borderline examples and all write same things about the using sledgehammers.

Me, I am not arguing the javelin, just stating that except for javelin master every single other perk out there that directly empowers a given melee weapon does add abilities way beyond the 50% flat damage bonus. I will go so far as to claim that the 50% damage bonus is the least interesting ( sic!) and least empowering of the bonuses that each of the perks directly connected to a melee weapon provides.

This is not accounted for by making the flat 50% bonus a main argument why all melee perks are boring and uninteresting and are in dire need of change.

As said argument only pertains to the javelin. So much for edge cases.

 

Neither have I observed any attacks on you; by me or anyone else. Ok, someone questioned your size, once, but we're all only human here.

And, to be absolutely honest, the calling out pervs and abusers and whatnot has not been directed at you.

 

To be sure, I do not know about the dying frequency of the melee camp but surely they would not take the challenge if they saw absolutely no light at the end of the tunnel. I wouldn't for sure. You wouldn't I think. Real players wouldn't, and even perverts might be discouraged at times.

 

Sorry for adding to the clutter overall.

[Gamida]

This conversation has been going on for so long I expect if I could scroll back to the original poster he would be named Noah. (He double posted )

I have resigned myself to the fact that the game is going to be made the way TFP's wants and I am fine with that (now lol).

The fact is with so many, many different people playing it is impossible to make it the way 100% of us want it. There is always going to be someone who

thinks they can make an improvement in their eyes. And that is ok. Having a forum where you can voice your opinion is great...just don't expect it to change the devs point of view on how

they want it to work.

The thing I like personally is that no matter which way they finally determine the game will go they have, and hopefully will always, allow the players to make major modifications so it is how we

want the game to be. It may not be the perfect way, but at least it is a way. I usually play new releases on vanilla settings for a while then I mod the crap out of it. Hey, it's what makes me happy.

So for now I am enjoying the fact that it is still being added to and when it goes gold and things slow down here I will miss you all....except for Snowdog1942...he creeps me out

As guppy would say, Peace Out.

Edited April 17, 2021 by Gamida (see edit history)

[bachgaman]

33 minutes ago, BFT2020 said:

Yes, I do fight with a bone knife at the beginning until I can get my hands on a higher quality knife.  Yes, I do perk into Deep Cuts.  Combine with Flurry of blows and parkour, I can handle anything outside of a 64 Z bloodmoon horde

So, you could clarify this right away

How do you do it? Let me guess

Are you building some weird structures with zombies stuck in or something like that?

Are you jumping from pole to pole trying to play for time?

 

In any case, i bet it looks something like this. Thus, you "survive" not thanks to melee weapons, but in spite of them. It's like saying that a kettlebell tied to your leg helps you swim, because there are several people who have learned to swim with a kettlebell all their lives and they succeeded

[Roland]

4 minutes ago, bachgaman said:

Man, I don't do perversions, I play with strong ranged weapons, but I try everything. And I see that melee weapons are incomparably worse, it is impossible to survive BM using only melee weapons. I don't think that even at low difficulty levels it is possible without running away and hiding from the horde.

 

Why should horde night be possible only using melee weapons? I would think that Demolishers would be proof to you that the developers have not designed horde nights to be something they want you to be able to solve by swinging a stick around.

 

8 minutes ago, bachgaman said:

Now tell me, at what difficulty level do you play using only melee weapons?

 

I've never in my 7.5 years of playing this game ever wanted to play this game using only melee weapons. I like using combos and on horde night I only ever use melee weapons as a last resort and primarily rely upon ranged weapons. I have no idea at what difficulty level I could survive a horde night engaging the zombies solely with melee weapons. You said it is impossible at Insane. So I'm wondering if you then tried it at a lower level like Survivalist. Also, I'm not the one trying to increase the ability of melee perks.

12 minutes ago, bachgaman said:

In addition, you, as usual, brought the conversation from discussing boring perks to discussing power of weapons. Well done.

 

I did? I only asked what playstyle is impossible at insane difficulty. You could have answered with anything but you chose to go with melee combat. How is it my fault we are talking about weapon power when I left it wide open to you and this is what you gave me to work with? What other playstyle is impossible at insane if you don't want to talk about weapon power? This is your conversation-- I'm just responding to your claims.

18 minutes ago, bachgaman said:

I see it in the fact that at a high level of difficulty, the player has no choice.

 

When the choice you want is contrary to the vision of the developers. that isn't going to change. In the case of melee combat during horde night (which you brought up), the developers will never change the game to  make it so horde night can be won with only a knife or only a bat or only a spear-- and nothing else. That just runs contrary to the design of the game and if they did add interesting perks that could be purchased so that on horde night I could run around with a machete and kill everything around me without dying once at the insane level of difficulty it would make the machete to OP in every other circumstance and when used in conjunction with other weapons.

26 minutes ago, bachgaman said:

And you are trying to hurt me with the fact that I am supposedly the only person on earth who cannot cope with the horde on a insane nightmare using a only club

 

No I'm not. I'm not saying you are the only person on earth who can't do it. I'm just saying that you are probably not the pinnacle of 7 Days to Die player skill and that there may be at least one person on earth who might be better than you. If that thought is too threatening then, of course, we can cease this line of reason. Psyche and ego are important to maintain...

[JCrook1028]

6 hours ago, bachgaman said:

Mining is vital. If you don’t mine resources, then you don’t survive.

Maybe someday you'll realize there are no absolutes in this game. Period. None.

[bachgaman]

5 minutes ago, Roland said:

Why should horde night be possible only using melee weapons? I would think that Demolishers would be proof to you that the developers have not designed horde nights to be something they want you to be able to solve by swinging a stick around.

 

 

I agree that this should not be so, in which case what are you broadcasting to me here? You yourself just wrote that there are geniuses who do this. Ill quote it for you  

1 hour ago, Roland said:

I know this wasn't directed at me but your proposal could be seen as wanting to nerf other people's challenge. If using melee weapons as the main weapon without abusing anything is truly close to impossible then it forms a high mark to aspire to. If we listen to you and make using melee weapons quite possible at the highest difficulties then for those who are close to that level of skill, we have basically yanked the rug out from beneath them. Buffing up weapons so that YOU can play at the hardest difficulty level with those weapons and feel good about it may very well wreck the experience for someone else who will then be asking for a new difficulty level above insane where melee weapons are truly challenging for them again.

 

I can see how people might feel protective of the current level of challenge in Insane and might want to hinder attempts by one guy who views that level of challenge as impossible to get it changed. It would be like me asking for aim assist to be added to ranged weapons because when I play insane nightmare I just can't line shots up quickly enough without somehow abusing the game and so I deem it impossible and assume that it must be impossible for anyone else as well. Others who can use ranged weapons just fine would probably be aghast at aim assist suddenly being added to the game.

 

In my understanding, using a weapon OUTSIDE the horde night is not using a weapon. This is self-indulgence and is not worth spending skill points. Especially when these skills do nothing.

13 minutes ago, Roland said:

I've never in my 7.5 years of playing this game ever wanted to play this game using only melee weapons. I like using combos and on horde night I only ever use melee weapons as a last resort and primarily rely upon ranged weapons. I have no idea at what difficulty level I could survive a horde night engaging the zombies solely with melee weapons.

Same

14 minutes ago, Roland said:

You said it is impossible at Insane. So I'm wondering if you then tried it at a lower level like Survivalist. Also, I'm not the one trying to increase the ability of melee perks.

Of course, I did not do this, but I have enough reason to understand that this is impossible. Perhaps at the easiest difficulty it is possible if you play very well and if you put everything in sustain and clubs / sledgehammers, but I'm not sure

15 minutes ago, Roland said:

I did? I only asked what playstyle is impossible at insane difficulty. You could have answered with anything but you chose to go with melee combat. How is it my fault we are talking about weapon power when I left it wide open to you and this is what you gave me to work with? What other playstyle is impossible at insane if you don't want to talk about weapon power? This is your conversation-- I'm just responding to your claims.

 

First, give me a list of styles so that we can speak same language. You asked this question in the context of a discussion about strenght of melee weapons and I answered in context. Don't try to pretend you didn't mean melee weapons. It looks very stupid

18 minutes ago, Roland said:

When the choice you want is contrary to the vision of the developers. that isn't going to change. In the case of melee combat during horde night (which you brought up), the developers will never change the game to  make it so horde night can be won with only a knife or only a bat or only a spear-- and nothing else. That just runs contrary to the design of the game and if they did add interesting perks that could be purchased so that on horde night I could run around with a machete and kill everything around me without dying once at the insane level of difficulty it would make the machete to OP in every other circumstance and when used in conjunction with other weapons.

 

That's right, now this is situation with grenade launcher. I'm asking for balance, you finally start to understand, albeit with difficulty

19 minutes ago, Roland said:

No I'm not. I'm not saying you are the only person on earth who can't do it. I'm just saying that you are probably not the pinnacle of 7 Days to Die player skill and that there may be at least one person on earth who might be better than you. If that thought is too threatening then, of course, we can cease this line of reason. Psyche and ego are important to maintain...

 

I write about objectively dull and boring perks that do not give anything but small % damage or unnecessary weather protection (which there are no weather penalties), microscopic reduction in hunger (which there are no hunger penalties), a small chance to open a locked chest (which are very few in the game), dig up the treasure a little faster (tasks for which you stop receiving after 2-3 hours of play), two perks that improve unnecessary stealth mode perk on an electric baton, which is generally incomprehensible for what in the game and some others...

 

 

in response, ignoring everything, you write to me something about my skill level and something about the guys who could with a sledgehammer. And you don't try to hurt me, well, well

4 minutes ago, JCrook1028 said:

Maybe someday you'll realize there are no absolutes in this game. Period. None.

 

Can you tell us how you create ammo or build steel base without mining? Oh, you must be jumping on wood poles with a sledgehammer dying to survive 😁

[Roland]

2 minutes ago, bachgaman said:

First, give me a list of styles so that we can speak same language. You asked this question in the context of a discussion about strenght of melee weapons and I answered in context. Don't try to pretend you didn't mean melee weapons. It looks very stupid

 

I intended no such context. Any playstyle you feel is impossible at insane levels please share. Why should I provide a list when I'm not arguing that there are playstyles that are impossible at insane difficulty? That's on you. So please, what playstyle is impossible and don't give me one based on weapon power if you don't want to discuss weapon power because if you do and I respond I don't want to look very stupid again...

5 minutes ago, bachgaman said:

you finally start to understand, albeit with difficulty

er....thanks....

6 minutes ago, bachgaman said:

And you don't try to hurt me, well, well

EIther you are hyper-sensitive or the language barrier is too high.

 

Or both.

[JCrook1028]

6 minutes ago, bachgaman said:

 

Can you tell us how you create ammo or build steel base without mining? Oh, you must be jumping on wood poles with a sledgehammer dying to survive

Who says you even need a permanent base? There are many people who play this game nomad style. Personally? I play Walking dead style. Warrior difficulty but my zombies always walk, That's just my belief on zombies, they do not run.

[Roland]

 

18 minutes ago, bachgaman said:

two perks that improve unnecessary stealth mode perk on an electric baton

 

What are you referring to here?

[bachgaman]

31 minutes ago, Roland said:

I intended no such context. Any playstyle you feel is impossible at insane levels please share. Why should I provide a list when I'm not arguing that there are playstyles that are impossible at insane difficulty? That's on you. So please, what playstyle is impossible and don't give me one based on weapon power if you don't want to discuss weapon power because if you do and I respond I don't want to look very stupid again...

Let's start with the fact that I did not use the phrase "play style". You must give a list of styles because I do not understand what style means in your understanding.

 

Second, I have already given a list of useless and alomst useless perks for a high level of difficulty (difficulty where player should treat the choice of skills wisely, and not improve the first thing he saw)

31 minutes ago, Roland said:

EIther you are hyper-sensitive or the language barrier is too high.

 

Or both.

If a person maliciously deviates from the subject of discussion and transfers the discussion into personalities, then he tries to offend the interlocutor. I see no other reason.

17 minutes ago, Roland said:

What are you referring to here?

 

On 4/16/2021 at 4:41 PM, bachgaman said:

Hidden Strike

From The Shadows

All stealth should be removed from the game for obvious reasons

In quests, you cannot use stealth due to trigger traps

In bloody moon, zombies always see you

Outside of quests and a blood moon, you hardly have any problems with zombies at all

 

Electrocutioner

Same as Javelin Master

Here I mean the fact that electrical stun batons are a very weak weapon of incomprehensible purpose. And the fact that the stealth mode does not really fit into mechanics of the game. I don't mind being able to crouch and crawl past the biker zombie at the start of the game. But have ability improving this opportunity? What for? Someone wrote that thanks to this he kills sleepers with a crossbow, well, alodisments to this person. But I would rather throw a pipe bomb or do a headshot with a 44 magnum with no stealth and no unnecessary waste of skillpoints

Edited April 17, 2021 by bachgaman (see edit history)

[bachgaman]

27 minutes ago, JCrook1028 said:

Who says you even need a permanent base? There are many people who play this game nomad style. Personally? I play Walking dead style. Warrior difficulty but my zombies always walk, That's just my belief on zombies, they do not run.

 

The discussion is about the difficult game, not the near-creative mode

 

I do not know what to answer you, are you playing in a mode where you just can go away from the bloody moon horde? Probably also with an overflowing inventory? 

Well, I know, I can answer that in creative mode I can withstand any blood moon wave without weapons at all and without moving btw

 

Of course, with sparing difficulty settings, you can neglect strong abilities for the sake of weak ones, this does not make strong abilities crap in any way

Edited April 17, 2021 by bachgaman (see edit history)

[Jost Amman]

14 minutes ago, bachgaman said:

Here I mean the fact that electrical stun batons are a very weak weapon of incomprehensible purpose. And the fact that the stealth mode does not really fit into mechanics of the game. I don't mind being able to crouch and crawl past the biker zombie at the start of the game. But have ability improving this opportunity? What for? Someone wrote that thanks to this he kills sleepers with a crossbow, well, alodisments to this person. But I would rather throw a pipe bomb or do a headshot with a 44 magnum with no stealth and no unnecessary waste of skillpoints

My friend. It's evident you're a Min-Maxer, and you're not even aware of that... 

[Roland]

 

 

36 minutes ago, bachgaman said:

Let's start with the fact that I did not use the phrase "play style". You must give a list of styles because I do not understand what style means in your understanding.

 

Yes you most definitely did. Here is the quoted proof with nothing altered.

 

5 hours ago, bachgaman said:

The fact that some "playstyles" are only available only at low difficulty suggests that there is an imbalance in the game, so what's wrong with asking to balance them?

 

4 hours ago, Roland said:

Maybe I missed it and I know you're tired but could you please give me an example of a playstyle that is only available at low difficulty and is impossible to accomplish at high difficulty?

 

Read carefully these two quotes. This is EXACTLY what went down. You made a statement and I asked a question in direct response. You used the term playstyle and put it in quotes which probably means you have some personal definition you are using for that word. That's fine. I'm happy to abide by whatever you mean by "playstyle". Please provide an example of whatever it is you are talking about. You already provided melee combat but then for some reason decided that talking about the subject you provided constitutes a derailment of the conversation and somehow blame me for turning the conversation to that. That's not my intention.

 

SO PICK ANOTHER ONE!

 

36 minutes ago, bachgaman said:

Second, I have already given a list of useless and alomst useless perks for a high level of difficulty (difficulty where player should treat the choice of skills wisely, and not improve the first thing he saw)

Yeah...I'm confused about the two perks that only increase stealth for the shock batons. I'm not familiar with those two perks.

 

36 minutes ago, bachgaman said:

If a person maliciously deviates from the subject of discussion and transfers the discussion into personalities, then he tries to offend the interlocutor. I see no other reason.

 

No malicious intent here. I asked a question based on your statement and then went off of the direction you supplied. Where did I talk about your personality? At worst, I made the judgement call that regardless of how skilled you are at the game there may yet exist a player or players that exceed your ability and it would be unfair to those folks to ruin their challenge by increasing the power and ability of the player. That is the only statement I made toward you personally that maybe there exists someone who plays the game better than you.

 

Sorry.

Edited April 17, 2021 by Roland (see edit history)

[Roland]

25 minutes ago, bachgaman said:

Here I mean the fact that electrical stun batons are a very weak weapon of incomprehensible purpose. And the fact that the stealth mode does not really fit into mechanics of the game. I don't mind being able to crouch and crawl past the biker zombie at the start of the game. But have ability improving this opportunity? What for? Someone wrote that thanks to this he kills sleepers with a crossbow, well, alodisments to this person. But I would rather throw a pipe bomb or do a headshot with a 44 magnum with no stealth and no unnecessary waste of skillpoints

 

There are quite a few people who have fun playing with the stealth perks. Increasing the stealth perks doesn't just allow you to sneak past zombies or kill them when they are sleepers without waking them. They also allow you hide and re-emerge to stealth kill zombies that automatically wake up. WIthout the stealth perks the memory of the zombies is too long and their ability to follow your breadcrumb trail and see you too great to be able to do this. Once stealth is perked to max you gain the ability to hide and aggroed zombies won't find you.

 

If you don't like stealth then don't spend the points on it. That doesn't mean it must be removed from the game. For someone who is complaining that there are no choices you seem very liberal about ending all those choices for everyone else that they enjoy that you find useless for yourself.

 

Again, this conversation is difficult because you are having a tough time expressing yourself well. You literally said their are two perks that give stealth bonuses specifically for the electric baton and that having these perks are incomprehensible. That statement is completely false and completely different than saying that just in general you think that stealth perks should be removed and that electric batons are too weak. It makes it extremely difficult to understand what you are trying to say. Not your fault but you keep typing that we are being stupid or that we are attacking you and I think the problem is simply language.

[bachgaman]

27 minutes ago, Jost Amman said:

My friend. It's evident you're a Min-Maxer, and you're not even aware of that... 

Even so, what's wrong with that? The fact that I want to have a justified choice, and not make deliberately bad steps for the sake of phantom pleasure? This is a perversion when you have tried everything and start to go beyond reason in search of new sensations.

 

22 minutes ago, Roland said:

 

 

Read carefully these two quotes. This is EXACTLY what went down. You made a statement and I asked a question in direct response to your question. You used the term playstyle and put it in quotes which probably means you have some personal definition you are using for that word. That's fine. I'm happy to abide by whatever you mean by "playstyle". Please provide an example of whatever it is you are talking about. You already provided melee combat but then for some reason decided that talking about the subject you provided constitutes a derailment of the conversation.

 

SO PICK ANOTHER ONE!

 

 

Yes you most definitely did. Here is the quoted proof with nothing altered.

 

 

 

Read carefully these two quotes. This is EXACTLY what went down. You made a statement and I asked a question in direct response. You used the term playstyle and put it in quotes which probably means you have some personal definition you are using for that word. That's fine. I'm happy to abide by whatever you mean by "playstyle". Please provide an example of whatever it is you are talking about. You already provided melee combat but then for some reason decided that talking about the subject you provided constitutes a derailment of the conversation and somehow blame me for turning the conversation to that. That's not my intention.

 

SO PICK ANOTHER ONE!

 

Yeah...I'm confused about the two perks that only increase stealth for the shock batons. I'm not familiar with those two perks.

 

 

No malicious intent here. I asked a question based on your statement and then went off of the direction you supplied. Where did I talk about your personality? At worst, I made the judgement call that regardless of how skilled you are at the game there may yet exist a player or players that exceed your ability and it would be unfair to those folks to ruin their challenge by increasing the power and ability of the player. That is the only statement I made toward you personally that maybe there exists someone who plays the game better than you.

 

Sorry.

Man, you are a moderator on this site, so use functionality and click on the arrow next to the quoted post, and then read the quote in the quoted post and you will understand why I used this phrase. Probably now you must have been jubilant that you caught me by the hand, but in my opinion you screwed up, I will make screenshot to make it easier for you to find the arrow I'm talking about

So, will you keep trying to cling to words, or will we discuss abilities? 

I repeat, I gave a list of abilities, which improving leads to a worsening of game situation when playing on high difficulty

I think this is the answer to your question, even though you trying to find fault with the words

10 minutes ago, Roland said:

 

There are quite a few people who have fun playing with the stealth perks. Increasing the stealth perks doesn't just allow you to sneak past zombies or kill them when they are sleepers without waking them. They also allow you hide and re-emerge to stealth kill zombies that automatically wake up. WIthout the stealth perks the memory of the zombies is too long and their ability to follow your breadcrumb trail and see you too great to be able to do this. Once stealth is perked to max you gain the ability to hide and aggroed zombies won't find you.

 

If you don't like stealth then don't spend the points on it. That doesn't mean it must be removed from the game. For someone who is complaining that there are no choices you seem very liberal about ending all those choices for everyone else that they enjoy that you find useless for yourself.

 

Again, this conversation is difficult because you are having a tough time expressing yourself well. You literally said their are two perks that give stealth bonuses specifically for the electric baton and that having these perks are incomprehensible. That statement is completely false and completely different than saying that just in general you think that stealth perks should be removed and that electric batons are too weak. It makes it extremely difficult to understand what you are trying to say. Not your fault but you keep typing that we are being stupid or that we are attacking you and I think the problem is simply language.

 

Did I say that no one uses it? I just said that this is a deliberately bad choice and it is obviously so. Surely there are people who are invest into Treasure Hunter, but this does not make their choice justified

 

I also did not say that I do not like stealth, I just see that it is not in demand like treasure hunter. There are people who choose this, but it does not give them an advantage. They just want to try something different

 

So why not make the game really replayable and not just for those who are ready to throw skill points into the basket for the sake of imaginary flexibility in terms of choosing the path of character progress

 

Sorry for english

Edited April 17, 2021 by bachgaman (see edit history)

[Roland]

5 minutes ago, bachgaman said:

Man, you are a moderator on this site, so use functionality and click on the arrow next to the quoted post, and then read the quote in the quoted post and you will understand why I used this phrase.

 

lol...I hope everyone in this thread clicks on that arrow and reads what @BFT2020 said to you about what it means to be a real player and then reads your response and then reads my question to you based on your response. I hope everyone reminds themselves of the full context of that post before reading my follow-up question.

 

Because when they do and then see how you've behaved since then they'll think, "Gosh, that moderator has a lot of patience and even if he needs some guy to circle the back arrow for him, he's pretty okay in my book."

 

I don't think you understood what @BFT2020 was saying to you. Again, not your fault but it is making this whole conversation very difficult.

13 minutes ago, bachgaman said:

Even so, what's wrong with that? The fact that I want to have a justified choice, and not make deliberately bad steps for the sake of phantom pleasure? This is a perversion when you have tried everything and start to go beyond reason in search of new sensations.

 

There's nothing wrong with being a min-maxer but there is a weakness to that way of playing games in that you will find fewer choices because there can only be one best way-- especially in an assymetrical design like 7 Days to Die. For example, you can play the game nomad, you can build your own overland base, you can upgrade an existing structure, you can build an underground base. These choices are not equal. They have different pros and cons. From an efficiency perspective the one best way is to simply base on the roof of a large building. So someone who wantst to min/max would look at all the choices for building bases and think that there is no choice other than building on top of a large building because every other option takes too much time and materials and effort.

 

But the truth is that any of those base building plans can be chosen in order to experience something different and to attempt to overcome the separate challenges inherent in each situation.

 

You are wanting to min/max the perks and abilities so there is no waste of points and because you view some of the perks as useless in the late game (such as treasure hunter). Because of your viewpoint your options are fewer than mine since I don't care about maximizing the usefulness of my perk points.

 

At the end of the day there is the Forgetting Elixer that you can use to completely respec so really there is no waste of points. If you start with stealth but then decide it just isn't fun and you hate it and would rather thow pipe bombs, take swig and respec and put the stealth points into demolition instead and have fun with your pipe bombs.

[bachgaman]

11 minutes ago, Roland said:

 

lol...I hope everyone in this thread clicks on that arrow and reads what @BFT2020 said to you about what it means to be a real player and then reads your response and then reads my question to you based on your response. I hope everyone reminds themselves of the full context of that post before reading my follow-up question.

 

Because when they do and then see how you've behaved since then they'll think, "Gosh, that moderator has a lot of patience and even if he needs some guy to circle the back arrow for him, he's pretty okay in my book."

 

I don't think you understood what @BFT2020 was saying to you. Again, not your fault but it is making this whole conversation very difficult.

Okay. I will have to explain if you are dodging.

 

So I didn't use this phrase first, this is the first.

 

Second, I put it in quotes because I really don't understand what he means. And I don't think he understands himself, because he wrote a typical populist demagogue message. Like we are all equal, we are all united, everyone is important, bla-bla-bla. I don’t argue with that. What I'm trying to say is that the game is replayable only when there is a balance of abilities, not when there are only worst abilities and there are OP ablities

 

Yes, I answered him blindly, but I operated only with his words. I made a conclusion only from his words. To do this, I do not need to understand what he meant, even if so

 

It's funny how aggressive you are that you stick to the terms so much

Edited April 17, 2021 by bachgaman (see edit history)

[Roland]

23 minutes ago, bachgaman said:

Did I say that no one uses it?

lol..you said they should get rid of it which would mean that no one could use it...

 

24 minutes ago, bachgaman said:

I just said that this is a deliberately bad choice and it is obviously so.

Deliberately bad choice based on what measure? DPS? Ammo spent to clear a POI? Utility for both exploration and horde night defense? Opportunity cost of spending the perk points elsewhere?

 

27 minutes ago, bachgaman said:

They just want to try something different

 

IMO, this is enough of a justification to have it and if it is suboptimal in terms of overall player power then it also constitutes a challenge for that player. You are not a role player, obviously. This game is meant for you to assume a role-- such as a treasure hunter, and play the game from that role. If you don't want to do that because it means you have to ignore other advantages you could have had then, yes, this game is going to have limited replayability for you.

 

30 minutes ago, bachgaman said:

So why not make the game really replayable and not just for those who are ready to throw skill points into the basket for the sake of imaginary flexibility in terms of choosing the path of character progress

 

As a min-maxer, your illusion is that there is such a game that is so perfectly balanced that there are five roads to endgame that are perfectly equal in efficiency so that you aren't weaker on one path than you are on another. This game isn't even trying to do that. I doubt there are very many games that successfully do that. There usually, over time, emerges one path that is determined to be the best for folks like you and then you are back to no choices but one again.

9 minutes ago, bachgaman said:

It's funny how aggressive you are that you stick to the terms so much

 

funny haha or funny wierd?

[bachgaman]

37 minutes ago, Roland said:

There's nothing wrong with being a min-maxer but there is a weakness to that way of playing games in that you will find fewer choices because there can only be one best way-- especially in an assymetrical design like 7 Days to Die. For example, you can play the game nomad, you can build your own overland base, you can upgrade an existing structure, you can build an underground base. These choices are not equal. They have different pros and cons. From an efficiency perspective the one best way is to simply base on the roof of a large building. So someone who wantst to min/max would look at all the choices for building bases and think that there is no choice other than building on top of a large building because every other option takes too much time and materials and effort.

I dont do that

I dont like it

Im upgrading structures

18 minutes ago, Roland said:

Deliberately bad choice based on what measure? DPS? Ammo spent to clear a POI? Utility for both exploration and horde night defense? Opportunity cost of spending the perk points elsewhere?

1. other perks better

2. this dont help in BM neither directly nor indirectly

2 minutes ago, Roland said:

As a min-maxer, your illusion is that there is such a game that is so perfectly balanced that there are five roads to endgame that are perfectly equal in efficiency so that you aren't weaker on one path than you are on another. This game isn't even trying to do that. I doubt there are very many games that successfully do that. There usually, over time, emerges one path that is determined to be the best for folks like you and then you are back to no choices but one again.

Lol, is it probably very convenient to put labels on people? You called me a minmaxer and made a lot of disappointing conclusions from this, while you can't even imagine how far from the truth you are

And you have again reduced discussion of abilities to a discussion of my personality

You sound like existing abilities like Treasure Hunter is a problem for me as a person, not a problem with the balance of the game

Do you understand how absurd this is?

How much do you really care about the game compared to being able to beat someone up?

 

[BFT2020]

2 hours ago, bachgaman said:

So, you could clarify this right away

How do you do it? Let me guess

Are you building some weird structures with zombies stuck in or something like that?

Are you jumping from pole to pole trying to play for time?

 

In any case, i bet it looks something like this. Thus, you "survive" not thanks to melee weapons, but in spite of them. It's like saying that a kettlebell tied to your leg helps you swim, because there are several people who have learned to swim with a kettlebell all their lives and they succeeded

Again, who is the one attacking whom?  You started out fine but then instantly claimed that I am only "surviving" by building some weird structures.

 

Do I just stand there and let zombies pound on me while I poke them with my knife?  No, I don't (and why would someone do that anyways?).  What do I do?  Let me give you a recent example of what I did.  I had a wandering horde come across me (I believe it was about 8 zombies).  Some were in the front, none of them were ferals so I quickly took stock of my surroundings.  I was in an open area, outside.  There was a large rock behind me.  I engaged the zombies.  First two in front, I power attack both of them once each.  This caused them to stagger and get bleeding effects applied to them.  I backed up, keeping myself aware if any other zombies are out there besides the wandering horde that is coming after me.  I keep an eye on my stamina, only engaging enough to cause bleeding affects via power attack (if they are not already) or simple attacks to cause damage.  The entire time I am backing up.  If they are starting to get too close, I disengage.  Put the rock between me and them, let my stamina recharge.  And then go back into attack mode, power attacks and regular attacks.  The horde numbers thin as I either take them out with my attacks or the DOT finishes them.

 

So how do I survive?  By taking into account the weapon I am using, what I am facing, where I am at, and above all, maintaining situational awareness of everything around me.

54 minutes ago, bachgaman said:

Second, I put it in quotes because I really don't understand what he means. And I don't think he understands himself, because he wrote a typical populist demagogue message. Like we are all equal, we are all united, everyone is important, bla-bla-bla.

 

I understand myself fine.  And I think my original statement that you have an issue with is fine on its own, I don't need to add anything to it.

1 hour ago, Roland said:

 

lol...I hope everyone in this thread clicks on that arrow and reads what @BFT2020 said to you about what it means to be a real player and then reads your response and then reads my question to you based on your response. I hope everyone reminds themselves of the full context of that post before reading my follow-up question.

 

Because when they do and then see how you've behaved since then they'll think, "Gosh, that moderator has a lot of patience and even if he needs some guy to circle the back arrow for him, he's pretty okay in my book."

Thumbs up from me, you have a lot more patience that I would probably have  😁

[Jost Amman]

2 hours ago, bachgaman said:

2 hours ago, Jost Amman said:

My friend. It's evident you're a Min-Maxer, and you're not even aware of that... 

Even so, what's wrong with that?

 

1 hour ago, bachgaman said:

2 hours ago, Roland said:

As a min-maxer, your illusion is that there is such a game that is so perfectly balanced that there are five roads to endgame that are perfectly equal in efficiency so that you aren't weaker on one path than you are on another. This game isn't even trying to do that. I doubt there are very many games that successfully do that. There usually, over time, emerges one path that is determined to be the best for folks like you and then you are back to no choices but one again.

Lol, is it probably very convenient to put labels on people? You called me a minmaxer and made a lot of disappointing conclusions from this, while you can't even imagine how far from the truth you are

Wait. First you basically admit to me that you're a min-maxer (nothing wrong with that) but then you accuse Roland to "put labels on people"??

You have to make up your mind: in your opinion are you a min-maxer or not?

My educated guess, based on what you write, is that you indeed are one.

 

That being said I think what everyone is trying to tell you, but probably has failed to convey, is that unbalance is often times where the real fun can be found. Think about movies for example: did you ever enjoy a movie where everything goes perfectly as expected? Or did you enjoy more those movies that had plot twists and surprises all over?

 

The same applies to games, moreover so to 7D2D.

"WE", the non min-maxers, believe it or not, enjoy challenging ourselves with sub-optimal builds.

[bachgaman]

13 minutes ago, Jost Amman said:

 

Wait. First you basically admit to me that you're a min-maxer (nothing wrong with that) but then you accuse Roland to "put labels on people"??

You have to make up your mind: in your opinion are you a min-maxer or not?

My educated guess, based on what you write, is that you indeed are one.

 

That being said I think what everyone is trying to tell you, but probably has failed to convey, is that unbalance is often times where the real fun can be found. Think about movies for example: did you ever enjoy a movie where everything goes perfectly as expected? Or did you enjoy more those movies that had plot twists and surprises all over?

 

The same applies to games, moreover so to 7D2D.

"WE", the non min-maxers, believe it or not, enjoy challenging ourselves with sub-optimal builds.

  

2 hours ago, bachgaman said:

Even so, what's wrong with that?

😂

13 minutes ago, Jost Amman said:

you basically admit

 

[bachgaman]

 

5 hours ago, BFT2020 said:

Yes, I do fight with a bone knife at the beginning until I can get my hands on a higher quality knife.  Yes, I do perk into Deep Cuts.  Combine with Flurry of blows and parkour, I can handle anything outside of a 64 Z bloodmoon horde

 

1 hour ago, BFT2020 said:

Do I just stand there and let zombies pound on me while I poke them with my knife?  No, I don't (and why would someone do that anyways?).  What do I do?  Let me give you a recent example of what I did.  I had a wandering horde come across me (I believe it was about 8 zombies).  Some were in the front, none of them were ferals so I quickly took stock of my surroundings.  I was in an open area, outside.  There was a large rock behind me.  I engaged the zombies.  First two in front, I power attack both of them once each.  This caused them to stagger and get bleeding effects applied to them.  I backed up, keeping myself aware if any other zombies are out there besides the wandering horde that is coming after me.  I keep an eye on my stamina, only engaging enough to cause bleeding affects via power attack (if they are not already) or simple attacks to cause damage.  The entire time I am backing up.  If they are starting to get too close, I disengage.  Put the rock between me and them, let my stamina recharge.  And then go back into attack mode, power attacks and regular attacks.  The horde numbers thin as I either take them out with my attacks or the DOT finishes them.

Cool story, thank you

 

 

By the way, do you want me to tell a story too? I'm walking through the forest on insane nightmare difficulty and I see a horde of zombies I take out a level 6 AK-47 and make a shots, they all are dead. The end.