Stop it with calling Min-Maxing

[Tahaan]

Stop calling people min-maxers.  

 

A very small part of why we put points into perks is "efficiency".  

 

99% of the motivation is in fact the very attraction of this geanre of game:  The desire to be as good as you can so that you can take on bigger badder enemies.

 

When people want to attain level 5 with for example the shotgun, that is hardly about efficiency.  It is all about it being a helluvalot more fun when you shoot harder, faster, and kill the enemies you struggled to survive against a few days ago with so much ease.

 

So stop killing the game with these unconstructive kinds of comments every time someone criticise the skill tree.

[Liesel Weppen]

1 hour ago, Tahaan said:

So stop killing the game with these unconstructive kinds of comments every time someone criticise the skill tree.

Stop complaining about an INT-build "can't" use other weapons than junk turrets and stun batons and therefore do anything during horde night.

 

That is litteraly the definition of min-maxing and could also put into lexika as description for it.

[JCrook1028]

Min max isn't an insult, just a definition. Stop being so thin skinned?

[Tahaan]

Nonsense.

 

Min-Maxing is about getting as much as possible by putting in as little as possible.

 

Putting points into a weapon is more about having fun with it by being able to make tougher zeds fly head over heal than it is about efficiency.

 

Min-maxing is definitely used in a derogatory fashion in these forums.

[Roland]

3 hours ago, Tahaan said:

When people want to attain level 5 with for example the shotgun, that is hardly about efficiency.  It is all about it being a helluvalot more fun when you shoot harder, faster, and kill the enemies you struggled to survive against a few days ago with so much ease.

I can't imagine anyone calling somebody a min-maxer simply for wanting to get their shotgun perk to level 5. Just wanting to reach the top of a progression tree doesn't make someone a min-maxer. There are usually other factors that contribute to that particular label coming out. For example-- stating that getting to level 5 on the shotgun perk is the only viable path to play the game and as players we are forced to do so or stating that there is no endgame because you got to level 5 of the shotgun perk tree by Day 4....  These kinds of statements are more indicative of the min-maxer.

3 minutes ago, Tahaan said:

Min-maxing is definitely used in a derogatory fashion in these forums.

Min-maxing is a gaming philosophy. Some people love to speed run through games and to find that one true path of minimum effort for maximum output thereby attaining maximum efficiency. I have no problem with people who have fun that way and who come on and share their joy and fun with the game. What I don't appreciate is people who play that way but then complain that the game is grindy or over too soon or that they are forced into one playstyle and it is all because of the choice they are making to play as they do. 

 

If you only want to play in the most efficient way you can then that automatically means there is only going to be one best progression path to take and every time you play it is going to be the same. That isn't the developer's fault, that is your choice. So revel in it and have fun with it but don't whine or criticize the game because of it. Anyone who states that all they can do is kill kill kill all the time because they are forced to do so if they want to progress quickly better be happy about it because there is absolutely no rule in the game that states that we MUST progress quickly nor that we MUST kill to earn our points. Those are all choices that pertain to your own philosophy for playing the game. So have at it and enjoy.

[Tahaan]

I never complained that an INT build can't use other weapons.  I complained about it being hard to put points into the weapons that I enjoy while also being the INT guy.  So basically I was called a Min-maxer just because I want to put points into a perk.

[Liesel Weppen]

2 hours ago, Roland said:

If you only want to play in the most efficient way you can then that automatically means there is only going to be one best progression path to take and every time you play it is going to be the same. That isn't the developer's fault, that is your choice.

Full Ack.

We built cheese bases, it became boring. We decided to not build cheese bases but to fight blood moons actively from an own base, even if we COULD build cheese base... it became boring. We decided we don't build a base but just use a poi. It became boring. We decided to use one poi just for one bloodmoon, what forced us to move after every bloodmoon and also forced us to explore the map. Somwhere in between we decided that a fixed bloodmoon every sunday is boring, so we switchted to random blood moons.

It's not about what's the most efficent way to play, it's about what playstyle makes it interesting. It's your own decision. If you know something becomes boring, just don't do it that way. You are not playing a world championship where the overal goal is to win over everybody else. If you can't set your own targets and your own rules, besides what the mechanics might provide, it's not the games fault, but yours. That almost applies to every open-world-crafting game.

That was already discussed 10 years ago about minecraft. Many people complained that the game doesn't tell you where to go or what to do. But that's not the point. Many people like the game because it does EXACTLY THIS NOT! If you can't deal with that, you're playing the wrong game.

5 minutes ago, Tahaan said:

I never complained that an INT build can't use other weapons.  I complained about it being hard to put points into the weapons that I enjoy while also being the INT guy.  So basically I was called a Min-maxer just because I want to put points into a perk.

Nope! You complained litteraly about an INT-Player not being capable to do something "usefull" during bloodmoon.

Maybe just wrong wording, but that is exactly how i understood your "problem".

 

And that is absolutely wrong. Or just a limit of your own expectations. Imho especially in multiplayer if people decide to take roles 7d2d perfomes much better than in singleplayer. You got all the settings necessary directly to your hands. YOU have to ADEPT the game mechanics, not the other way round! And as described in the other thread there are many MANY ways how to achieve that. 7d2d is not a pure shooter. If you just want to shot something, 7d2d is the wrong game. And hopefully it stays this way, because that is the WHY I play this game. If it degenerates to a pure shooter, i'm not interested anymore. Then i could play thousands of other games that to THAT part way better.

[Tahaan]

12 minutes ago, Liesel Weppen said:

Nope! You complained litteraly about an INT-Player not being capable to do something "usefull" during bloodmoon.

Maybe just wrong wording, but that is exactly how i understood your "problem".

With 1000 hours in the game I've lived through many horde nights, even while being the Int guy. There is no way in the world that I could imagine that I can't live through horde night after all those hours.

 

In particular I don't think many people miss the fact that it is entirely possible to put at least some points into other trees.

 

I did not that the int guy is not useful on horde night.  The closest thing to that that I did say is that he needs to live through horde night.

 

In other words he needs to also participate, and play the game, and have as much fun as the other guys who get to put maximum points into their favourite weapons.

 

That's all.  That is my only complaint.  The game more fun if the Int guy (or any other specialization) could fully spec into their favourite weapon while still being able to fully skill up into their selected support role.

[Liesel Weppen]

21 minutes ago, Tahaan said:

In other words he needs to also participate, and play the game, and have as much fun as the other guys who get to put maximum points into their favourite weapons.

If you don't like the part of the INT-guy, don't play the INT-guy.

 

Quote

The game more fun if the Int guy (or any other specialization) could fully spec into their favourite weapon while still being able to fully skill up into their selected support role.

And that's the point where min-max comes into hand. The int-guy can't play the blood moon as a berserk!

If your complaint is that he should be able to do it anyway, it makes the complete idea of taking roles invalid!

I don't know any other game where everybody is an allrounder and that just starts from Diablo I. There are roles, and the roles need to be taken. Complainig about one role is in some way not as effective of others reveals just a paradoxon.

 

So what you want is make all roles competitive? Why then even roles?

So on the one hand you don't want to live e.g without traps from the int-guy, but on the other hand, the int guy should not be needed to skill into traps? So you want to get traps for free? You also don't want to have concrete bases that require skills, but also for free?

If the int-guy is your heavy problem, why not trying to play without him? You will soon notice how much he is worth... or figure out that you can also live without him... then just do it. The game doesn't force to have one.... BESIDES YOU trying to MIN-MAX.

 

I can just repeat: The game is not about what you would like to have, but to make the best out of the things you really have. Everybody whishes to find a T6 auger on day one. But you most lilkely won't find one on day one. If you can't deal with that and just insist of "but i want to find a T6 auger on day one", stop playing 7d2d and look for another game... but i doubt you find any game that fits your needs, because what you seem to want takes away every gameplay in every game.

[Roland]

44 minutes ago, Tahaan said:

I never complained that an INT build can't use other weapons.  I complained about it being hard to put points into the weapons that I enjoy while also being the INT guy.  So basically I was called a Min-maxer just because I want to put points into a perk.

Then you explain yourself and your gameplay goals and your preferences so that people know your particular case is not about a need for efficiency per se but a desire to branch outward more easily. In your case I would suggest the forgettin elixir once you've crafted the workstations you need. That is your ticket to having fun if pulling the trigger on an unperked shotgun is not as much fun as pulling the trigger on a fully perked shotgun.

 

For myself, I have fun with ALL the weapons even knowing that I'm a specialist in only one or two of them.

[Liesel Weppen]

13 minutes ago, Roland said:

For myself, I have fun with ALL the weapons even knowing that I'm a specialist in only one or two of them.

I do that in early game, but sadly in mit to late game with the current skill system the difference between not or lesser skilled weapons becomes that enormous, that it's basically like throwing cotton balls onto enemies with un-/lessskilled weapons. So basically i always end up using the weapons i have the best skills for, not the weapons i prefer.

 

To make it worse, the skills for the right weapon do more damage than the weapon itself. So in the end, even a T4 shotgun plus their skills is way better than a T6 automatic rifle without automatic rifle skills.

That would be fine, if i's actively decide to use automatic rifles, but i don't decide for automatic rilfes, i decide for other perks that are contained in this skill path.

[Roland]

Well there is a way to respec and it seems to me that once you reach the point in the game where having all your points in your preferred weapon makes that much of a difference you've probably already mostly accomplished the purposes you put those points to and can now use them to get what you want for horde nights.

[meganoth]

I think the intention is that weapon quality and perks add about the same to damage output. So there is no surprise that a T4 shotgun (which is more than half way up the quality ladder) does more damage than an unskilled T6 weapon. BUT it is also much cheaper to get attributes and perks to the half-way point than it is to fully perk them. So with about 12 points in another perk tree you already can use maybe 75% of the power of your best weapon. That is not bad (in SP). I doubt trading in that ammo for your type of ammo (if even available) would get you more bang for the bullet.

 

 

[diegodgo87]

I'm very new to the game, only 70 hours, me and my friends start together couple weekends ago, but we come from Path Of Exile and we been playing together for 6 years that game. Knowing nothing about the game at the moment we saw the skill tree system everyone knows their role, of course Multiplayer is different, but one of my friends always love play support and he choose INT, in matter of fact he's stay at base all day while the others look for resources, and building, we deliver the stuff and he makes us bikes, we keep delivering resources and he make us bullets, one guy specialized in mining, he collect the ore and was the first to get a motorcycle, nobody complains at that because we all know that he need a vehicle to gather the farthest resources, he also get the Auger and the chainsaw.

During the horde nights the INT guy didn't want to shoot because he had no specialization at all in weapons, but he's not mad about it, he knows that he's character is a support and he provides support, that's it. 

In PoE forums or reddit people will call us min-maxers, why?, because we planned everything, who build, who shot, who will take Lucky Looter, that guy is the one who open the containers or safes, I want to have Lucky Looter too, but as member of the team I have to choose another branch for efficiency.

In the 33 days (in game) we played I killed 1800 zombies while the closer one has 950 kills and he's not complaining about it, he  knows he's role.

This Is a Multiplayer game that can be played SOLO, that doesn't mean that you can have it all. Choose well, choose wisely, do the best you can and never complaint about it.

[Roland]

28 minutes ago, diegodgo87 said:

During the horde nights the INT guy didn't want to shoot because he had no specialization at all in weapons

 

This is the only part of what you posted that I take any issue with. If the guy is perfectly happy to sit out horde night and enjoys supporting you guys and is having fun that way then that is great. But if he WANTS to play horde night with a weapon and is refraining because either he or the rest of you can't stop thinking about how it is taking him extra bullets to do what you guys could do with less-- well, then, that really stinks. If someone in the group isn't as efficient because they are shooting an unperked weapon then just provide extra ammo for them so they can still have fun and kill zombies.

 

This is the problem with the min-max philosophy as I see it. When it causes people to tell me I can't open a container I found because Pete has better lucky looter or your crew tells you to sit tight and not participate because you  won't be able to kill as effectively as the rest. I wouldn't ever play the game with people like that. Sure, what I pull out of a container might not be as good as what you could have pulled out of it but so what? Why do we have to get the best possible stuff sooner rather than later? Perhaps it will take me 3 bullets to kill that zombie compared to your 2 but tell me to sit out and my fourth bullet is going at you....

 

I'm not saying that is how you guys treated your buddy. I'm just saying that I've seen that behavior first-hand and it really rubs me the wrong way that some people put efficiency ahead of the wishes of their teammates or even themselves. I think your friend should have been able to participate (If he wanted to, of course)

 

[diegodgo87]

6 minutes ago, Roland said:

 

This is the only part of what you posted that I take any issue with. If the guy is perfectly happy to sit out horde night and enjoys supporting you guys and is having fun that way then that is great. But if he WANTS to play horde night with a weapon and is refraining because either he or the rest of you can't stop thinking about how it is taking him extra bullets to do what you guys could do with less-- well, then, that really stinks. If someone in the group isn't as efficient because they are shooting an unperked weapon then just provide extra ammo for them so they can still have fun and kill zombies.

 

This is the problem with the min-max philosophy as I see it. When it causes people to tell me I can't open a container I found because Pete has better lucky looter or your crew tells you to sit tight and not participate because you  won't be able to kill as effectively as the rest. I wouldn't ever play the game with people like that. Sure, what I pull out of a container might not be as good as what you could have pulled out of it but so what? Why do we have to get the best possible stuff sooner rather than later? Perhaps it will take me 3 bullets to kill that zombie compared to your 2 but tell me to sit out and my fourth bullet is going at you....

 

I'm not saying that is how you guys treated your buddy. I'm just saying that I've seen that behavior first-hand and it really rubs me the wrong way that some people put efficiency ahead of the wishes of their teammates or even themselves. I think your friend should have been able to participate (If he wanted to, of course)

 

Yeah you got it wrong, we keep telling him to shoot at the zombies, he's the one who don't want it, he thinks that as he does not have any perks at weapons is wasting ammo. 

EDIT: he carry a Junk turret and place and reload it, he also offered to shoot while we recharge our weapons

[Roland]

Like I said, I'm not saying that's how you treated your friend. But his attitude of not shooting because that would be a waste of ammo IS a min-maxer type of attitude which is perfectly fine if he is happy about it.

[diegodgo87]

1 minute ago, Roland said:

Like I said, I'm not saying that's how you treated your friend. But his attitude of not shooting because that would be a waste of ammo IS a min-maxer type of attitude which is perfectly fine if he is happy about it.

Yeah, and sorry for my English I learn watching movies and is not good. As I said is he's decision we been playing PoE together for 6 years and he is in his element, I will never have fun being a support, I don't know how he find that funny, but hey who I am to judge. We are min-maxers and with certain pride of it.

 

Side story: When we are looting Buildings everyone has his task, one guy breaches doors, then another with a shotgun enter the room and kill, when he says "clear" the "Looter" comes in and open the things, all that while another takes care the rearguard, when is done we move to the next door and repeat. Maybe Slow but efficient as hell.

And most important no man is left behind, if I broke my leg my friends stay with me or help me to build some crutches or bring the car and take me to the base. 

 

[Scyris]

8 hours ago, Liesel Weppen said:

Stop complaining about an INT-build "can't" use other weapons than junk turrets and stun batons and therefore do anything during horde night.

 

That is litteraly the definition of min-maxing and could also put into lexika as description for it.

Honestly? on nomad and warrior difficulty pretty much any weapon works with a decent tier and mods in it, even un perked, perking into them just saves more ammo XD. I don't use placed junk turrets or use them period as I feel they are overpowered due to how far you can be away from them and they still shoot, the distance you can be away from them for them to shoot needs to be lowered to 1-2 blocks max (1-2 meters in game), this way there is still a risk to using them, compared to now where you can drop 1 about 2 floors below you to kill the zombies then go down to loot them at 0 risk. This is going to get worse with a19, because now we have a stupid drone that follows us and automatically fires at things. I just hope it chugs gas like crazy and uses actual bullets for ammo and not just scrap iron.

29 minutes ago, Roland said:

Like I said, I'm not saying that's how you treated your friend. But his attitude of not shooting because that would be a waste of ammo IS a min-maxer type of attitude which is perfectly fine if he is happy about it.

 

I mostly melee things myself, as normal non-running zombies aren't worth the ammo other than maybe at night, single ferals I usually just melee to death too. Its a playstyle choice. I personally facepalm when people go into a poi wasting all this ammo on slow moving walking zombies, when a few club whacks would do the job even unspeced in them. That said I really wish weapons were not tied to stats, I HATE that aspect of 7 days to die so damn much. I wish there was 2 trees: melee and ranged. Melee weapons has melee weapons (duh) and shotguns, since they only have a 5 block range or so for max damage. While ranged points has all the ranged weapons including guns and bows. Base stat points in either stat adds headshot damage, then you can specilize in each weapon type as well. Instead of now where bows are agility, shoguns are str, machine guns are endurance etc.

 

The stat system works good for multiplayer games when your working with people, but it really screws people playing single player due to so many must have perks like the mining ones and such. First few perk points I get usually go into str and miner 69'er for block damage, as you will always be using something to bust into things.

 

I also find it really stupid how fireaxe's are so bad against zombies, I mean seriously, I know its meant to be a tool, but it should be a awesome weapon for splitting zombie skulls too, its so stupid that its not. It should get the headshot bonus from str stat like all melee weapons in str do, and maybe a entity damage bonus from miner 69'er since it is a tool your using to pike that zombie with.

[meganoth]

21 minutes ago, Scyris said:

Honestly? on nomad and warrior difficulty pretty much any weapon works with a decent tier and mods in it, even un perked, perking into them just saves more ammo XD. I don't use placed junk turrets or use them period as I feel they are overpowered due to how far you can be away from them and they still shoot, the distance you can be away from them for them to shoot needs to be lowered to 1-2 blocks max (1-2 meters in game), this way there is still a risk to using them, compared to now where you can drop 1 about 2 floors below you to kill the zombies then go down to loot them at 0 risk. This is going to get worse with a19, because now we have a stupid drone that follows us and automatically fires at things. I just hope it chugs gas like crazy and uses actual bullets for ammo and not just scrap iron.

 

I mostly melee things myself, as normal non-running zombies aren't worth the ammo other than maybe at night, single ferals I usually just melee to death too. Its a playstyle choice. I personally facepalm when people go into a poi wasting all this ammo on slow moving walking zombies, when a few club whacks would do the job even unspeced in them. That said I really wish weapons were not tied to stats, I HATE that aspect of 7 days to die so damn much. I wish there was 2 trees: melee and ranged. Melee weapons has melee weapons (duh) and shotguns, since they only have a 5 block range or so for max damage. While ranged points has all the ranged weapons including guns and bows. Base stat points in either stat adds headshot damage, then you can specilize in each weapon type as well. Instead of now where bows are agility, shoguns are str, machine guns are endurance etc.

 

The stat system works good for multiplayer games when your working with people, but it really screws people playing single player due to so many must have perks like the mining ones and such. First few perk points I get usually go into str and miner 69'er for block damage, as you will always be using something to bust into things.

 

I also find it really stupid how fireaxe's are so bad against zombies, I mean seriously, I know its meant to be a tool, but it should be a awesome weapon for splitting zombie skulls too, its so stupid that its not. It should get the headshot bonus from str stat like all melee weapons in str do, and maybe a entity damage bonus from miner 69'er since it is a tool your using to pike that zombie with.

The fireaxe isn't so awesome because you always need precious time to pry the axeblade out of the zombies skull 😉

[SylenThunder]

I'm curious about this.  Don't you get enough points to max INT AND a weapon tree?  You just need to level up more.

 

Or am I missing something really dumb and going INT somehow requires 250+ perk points?

 

(Full disclosure, I have never made a pure build of anything.)

[SylenThunder]

Well, turns out there were already threads on Min-Maxing anyway, so why don't we consolidate the discussion instead of having three threads on it yeah?