A20 Developer Diary Discussions

[bachgaman]

21 minutes ago, Roland said:

 

I understand from your own words that if you have a more powerful alternative over a current weapon you are using then the weapon you are currently using no longer seems fun to you.

 

Spears are definitely not the most powerful but using a spear in combination with a club is just a lot of fun. Jab Jab Throw smash. Is it efficient and is the spear the most powerful option compared to other weapons? No. But it is challenging and fun to use.

 

 

Hey, can you see that I'm not just talking about weapons? Hello?

 

Even if what you wrote is fun, then, you must admit, is it possible without spending skill points for 50% damage? Have fun 1-2 hits longer btw

[katarynna]

4 hours ago, bachgaman said:

I repeat, you can tell any stories from the Adventurer difficulty level, this will in no way change the fact that these perks are worthless

 

Although I don't play on adventure difficulty level, stories from perks being useful on adventurer difficulty are 100% valid.

 

Perk balance is not done based just on insane difficulty nightmare speed zombies. It is based on all settings.

 

For example, you say iron gut is a useless perk. If you watch any larger multiplayer youtube series, you will find that it is a necessity. Food is much more difficult for larger groups, and iron gut helps them a lot. See Grand Spartan multiplayer series for example.

 

You say no one fights with knives. Although I haven't watched him, apparently jonah birch uses knives due to the slow that you get from the perks in his insane difficulty, always run, nightmare speed, permadeath playthroughs. Maybe you can get some tips there on how it's done.

 

Parkour is used by lots of people who do high level melee horde builds.  I have seen people who fight the horde in the streets with melee, utilizing pillars to jump onto rather than an actual base. It looks both fun and useful to me, although as a disabled grandmother i don't have the twitch reflexes to make it work for me.

 

For people who play on lower difficulties, who matter just as much as you, fully perking a melee weapon can make a difference in a one hit kill or not.

 

For people who prefer the extra challenge of playing on an all snow or all desert map, well insulated is a very useful perk.

 

Most of the perks you deem useless are quite likely high priority perks for some people, some situations, some difficulty level, etc.

[Roland]

1 hour ago, bachgaman said:

 

 

Hey, can you see that I'm not just talking about weapons? Hello?

 

Even if what you wrote is fun, then, you must admit, is it possible without spending skill points for 50% damage? Have fun 1-2 hits longer btw

 

Lets call it abilities. Perks give abilities and weapons give abilities. Abilities that you see as worthless, others see as valuable. Abilities that you see as unviable at your current difficulty level others see as challenging but doable at your current difficulty level. Your assumptions only extend to your own mouse and your own keyboard. If you cannot believe that certain abilities could ever be useful at higher than Adventurer difficulty then either don't use them or lower the difficulty to a point where they do feel viable for you.

 

 

[bachgaman]

1 hour ago, katarynna said:

Perk balance is not done based just on insane difficulty nightmare speed zombies. It is based on all settings.

On a weak difficulty, a good abilities will not get worse. And the worst won't get better. Just the worst abilities will become playable since the game is easy. You might not be upgrading abilities at all on easy difficulty

 

The fact that someone is improving useless abilities on an easy difficulty level does not mean that they suddenly became useful

1 hour ago, katarynna said:

For example, you say iron gut is a useless perk. If you watch any larger multiplayer youtube series, you will find that it is a necessity. Food is much more difficult for larger groups, and iron gut helps them a lot. See Grand Spartan multiplayer series for example.

You brought an extreme situation in which he can be useful, but if they together pushing the fifth level of this ability then they are just noobs. A couple of people from a group with perks for farming and a chef will more than cover all the food needs of even a large group with the proper effort of all group members (searching for seeds, building plots)

 

Again, why they so need food in game if there is no real penalty for hunger?

 

To summarize what you wrote to me, we can say that these abilities are needed if player wants perversion or makes a video for YouTube. If this was intended by the developer, then I agree that I was wrong and I will say that useless abilities in the form of 10/20/30/40/50% damage are needed by this game, but in turn, I note that the real perversion is to use melee weapons and improving abilities for ranged weapons. This is the real level of content for YouTube

 

Edited April 16, 2021 by bachgaman (see edit history)

[katarynna]

52 minutes ago, bachgaman said:

On a weak difficulty, a good abilities will not get worse. And the worst won't get better. Just the worst abilities will become playable since the game is easy. You might not be upgrading abilities at all on easy difficulty

 

If you are counting the melee weapon perks as among the worst, then you are wrong about the "worst" abilities not getting better on lower difficulty. Lowering the difficulty increases the amount of damage you do per hit to the zombies and decreases the amount of damage they do to you.

 

Say a zombie has 100 health. On highest difficulty one club hit may do 20 damage so 50% more would be 30. On the lowest difficulty, that same hit with that same club may do 70 damage, making the perk give you a one hit kill. 

 

Percent damage increases are much more impactful at lower difficulties.

 

As for not upgrading abilities on easier difficulties, you are aware that people have different levels of proficiency at the game? Some people playing on the easiest difficulty do so because they are not particularly good at the game but still have fun playing it. They need the upgraded abilities to keep pace with the upgraded zombie types. Those players are just as valuable as you are.

 

59 minutes ago, bachgaman said:

You brought an extreme situation in which he can be useful, but if they together pushing the fifth level of this ability then they are just noobs. A couple of people from a group with perks for farming and a chef will more than cover all the food needs of even a large group with the proper effort of all group members (searching for seeds, building plots)

 

Playing in a group is not an extreme situation. There are many people who are likeable enough to have friends. The recommendation of watching the grand spartan multiplayer series was just so you could see what a struggle food can be in multiplayer, and is far from the only example of this. I never have food troubles in single player, but in a group it is a noticeable increase in difficulty. 

 

Hunger causes stamina issues, which decrease both the amount of stuff you can get done as well as how much fun you have doing it.

[bachgaman]

25 minutes ago, katarynna said:

If you are counting the melee weapon perks as among the worst, then you are wrong about the "worst" abilities not getting better on lower difficulty. Lowering the difficulty increases the amount of damage you do per hit to the zombies and decreases the amount of damage they do to you.

 

Say a zombie has 100 health. On highest difficulty one club hit may do 20 damage so 50% more would be 30. On the lowest difficulty, that same hit with that same club may do 70 damage, making the perk give you a one hit kill. 

 

Percent damage increases are much more impactful at lower difficulties.

 

As for not upgrading abilities on easier difficulties, you are aware that people have different levels of proficiency at the game? Some people playing on the easiest difficulty do so because they are not particularly good at the game but still have fun playing it. They need the upgraded abilities to keep pace with the upgraded zombie types. Those players are just as valuable as you are.

So we have 3 hit vs 5 hits on hard

And 1 hit vs 2 hits on easy

 

Has the efficiency increased dramatically? Lol same ~50%

 

I didn't say that these perks need to be removed, I said that they need to be strengthened, and more importantly, not so much strengthened as made more interesting thanks to unique bonuses. And if they weren't such a crap, these players could rise above the easiest level of difficulty, right?

29 minutes ago, katarynna said:

Playing in a group is not an extreme situation. There are many people who are likeable enough to have friends. The recommendation of watching the grand spartan multiplayer series was just so you could see what a struggle food can be in multiplayer, and is far from the only example of this. I never have food troubles in single player, but in a group it is a noticeable increase in difficulty. 

 

Hunger causes stamina issues, which decrease both the amount of stuff you can get done as well as how much fun you have doing it.

I play party with 2-3 players 95% of time on my own dedicated server. We need food for the first two weeks maximum, then food in excess. And then we do it only for fair play, by and large it is not necessary to eat in game. 10-20% stamina penalty is laughable, especially if you're not into perverted with melee weapons too much

[katarynna]

1 hour ago, bachgaman said:

So we have 3 hit vs 5 hits on hard

And 1 hit vs 2 hits on easy

 

Has the efficiency increased dramatically? Lol same ~50%

 

I didn't say that these perks need to be removed, I said that they need to be strengthened, and more importantly, not so much strengthened as made more interesting thanks to unique bonuses. And if they weren't such a crap, these players could rise above the easiest level of difficulty, right?

 If you only encounter 1 zombie, sure. However, if you encounter a group of 4 zombies, it is 12 hits vs 20 on hard, with 1 less zombie to fight each time you kill one.

 

On easy, it is 4 hits vs 8, with one zombie dying and thus not still trying to hit you, with each hit. If you can't see that can mean the difference between living and dying for someone who is not very skilled at the game, you are just not looking.

 

And again, the fact that you believe a perk to be "such a crap" does not make it so for other people in other situations. 

 

People who don't do a lot of mining consider the mining perks to be crap. People who don't use the trader or rarely use the trader consider better barter and daring adventurer crap. People who stick to the town they make their base in would consider grease monkey a crap way to use points.

 

People who play solo would consider charismatic nature crap, since it only benefits multiplayer. People who live strictly off of scavenged food and drinks would consider living off the land and master chef crap.

 

You are confusing your perception of the value added by perks as the absolute value.

1 hour ago, bachgaman said:

I play party with 2-3 players 95% of time on my own dedicated server. We need food for the first two weeks maximum, then food in excess. And then we do it only for fair play, by and large it is not necessary to eat in game. 10-20% stamina penalty is laughable, especially if you're not into perverted with melee weapons too much

 

I specifically said "larger multiplayer". adding 2-3 more people makes it more difficult but still manageable for me. Larger multiplayer (6-8) makes it much more difficult.

 

As for the stamina penalty, I have never seen a 10%. It is always higher. And many people use melee weapons efficiently and have fun with them. Stamina penalties affect them a lot. 

 

While you are unable to use melee weapons effectively and have fun with them, many people can and do. Those people care about stamina and thus food.

[Roland]

2 hours ago, bachgaman said:

not so much strengthened as made more interesting thanks to unique bonuses. 

This, I agree with. Some perks are quite original and interesting but many are just ho hum +%. 
 

I like unique abilities and bonuses. Although I think that Madmole would say that he used the books to  cover the unique and interesting bonuses. 

Edited April 17, 2021 by Roland (see edit history)

[MechanicalLens]

Just speaking out of curiosity @Roland but do you ever max out the perk abilities of a weapon or do you stop at 7/10 of the attribute rank?

[Roland]

1 hour ago, MechanicalLens said:

Just speaking out of curiosity @Roland but do you ever max out the perk abilities of a weapon or do you stop at 7/10 of the attribute rank?

I've only maxed out a weapon perk once or twice back when the new perk system was new and I was testing a couple of the builds. I vastly prefer to spread points around and be a bit above average in many things rather than specialize in just one thing. I tend to buy perks based on my immediate needs and wants. I just started a new playthrough with a brother who has never played before and decided to go full knives so I'm pouring everything into that and trying my best to not get distracted by what looks shiny in any given moment.

[MechanicalLens]

15 minutes ago, Roland said:

I've only maxed out a weapon perk once or twice back when the new perk system was new and I was testing a couple of the builds. I vastly prefer to spread points around and be a bit above average in many things rather than specialize in just one thing. I tend to buy perks based on my immediate needs and wants. I just started a new playthrough with a brother who has never played before and decided to go full knives so I'm pouring everything into that and trying my best to not get distracted by what looks shiny in any given moment.

 

It's very good that you are branching out. I'm considering going bladed myself once A20 eventually hits the public market. Until then I've yet to fall out of old habits. If you wouldn't mind spending another moment of your time at some point, I am curious which perks you typically take and why (i.e. perks that you consider the "diamonds in the rough"). Are there any that you typically purchase as soon as possible? If you're interested I could share with you my traditions in response. I think it would be fascinating for us to learn from one another in this regard. Of course if anyone else wants to chime in, feel free to say what's on your mind.

[Roland]

It's embarrassing to say because I really am very short sighted in my perk purchasing. Usually I am loathe to spend any points on weapons until I find or can purchase something worthwhile and then I'll spend points on that. So for the first week I usually buy the quality of life stuff as I need it. It's literally like if I decide on Day 3 that I want to build a base from scratch then I'll put points into Miner69 and Mother Lode. If I am doing quests and am coming home encumbered and sick of it, I'll put a point or two into pack mule. I almost always put a point into Master Chef if I'm playing solo but never if I'm playing with family as there are others who love to cook and feed everyone.

 

I don't mind spending a couple of points towards building a forge and a bicycle but I usually wait until after day 7 just in case the trader restock nets me the parts or the outright bicycle that I can just purchase and to see if I'll find a working forge somewhere. I never feel a need to really get into the forge or perking up a particular weapon until after the first bloodmoon because it is such a cakewalk. 

 

I guess I just kind of like all the general ability perks that make life easier and stamina better and food digestion slower etc during the first week or two and then start perking into the favorites of the good weapons I've begun to find and/or buy at the trader. I personally love the bow and arrow. I am always happy when I find good bows and bow parts early on because then I know I'll be perking up archery. There is just something so satisfying about popping zombie heads with an arrow from my bow. I remember spending my nights using gore blocks as target practice and no matter how far away they were, I could hear the satisfying wet bloody splashing sound when they would pop to one of my arrows. Ah gore blocks.....good times....

 

In my current playthrough I'm ignoring all those general goodies and just focusing on maxing knives. So really a different approach than normal. I haven't even gotten a hunting knife yet and am still using a bone knife. Normally, if I was going to do blades I would wait until I had obtained at least a hunting knife....

Edited April 17, 2021 by Roland (see edit history)

[MechanicalLens]

Very interesting. While you are very flexible and have no real plan going into your next game in terms of weaponry, I am quite the opposite. Towards the end of my soon-to-be retired playthrough I meticulously flesh out my next character, either with the official 7D2D perk calculator (thank you Jackplay) or through various blueprints and work documents. I typically have four main playthroughs per alpha, each one consisting of the heavy use of one of the attributes, one by one, except for Intellect. I've yet to be sold on that one. So if I'm going clubs, it doesn't matter if I loot a superior spear or machete before my first baseball bat- I stick to my plan and see it through.

 

I'm a miner by heart, through and through. While the Dwarves delved too greedily and too deep, I plunge ever deeper into the world seeking great veins of ore while craving great tunnels out of the stone. These days I find that I invest all of my early game perks into Miner 69er, Mother Lode, and Sex Rex, getting the former two to rank 4/5 and the latter to rank 3/4 before the first blood moon hits, along with a point in Advanced Engineering since I often cannot be bothered to wait around for a forge recipe. (Maybe I'm having dumb luck, but I often find that the traders aren't selling forges nor do I find the schematic until 20-30 hours in my games on average.) Having quality level 5 iron tools and the ability to swing them indefinitely greatly increases my resource harvesting capabilities and the prospect for building a larger structure earlier than most; I go big or I go home, although I often find I bite off more than I can chew, sometimes to the point of burning me out of that particular run.

 

Other miscellaneous points within the first couple of weeks include a single rank into The Huntsman to acquire extra meat early on as well as additional bones from gore piles, a point into Rule 1: Cardio if I cannot procure or craft a bicycle within the first week, and perhaps a single point each into the perks of whatever weapons I happened to select from. I rarely visit traders nowadays, so I never invest into the bartering and adventuring skills anymore, although we'll see if A20 changes this.

 

Before crafting bullets I am inclined to invest the required number of perk points to bring Advanced Engineering to the third rank. Totally unnecessary especially if I'm rolling around with shotguns, but I suppose to bleeds directly into my min-max strategy.

 

Other perks I eventually invest into are Pain Tolerance, a single point into Living Off The Land, Heavy Armor, the final points into my weapon perks, a point or two into Salvage Operations, and honestly that would about do it. By this point I'm around level 50 and the level grind truly begins. But perhaps that is because I play on 75% EXP; I level up far too quickly for my own good. On 60 minute days and 100% EXP gain I could easily level three times a day until the mid-30's.

 

Also I must mention I never invest into the Agility tree unless I'm going for a stealth run.

 

When A20 hits I'm considering changing up the name of the game a little and breaking some old nasty habits. Restarting innumerable times before finally sticking to a playthrough is one of them, building a non-modular base that takes me weeks to finish before I can finally begin defending from it is a close second. Perhaps instead of treating them like a band-aid, I might only invest into the mining/stamina perks once I require them versus weeks ahead of time.

 

For right now I've rolled back to Alpha 18.4 stable branch where I am finishing off my current playthrough; I'm honestly going to be retiring it much sooner than expected. I might start another run, or just wait until the next alpha. Skyrim will be more than enough to keep my busy.

[bachgaman]

8 hours ago, katarynna said:

 If you only encounter 1 zombie, sure. However, if you encounter a group of 4 zombies, it is 12 hits vs 20 on hard, with 1 less zombie to fight each time you kill one.

 

On easy, it is 4 hits vs 8, with one zombie dying and thus not still trying to hit you, with each hit. If you can't see that can mean the difference between living and dying for someone who is not very skilled at the game, you are just not looking.

12 vs 20 or 4 vs 8 thats still boring 50% 😁

8 hours ago, katarynna said:

And again, the fact that you believe a perk to be "such a crap" does not make it so for other people in other situations. 

 

People who don't do a lot of mining consider the mining perks to be crap. People who don't use the trader or rarely use the trader consider better barter and daring adventurer crap. People who stick to the town they make their base in would consider grease monkey a crap way to use points.

 

People who play solo would consider charismatic nature crap, since it only benefits multiplayer. People who live strictly off of scavenged food and drinks would consider living off the land and master chef crap.

 

You are confusing your perception of the value added by perks as the absolute value.

Mining is vital. If you don’t mine resources, then you don’t survive.

 

Barter and adventurer are just OP skills that allow you to get a crucible by day 10, and a drill by 18th.

 

Charisma is not necessary in a solo, I agree, but that does not make it weak, but just specific. What is important is that it provides unique and interesting bonuses.

 

It is impossible to live on canned food and drinks if you do not exploit death or the absence of a penalty for hunger.

 

Thus, everything that you wrote does not apply to real players, it applies to people resting in a near-creative mode. Also, all this does not make these skills boring and weak, such as 10/20/30/40/50% damage from a Javelin. You still don't understand what I'm talking about

 

8 hours ago, katarynna said:

I specifically said "larger multiplayer". adding 2-3 more people makes it more difficult but still manageable for me. Larger multiplayer (6-8) makes it much more difficult.

 

As for the stamina penalty, I have never seen a 10%. It is always higher. And many people use melee weapons efficiently and have fun with them. Stamina penalties affect them a lot. 

 

While you are unable to use melee weapons effectively and have fun with them, many people can and do. Those people care about stamina and thus food.

I specifically said "extreme example". And I agreed that in such an extreme situation there really is a need to improve this ability once for each member of group. Why are there other levels of this ability in the game if by the time they are learned, even a large group will not have problems with food?

 

Thus, according to you, the game makes already weak melee class, able to survive only on an easy level of difficulty, addicted to food, while people who have found a more useful use of their skill points do not need food. Very clever game design. Let's do a dull 10/20/30/40/50% Javelin and make the hunger penalty make them even weaker than others

Edited April 17, 2021 by bachgaman (see edit history)

[MechanicalLens]

58 minutes ago, bachgaman said:

It is impossible to live on canned food and drinks if you do not exploit death or the absence of a penalty for hunger.

 

Not true. Many people did just this in Alpha 18 due to the irritating food poisoning mechanic that was in the game back then. All you have to do is mark each vending machine you find on the map and visit them daily.

[BFT2020]

1 hour ago, bachgaman said:

Thus, everything that you wrote does not apply to real players, it applies to people resting in a near-creative mode. Also, all this does not make these skills boring and weak, such as 10/20/30/40/50% damage from a Javelin. You still don't understand what I'm talking about

Real players are anyone that plays the game and has fun doing so.  It doesn’t matter if they play at the easiest settings or turn all the settings up to the max.  It doesn’t matter if they build a huge, complex base or take over a POI to defend themselves against the hordes.  It doesn’t matter if they go in guns blazing all the time, or use melee weapons a majority of the time.  It doesn’t matter if they spread their perks across multiple trees or specialize in one or two.

 

Real players are players that play the game; it is not defined by your playstyle.

[bachgaman]

40 minutes ago, BFT2020 said:

Real players are anyone that plays the game and has fun doing so.  It doesn’t matter if they play at the easiest settings or turn all the settings up to the max.  It doesn’t matter if they build a huge, complex base or take over a POI to defend themselves against the hordes.  It doesn’t matter if they go in guns blazing all the time, or use melee weapons a majority of the time.  It doesn’t matter if they spread their perks across multiple trees or specialize in one or two.

 

Real players are players that play the game; it is not defined by your playstyle.

 

The fact that some "playstyles" are only available only at low difficulty suggests that there is an imbalance in the game, so what's wrong with asking to balance them? You attack me like I'm suggesting that all melee weapons shoueld be removed

 

In addition, initially it was about making these abilities more interesting than 10/20/30/40/50% damage, I'm already tired of writing about this

Edited April 17, 2021 by bachgaman (see edit history)

[Roland]

1 hour ago, bachgaman said:

The fact that some "playstyles" are only available only at low difficulty suggests that there is an imbalance in the game

 

Maybe I missed it and I know you're tired but could you please give me an example of a playstyle that is only available at low difficulty and is impossible to accomplish at high difficulty?

[MechanicalLens]

Just now, Roland said:

 

Maybe I missed it and I know you're tired but could you please give me an example of a playstyle that is only available at low difficulty and is impossible to accomplish at high difficulty?

 

Not dying.

[uncle.heavy]

38 minutes ago, bachgaman said:

 

The fact that some "playstyles" are only available only at low difficulty suggests that there is an imbalance in the game, so what's wrong with asking to balance them? You attack me like I'm suggesting that all melee weapons shoueld be removed

 

In addition, initially it was about making these abilities more interesting than 10/20/30/40/50% damage, I'm already tired of writing about this

There have been reports from enough players stating they are completely fine with melee on difficulties of survivalist and beyond and any Z speed. Your ignoring these as they contradict your opinion and experience does not make them any less real.

So, out of the window for not being viable only on low dificulties are hammers, knuckles, clubs and batons, going only by these last pages in the thread.

That leaves us with javelins and maybe knives, with javelins incidentally also being the single one melee weapon whose related perk does soleley add the oft-mentioned flat and uninteresting 50% damage bonus and nothing else. That this whole attribute is on the radar for being reviewed has been stated, so you had been heard before you even spoke up.

Repetition of those arguments that had been disproven already is tiresome to everyone involved, be sure about that. 😉

 

[bachgaman]

30 minutes ago, uncle.heavy said:

There have been reports from enough players stating they are completely fine with melee on difficulties of survivalist and beyond and any Z speed.

 

1 hour ago, bachgaman said:

In addition, initially it was about making these abilities more interesting than 10/20/30/40/50% damage, I'm already tired of writing about this

Stop writing to me about someone who using sledgehammer to kill a alone zombie on nightmare difficulty. I do it myself too

 

30 minutes ago, uncle.heavy said:

Your ignoring these as they contradict your opinion and experience does not make them any less real.

I don’t remember that I ignored someone

 

30 minutes ago, uncle.heavy said:

So, out of the window for not being viable only on low dificulties are hammers, knuckles, clubs and batons, going only by these last pages in the thread.

That leaves us with javelins and maybe knives, with javelins incidentally also being the single one melee weapon whose related perk does soleley add the oft-mentioned flat and uninteresting 50% damage bonus and nothing else. That this whole attribute is on the radar for being reviewed has been stated, so you had been heard before you even spoke up.

Repetition of those arguments that had been disproven already is tiresome to everyone involved, be sure about that. 😉

In that case, even if the developers mentioned it why are you arguing? You want to attack me, instead of supporting rework of truly dead/boring abilities, you attack me about borderline examples and all write same things about the using sledgehammers.

It looks like you are simply against any proposals, you want to hinder any other people's initiative. Do you know about the crab mentality? Instead of voting for to be given interesting content, you continue to throw arguments at me that someone was playing with knife on YouTube 

 

33 minutes ago, Roland said:

 

Maybe I missed it and I know you're tired but could you please give me an example of a playstyle that is only available at low difficulty and is impossible to accomplish at high difficulty?

 

It is impossible to make any melee weapon the main one without dying often and without abusing something

 

You don't need to submit your YouTube videos where people are doing this, clearly abusing the flaws of AI or other mechanics, I'm talking about ordinary players, not content makers

Edited April 17, 2021 by bachgaman (see edit history)

[Roland]

46 minutes ago, bachgaman said:

It is impossible to make any melee weapon the main one without dying often and without abusing something

 

You don't need to submit your YouTube videos where people are doing this, clearly abusing the flaws of AI or other mechanics, I'm talking about ordinary players, not content makers

 

Content makers aren't ordinary players.....? Just because they have a camera turned on the game behaves differently for them? Just like any player you will have content makers who exploit and those who play it straight. There is no difference.

 

You are basically projecting your own experience and level of play onto everyone else and then refusing to accept any proof that shows what you don't want to see.

 

Let me ask you this: At what level of difficulty can YOU still use any melee weapon as the main one and not die often and without abusing something? Nomad? Warrior? Survivalist? What is the upper limit from your experience where the game starts falling apart. You've already scoffed at Adventurer level so I assume you feel melee weapons are fine at that level but at what point do they stop for you and start requiring abuse in order to make them work?

[Roland]

1 hour ago, bachgaman said:

you want to hinder any other people's initiative.

I know this wasn't directed at me but your proposal could be seen as wanting to nerf other people's challenge. If using melee weapons as the main weapon without abusing anything is truly close to impossible then it forms a high mark to aspire to. If we listen to you and make using melee weapons quite possible at the highest difficulties then for those who are close to that level of skill, we have basically yanked the rug out from beneath them. Buffing up weapons so that YOU can play at the hardest difficulty level with those weapons and feel good about it may very well wreck the experience for someone else who will then be asking for a new difficulty level above insane where melee weapons are truly challenging for them again.

 

I can see how people might feel protective of the current level of challenge in Insane and might want to hinder attempts by one guy who views that level of challenge as impossible to get it changed. It would be like me asking for aim assist to be added to ranged weapons because when I play insane nightmare I just can't line shots up quickly enough without somehow abusing the game and so I deem it impossible and assume that it must be impossible for anyone else as well. Others who can use ranged weapons just fine would probably be aghast at aim assist suddenly being added to the game.

Edited April 17, 2021 by Roland (see edit history)

[BFT2020]

3 hours ago, bachgaman said:

 

The fact that some "playstyles" are only available only at low difficulty suggests that there is an imbalance in the game, so what's wrong with asking to balance them? You attack me like I'm suggesting that all melee weapons shoueld be removed

 

In addition, initially it was about making these abilities more interesting than 10/20/30/40/50% damage, I'm already tired of writing about this

I never attacked you, and I never stated that you suggested all melee weapons should be removed.  What I been arguing against was your belief that:  Melee weapons were useless at any difficulty higher than adventurer, that the perks for melee weapons are useless, and that melee weapons and bows are worthless after the first week of gameplay.

 

Remember when you posted "

Deep Cuts

Is someone really fighting with a bone knife instead of a club? or with a hunting knife instead of a grenade launcher?"

 

I replied "Yes, I do fight with a bone knife at the beginning until I can get my hands on a higher quality knife.  Yes, I do perk into Deep Cuts.  Combine with Flurry of blows and parkour, I can handle anything outside of a 64 Z bloodmoon horde"

 

And what exactly was your response?  "I repeat, you can tell any stories from the Adventurer difficulty level, this will in no way change the fact that these perks are worthless"

 

Which I found interesting since I been playing Survivalist difficulty for some time now.  Who exactly is attacking whom?  The person who stated that they can play with other melee weapons than just the club and using those perks to their advantage, or the person that just assumes that the author is only playing at the lowest difficulty so their opinion doesn't count.

 

So please stop acting like you're a victim.  I was never attacking you, just arguing against your broad comments that melee weapons and the perks for them are useless.

 

19 hours ago, Roland said:

Spears are definitely not the most powerful but using a spear in combination with a club is just a lot of fun. Jab Jab Throw smash.

Do you ever say that when you are playing?  Jab Jab Throw Smash?  😆

Edited April 17, 2021 by BFT2020 (see edit history)

[Roland]

4 minutes ago, BFT2020 said:

Do you ever say that when you are playing?  Jab Jab Throw Smash?  😆

 

Yes, and sometimes "Razzle Dazzle!"