Random Stat Implementation

[Psychodabble]

I'm definitely here. I'm listening.

But the degree of stat variance is the important part.

 

So what about my suggestion of separated tiers with larger variance at the high end? My sense is that would meet everyone's goals.

[Gazz]

If higher QL had higher stat variance then you would be comparing stats even harder because they could be worse than a lower QL level item than they are now.

I'm not sure this is what everyone here is asking for.

[Laz Man]

This may sound dumb but what does the color represent mainly in A18? Number of Mod slots? Perhaps what needs fixing here is some type of label/display change.

[Psychodabble]

If higher QL had higher stat variance then you would be comparing stats even harder because they could be worse than a lower QL level item than they are now.

I'm not sure this is what everyone here is asking for.

 

I don't understand where you're coming from here. Did you look at the example in my earlier post? You can have both higher variance within tiers AND strict hierarchy of tiers. I gave a very simple example of how. I will repost it for you here:

 

For example, think about something like this, only talking about damage stats for simplicity's sake: if T1 has 1-10, T2 has 11-20, T3 has 21-30, T4 has 31-40, T5 has 41-65, and T6 has 66-100.

 

Statistical comparison would still be needed, but only WITHIN a tier and only at the highest levels. What about something like that?

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

This may sound dumb but what does the color represent mainly in A18? Number of Mod slots? Perhaps what needs fixing here is some type of label/display change.

 

Essentially, yes. As implemented the color only dictates mod slots as lower tier items can have better stats than higher tiers.

[Laz Man]

I don't understand where you're coming from here. Did you look at the example in my earlier post? You can have both higher variance within tiers AND strict hierarchy of tiers. I gave a very simple example of how. I will repost it for you here:

 

 

 

Statistical comparison would still be needed, but only WITHIN a tier and only at the highest levels. What about something like that?

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

 

 

Essentially, yes. As implemented the color only dictates mod slots as lower tier items can have better stats than higher tiers.

 

Thanks for the confirm. Then my next question does # of mod slots > then all other stats? If the answer to this question is no, then tiers/color needs to be associated with something else while number of mod slots demoted to just another random stat on items since people are treating the color system as the main measuring stick of quality.

[Limdood]

I tried a game with 20 minute days instead of 60....popping all the mods off my Q5 items every time if went to a trader or found a new T5-6 item might not be a big deal to you, but those seconds mattered big to me...sometimes it was the difference between getting back to turn in a quest and grab a new one for the night, or be stuck outside til morning, or ticking the last few minutes of daylight left halfway thru a POI because I found a new wrench and needed it decided now, rather than increase encumbrance for the whole clear.

 

If the variance is going to stay this big, then the comparison window needs to be a lot more responsive and intuitive, mainly in regards to comparing base item stats WITHOUT needing to remove mods.

[beHypE]

I wish we had the exact ranges for a specific weapon so we could actually talk facts instead of coming up with examples. No overlap seems better on paper but I doubt it is in practice because it makes the game super linear. Too much overlap is bad though, that's why discussion without factual numbers can be misleading.

 

What definitely should happen is being able at a glance to compare raw (unmodded) stats. It's a PITA having to empty all the mod slots everytime you wanna compare two items.

[Maynard69]

I wish we had the exact ranges for a specific weapon so we could actually talk facts instead of coming up with examples. No overlap seems better on paper but I doubt it is in practice because it makes the game super linear. Too much overlap is bad though, that's why discussion without factual numbers can be misleading.

 

What definitely should happen is being able at a glance to compare raw (unmodded) stats. It's a PITA having to empty all the mod slots everytime you wanna compare two items.

 

Agree, it would really just take using "Base stat(Current stat)" with "Current stat" highlighted green in the stats window. Instead of only showing current stat.

[Viktoriusiii]

I wish we had the exact ranges for a specific weapon so we could actually talk facts instead of coming up with examples. No overlap seems better on paper but I doubt it is in practice because it makes the game super linear. Too much overlap is bad though, that's why discussion without factual numbers can be misleading.

 

What definitely should happen is being able at a glance to compare raw (unmodded) stats. It's a PITA having to empty all the mod slots everytime you wanna compare two items.

 

Why is too much overlap a bad thing?

I don't want to sound cruel. I honestly don't... but from all that I've read, the only problem people have is that they are too lazy to look every stat up before scrapping... and that was precicely the point of this change. To make higher tiers better overall, but give that outlier some op stats that you prefer.

 

Here are SOME things I want you guys to take a look at. And I mean really look at:

 

1. do you compare T4 (with mods) vs T6? Because mods raise the stats by quite a bit, so the basestats might actually be lower (had that happen to me 3-4 times)

2. how many weapons of lower quality have you scrapped, before coming across a higher tier weapon that you scrapped? (my ratio is about 5:1 maybe 10:1) because if you only pay attention to the better low quality ones and ignore all the ones you scrap, of course you will feel like lower quality is always better

3. think about the bells curve (normal distribution). It basicially tells us that, say T2 has a 30% chance of beeing better than T4. That doesnt make T4 worse, it is just a numbersgame. in 70% of cases T4 is still better. And since there are 5 factors (damage, rpm, magsize, range, durability) it becomes extremely unlikely that a T2 is better than a T4 in all regards. Just because you don't care about 4 of them, doesnt mean that the T4 is worse just for you. (which is a good thing and exactly what this system is aiming at)

[Kalarro]

Why is too much overlap a bad thing?

 

Why is it good tho? Lets take it from another angle. Lets say we loot a weapon and it will have damage 23. What do you care if it is a T3 with a bad number or T2 with a good one?

i dont mind overlap, but whats the benefit of it? Why not just make the weapon T1: 10-15, T2: 16-20, T3: 21-25 and so on.

 

I see your arguments of why it isnt bad, but why is it good, why overcomplicate it? And Im a player who loves tons of stats and variables. but if they have a purpose

[Viktoriusiii]

Why is it good tho? Lets take it from another angle. Lets say we loot a weapon and it will have damage 23. What do you care if it is a T3 with a bad number or T2 with a good one?

i dont mind overlap, but whats the benefit of it? Why not just make the weapon T1: 10-15, T2: 16-20, T3: 21-25 and so on.

 

I see your arguments of why it isnt bad, but why is it good, why overcomplicate it? And Im a player who loves tons of stats and variables. but if they have a purpose

 

While progression in loot currently is much too fast, which, I hope, will be fixed next experimental...

When do you find T1 weapons? When do you find T4 weapons?

Do you think that if you find a T1 with an awesome stat early on it plays the same as if it had worse stats?

It is basicially a way to tell the player "it is better, but is it better FOR YOU?"

 

It is like in other looter shooter:

Just because it is better, doesnt mean it is better for YOU!

 

Lets say you have a T2 Ak withabove average stats. And you now have an ak with slightly below average stats.

If you have a lot of mods, you can fill the T4 with mods and it is again better (stat wise) than the T2 PLUS it has more utility (bigger mag, flashlight, scope and so on)

If you DON'T you can keep the T4 as a reserve until you find one.

 

 

Basicially what it all comes down to: They don't want you to think in numbers "oh its a TX, lets scrap that!"

And more "Ouh its a nice new weapon, its one tier lower, but I dont have enough mods anyway, lets compare them!"

Every weapon has a character now. I agree a tiny bit of balancing should be done * but overall it is a nice system that brings ME a lot of immersion and more accomplishment, since 7d2d is now a looter shooter and looting should be exciting.

 

 

*I would balance it like so:

Every tier has a max and a min total stat (DMG * 5 + RPM * 5 + Magsize * 50 + Durability <= XXX+Tier*500)

but within these stats, they can vary wildly!

So you might get a pistol with only 3 magazinesize but a power that rivals magnums, or low damage but smg like speed and so on, but OVERALL are they nearly always worse than higher tiers (slight overlap between tiers)

[theFlu]

Hmm..

"Weapon refurbishment kit"

Full repair, (chance to) Improve a random stat on a weapon slightly

Craft: A related weapon part, a repair kit, a related steel/iron bar ..

 

Would require tweaks to crafting, so not exactly hopeful - but would make the T6 always better, just may need some more work honing it

[beHypE]

Why is too much overlap a bad thing?

 

Because it defeats the purpose of having 6 quality ranks in the first place. Taking your logic to the extreme, if the only certainty I have comparing two items of different quality is the number of mod slots, we might aswell replace the quality system with a hidden iLvl like most games do and randomize mod slots based on the iLvl. Having a visual cue that is more often than not misleading is... well, misleading, and at best useless.

 

Before we take my words out of context, I'm not saying overlap is a bad thing, just that too much of it is.

[Viktoriusiii]

Because it defeats the purpose of having 6 quality ranks in the first place. Taking your logic to the extreme, if the only certainty I have comparing two items of different quality is the number of mod slots, we might aswell replace the quality system with a hidden iLvl like most games do and randomize mod slots based on the iLvl. Having a visual cue that is more often than not misleading is... well, misleading, and at best useless.

 

Before we take my words out of context, I'm not saying overlap is a bad thing, just that too much of it is.

 

Well... since you mention it...

After the weaponparts have been taken out... and the quality has been reduced to a 1-6 system... I actually quite like the sound of this.

Just make every weapon just the weapon and let us compare stats...

I mean then ppl would be even more angry and say "GIVE US COLOR BACK! I want to have an indicator for how good a weapon is without having to compare every stat" but I like the idea

 

That gives weapons asort of... special feel to it.

 

But I guess that would mean that all quality gear (armor tools and so on) would need this treatment too... which... I guess isn't so bad, but ruins the crafting visibility! Now you can be certain you crafted a ♥♥♥♥ty T3 tool, but otherwise you would complain "I have 4 points in crafting it, why is it worse than the one I found early???"

[Kalarro]

Well... since you mention it...

After the weaponparts have been taken out... and the quality has been reduced to a 1-6 system... I actually quite like the sound of this.

Just make every weapon just the weapon and let us compare stats...

 

But quality isnt just an indicator for the player, but also used to give you worse or better items depending on gamestage, lucky looter and such factors.

[Viktoriusiii]

But quality isnt just an indicator for the player, but also used to give you worse or better items depending on gamestage, lucky looter and such factors.

 

That would be handled via the "hidden level" Hype was talking about.

 

I like the general visibility "oh its a T4 I definatly take that with me and compare it" or "ah just a T1 I can scrap that since I have a T5".

You still have to compare tiers close to each other, but a T1 is never better (in my experience) than a T4-6.

Sometimes they have one stat were they are marginally better, but never worth it.

[Kalarro]

That would be handled via the "hidden level" Hype was talking about.

 

I like the general visibility "oh its a T4 I definatly take that with me and compare it" or "ah just a T1 I can scrap that since I have a T5".

You still have to compare tiers close to each other, but a T1 is never better (in my experience) than a T4-6.

Sometimes they have one stat were they are marginally better, but never worth it.

 

I dont know, I dont really mind about this topic, but it looks like we already have quality system, and you are talking about inventing a new hidden system for the same puspose, with the only benefit of needing to check the items more carefully. Not sure it's worth.

[Viktoriusiii]

I dont know, I dont really mind about this topic, but it looks like we already have quality system, and you are talking about inventing a new hidden system for the same puspose, with the only benefit of needing to check the items more carefully. Not sure it's worth.

 

I'm not

Just spinning BeHypes idea to the extreme and I found I actually like it

 

But I'm totally fine with the system as it is now! I love the random stats every weapon can have.

So lategame you can have a total dud T6 weapon and craft an awesome T5 weapon, but you might also only craft duds until you find that awesome T6 weapon...

 

I like it

[Laz Man]

The issue I see here is what everyone defines as quality. The ones who feel damage is the defining value of quality are the ones that probably are most confused as it's hard to accept a low tier item can be better them a high tier item (damage wise) when reality the tier system just defines the number of mod slots.

 

Edit: @Gazz would it be easy to total all stats together (weighted values) and then use that number to represent quality instead? That way a max roll t2 item (all stats except mod slots) would be t5 or t6 in color despite the poor mod slots? I think that would fix alot of the gripes here.

[Kalarro]

the tier system just defines the number of mod slots.

 

 

wasnt that changed in a18?

[Laz Man]

wasnt that changed in a18?

 

Dunno, I'm just going off what psycho said in here. I can dive into the xmls to see when I get a chance.

[Viktoriusiii]

[...]when reality the tier system just defines the number of mod slots.

 

No. No this is not what is happening. Sorry to call BS. Read my first post:

Disagree.

Let me show you in numbers:

Lets say each stat is the quality of the item x10, with a variance of 10

so

T1: 0-20

T2: 10-30

T3: 20-40

T4: 30-50

T5: 40-60

T6: 50-70

 

This is only an example and items may have a variance of 20 or even 30.

BUT higher tiers ARE better. As they have a bellcurve that is pushed to the right. So while individual T6 weapons might be worse than individual T5 weapons, OVERALL T6 is better in every way.

[Psychodabble]

No. No this is not what is happening. Sorry to call BS. Read my first post:

 

 

This is only an example and items may have a variance of 20 or even 30.

BUT higher tiers ARE better. As they have a bellcurve that is pushed to the right. So while individual T6 weapons might be worse than individual T5 weapons, OVERALL T6 is better in every way.

 

The problem here is that you aren't using real numbers. You admit that you don't know whether the overlap is 10 or 20 or 30. The higher that overlap is, the less relevant tiers actually are other than counting mod slots. Obviously saying T1s compare to T6s is a strawman argument, but at the high end of the scale (Ts 4-6) the MOST significant, consistent difference I've observed between items is number of mod slots.

[Psychodabble]

Why is too much overlap a bad thing?

I don't want to sound cruel. I honestly don't... but from all that I've read, the only problem people have is that they are too lazy to look every stat up before scrapping... and that was precicely the point of this change. To make higher tiers better overall, but give that outlier some op stats that you prefer.

 

Here are SOME things I want you guys to take a look at. And I mean really look at:

 

1. do you compare T4 (with mods) vs T6? Because mods raise the stats by quite a bit, so the basestats might actually be lower (had that happen to me 3-4 times)

2. how many weapons of lower quality have you scrapped, before coming across a higher tier weapon that you scrapped? (my ratio is about 5:1 maybe 10:1) because if you only pay attention to the better low quality ones and ignore all the ones you scrap, of course you will feel like lower quality is always better

3. think about the bells curve (normal distribution). It basicially tells us that, say T2 has a 30% chance of beeing better than T4. That doesnt make T4 worse, it is just a numbersgame. in 70% of cases T4 is still better. And since there are 5 factors (damage, rpm, magsize, range, durability) it becomes extremely unlikely that a T2 is better than a T4 in all regards. Just because you don't care about 4 of them, doesnt mean that the T4 is worse just for you. (which is a good thing and exactly what this system is aiming at)

 

It has nothing to do with laziness. I can't speak for anyone but myself, but looking up every stat on every item just isn't FUN for me. I appreciate an intuitive design that allows me to gather information as quickly as possible, make an informed decision, and MOVE ON with my gameplay. Comparing stats is certainly fun for some people and you are clearly one of those people. There's nothing wrong with that, but I'd suggest that expecting to find that kind of fun in this kind of game is a bit misguided. Maybe I'm wrong, I expect the open-world survival genre to be more streamlined and action-focused as opposed to stat-focused like an RPG or ARPG.

 

1) I take the mods off. That's definitely a big part of the problem as taking the mods off is a major PITA, as others have said.

 

2) That's completely irrelevant. Lower tier items with lower stats are the expected result. The issue here is all about higher tier items with lower stats. The relevant question is how many items of the same or higher tier do you find before finding one with superior stats. In my experience that number is between 5 and 20 when trying to upgrade from T4 items and that's way too many, IMO.

 

3) Where are these numbers coming from? Are they real or just your assumption?

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

Because it defeats the purpose of having 6 quality ranks in the first place. Taking your logic to the extreme, if the only certainty I have comparing two items of different quality is the number of mod slots, we might aswell replace the quality system with a hidden iLvl like most games do and randomize mod slots based on the iLvl. Having a visual cue that is more often than not misleading is... well, misleading, and at best useless.

 

Before we take my words out of context, I'm not saying overlap is a bad thing, just that too much of it is.

 

Agreed. Even if some amount of overlap between tiers is desirable (although I honestly can't see a reason why it is) the degree is just too high right now, IMO. We might as well go back to 600 QLs.

[Laz Man]

Okay, im home now and here is what is under the hood.

 

See Pistol code below from items.xml

 

This is my initial thoughts on what I can make out.

 

Mod Slot Range: 1 to 4 slots possible (t1&t2 - 1 slot, t3&t4 - 2 slots, t5 - 3 slots, t6 - 4 slots)

 

Entity/Block Bonus Damage: Can vary randomly from 10-50% more damage across t2 through t6 quality. It is unclear if this implies if higher tiers have a higher chance at more damage or if the "tier" variable was used only exclude bonus damage from t1. Since there is no percentage value that I can see defined, this may imply that the full damage range can occur across all tiers (except the excluded t1 of course ). It is worth noting that the base entity/block damage has an random spread of +/- 15% regardless of quality. So there is "Double RNG" at work here. RNG calc for the initial damage values then a 2nd RNG calc for the bonus damage on top.

 

DegradationMax: Can vary randomly from 250 to 450 across t1 through t6 quality. It is unclear if this implies if higher tiers have a higher chance at more DegradationMax. However, it is questionable why the "tier" variable was used when no tiers were excluded from the specified range. Since there is no percentage value that I can see defined, this may imply that the full degradationMax range can occur across all tiers.

 

IN CONCLUSION: The only thing the tiers / colors guarantee are the number of mod slots while there are tier based calculations for a couple of stats only (damage and degradation).

 

Afterthoughts: I wonder what "ModPowerBonus" is for? @Gazz.

 

<effect_group name="gunPistol">
	<passive_effect name="MaxRange" operation="base_set" value="50"/>
	<passive_effect name="DamageFalloffRange" operation="base_set" value="18"/>
	<passive_effect name="DamageFalloffRange" operation="perc_add" value="-.2,.2"/> <!-- random effective rng -->

	<!--<passive_effect name="EntityDamage" operation="perc_add" value="0"/>
	<passive_effect name="BlockDamage" operation="perc_add" value="0"/>-->
	<passive_effect name="DamageModifier" operation="perc_add" value="-.8" tags="earth"/>
	<passive_effect name="DamageModifier" operation="perc_add" value="2" tags="wood"/>

	<passive_effect name="RoundsPerMinute" operation="base_set" value="180"/>
	<passive_effect name="BurstRoundCount" operation="base_set" value="1"/>

	<passive_effect name="MagazineSize" operation="base_set" value="15"/>
	<passive_effect name="ReloadSpeedMultiplier" operation="base_set" value="1"/> <!-- 2s -->
	<passive_effect name="ModSlots" operation="base_set" value="1,1,2,2,3,4" tier="1,2,3,4,5,6"/>
	<passive_effect name="ModPowerBonus" operation="perc_add" value=".10" tags="EntityDamage,BlockDamage"/>
	<passive_effect name="ModPowerBonus" operation="base_add" value="200" tags="EconomicValue"/>

	<passive_effect name="EntityDamage" operation="perc_add" value="-.15,.15"/> <!-- random rng -->
	<passive_effect name="EntityDamage" operation="perc_add" value=".1,.5" tier="2,6"/> <!-- tier bonus -->
	<passive_effect name="BlockDamage" operation="perc_add" value="-.15,.15"/> <!-- random BlockDmg -->
	<passive_effect name="BlockDamage" operation="perc_add" value=".1,.5" tier="2,6"/> <!-- tier bonus -->

	<passive_effect name="DegradationMax" operation="perc_add" value="-.2,.2" tags="perkGunslinger"/> <!-- random DegMax -->
	<passive_effect name="RoundsPerMinute" operation="perc_add" value="-.05,.05"/> <!-- random APM -->
	<passive_effect name="MagazineSize" operation="perc_add" value="-.122,.122"/> <!-- random MagazineSize -->
	<passive_effect name="WeaponHandling" operation="perc_add" value="-.08,.08"/> <!-- random WeaponHandling -->

	<passive_effect name="SpreadDegreesVertical" operation="base_set" value="1.5"/>
	<passive_effect name="SpreadDegreesHorizontal" operation="base_set" value="1.5"/>
	<passive_effect name="SpreadMultiplierAiming" operation="base_set" value=".4"/>
	<passive_effect name="SpreadMultiplierCrouching" operation="base_set" value=".8"/>
	<passive_effect name="SpreadMultiplierWalking" operation="base_set" value="1.5"/>
	<passive_effect name="SpreadMultiplierRunning" operation="base_set" value="2.2"/>

	<passive_effect name="KickDegreesVerticalMin" operation="base_set" value=".8"/>
	<passive_effect name="KickDegreesVerticalMax" operation="base_set" value=".8"/>

	<passive_effect name="KickDegreesHorizontalMin" operation="base_set" value="-.25"/>
	<passive_effect name="KickDegreesHorizontalMax" operation="base_set" value=".25"/>

	<passive_effect name="IncrementalSpreadMultiplier" operation="base_set" value="2.0"/>
	<passive_effect name="WeaponHandling" operation="base_set" value=".95"/> <!-- crosshair reset speed -->

	<passive_effect name="DegradationMax" operation="base_set" value="250,450" tier="1,6" tags="perkGunslinger,9mmGun"/>
	<passive_effect name="DegradationPerUse" operation="base_set" value="1" tags="perkGunslinger,9mmGun"/>
</effect_group>