Viktoriusiii Posted October 24, 2019 Share Posted October 24, 2019 Yes, I think your main question has been diluted after many others have posted. Based on viks posts, based on his experience, he feels the higher tiered items are generally better than lowered tiered versions (e.g. overlapping dmg ranges). And my takeaway is, that T1 has a base of 100, T2 110, T3 120, ... , T6 150 So that the range is T1: 85-115 (100) T2: 93-126 (110) T3: 102-138 (120) T4: 110-150 (130) T5: 119-161 (140) T6: 127-173 (150) This was more or less confirmed. So T2 is doesnt have a chance to be better than T6, but T3 has a super small chance that one stat is higher than the ones from the T6 if its a bad one. Maybe they can slightly tweak those numbers, but it is pretty much where it should be... A solution that would solve both our "problems" would be to raise the "bonus per tier" (currently 10) to something higher... but then either T1 would need to suffer heavily and become even worse or T6 would be even stronger than they already are. But I honestly don't see the need. The chance of a T4 beeing better than a T6 is very slim (it has to be a great T4 and a very bad T6) and I feel you just got unlucky or have a positivity bias (so you only notice when something is supporting your idea but ignore it when its not). Because for me the quoted stats more or less coincide with what I've seen ingame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qyzer Posted October 24, 2019 Share Posted October 24, 2019 Again, I LOVE random stats. I don't love that quality colors are essentially irrelevant for anything except number of mod slots even if an item tends to average better or worse over the entire spectrum of weapons across all games. However, that spread is way too great in my experience and I have repeatedly found weapons two tiers lower that were better than their supposed upgrade. If I have to compare all my items across 3 levels of tiers against each other then I don't need a quality color to show me the number of slots, I just need a trait called " mods slots" as a part of the gear stats with a number next to it. It would even be nice if it too can vary. I'm fine if you can find a great weapon with 1 mod slot. So I'm either going to mod out the quality (if random stats still work) or make items only vary within their own quality tier (if they don't). And to those doing it, please stop misrepresenting people who don't like the system as people who don't understand it. I totally understand it, I looked at the XMLs, I did the math (I'm half tempted to write a python program to generate a CSV that charts every items values, though I bet Gazz already has something like that). I play the game (too much), I tried it out, I don't like it. If this is what TFP want, fine, I'll mod it out. If they are still open to feedback (since it's an alpha and experimental still), then I'm telling them that it's not a helpful system for me. I'm not going to pretend I speak for anyone else, but I do know that I'm not alone from specific statements made to me about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laz Man Posted October 25, 2019 Share Posted October 25, 2019 Again, I LOVE random stats. I don't love that quality colors are essentially irrelevant for anything except number of mod slots even if an item tends to average better or worse over the entire spectrum of weapons across all games. However, that spread is way too great in my experience and I have repeatedly found weapons two tiers lower that were better than their supposed upgrade. If I have to compare all my items across 3 levels of tiers against each other then I don't need a quality color to show me the number of slots, I just need a trait called " mods slots" as a part of the gear stats with a number next to it. It would even be nice if it too can vary. I'm fine if you can find a great weapon with 1 mod slot. So I'm either going to mod out the quality (if random stats still work) or make items only vary within their own quality tier (if they don't). And to those doing it, please stop misrepresenting people who don't like the system as people who don't understand it. I totally understand it, I looked at the XMLs, I did the math (I'm half tempted to write a python program to generate a CSV that charts every items values, though I bet Gazz already has something like that). I play the game (too much), I tried it out, I don't like it. If this is what TFP want, fine, I'll mod it out. If they are still open to feedback (since it's an alpha and experimental still), then I'm telling them that it's not a helpful system for me. I'm not going to pretend I speak for anyone else, but I do know that I'm not alone from specific statements made to me about it. Yep, you nailed it. The rub is the labeling system not the random stats so much. If everyone unanimously agreed that mod slots is the defining variable of an items quality this thread probably wouldnt be here. Hehe. I am sure they can figure it out or people will just adapt. 😎 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viktoriusiii Posted October 25, 2019 Share Posted October 25, 2019 Yep, you nailed it. The rub is the labeling system not the random stats so much. If everyone unanimously agreed that mod slots is the defining variable of an items quality this thread probably wouldnt be here. Hehe. I am sure they can figure it out or people will just adapt. but... its not. If you said you wanted a better visual aid with comparing two items I would agree... But they ARE better. Just not every weapon in every aspect. I... I am lost for words here. HIGHER TIERS HAVE HIGHER STATS. I am not good with exel... but do you not know what a bell curve is? It is a diagram of probability. This is a bell curve. Although men are generally taller than women, there are still women that are taller than some men. And now take this graph and copy paste it with weapon quality and stats. T6 are better than all lower Tiers, but SOME lower Tier weapons are better than SOME T6 weapons. The only consistently "better" thing are modslots (which also raise the stats improving it further) but that doesn't mean that the other stats aren't better. It is possible to have a T3 weapon with better dmg than a T6 weapon... its just very unlikely. And the closer those Tiers are, the more likely it becomes. T6 is still better than the lower tiers, even if the individual weapons might sometimes not reflect this. I... can't explain it any better... The ONLY THING I can think of, is that you want to lower the deviation in stats so that they can only rival their neighboring tiers... but that again defeats the purpose of this system that specificially aims to give you the choice between a T3 weapon with better stats or a T6 weapon with 2 extra modslots (which, when filled are nearly always better than a T3) Yeah, I think I'm done on this topic. Vik and Gazz like it, so who cares how many people don't? Yay for mods! What? WHAT?... Yeah I think I'm just gonna leave it here if that is what you think I am saying since I obviuously don't get my message across Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psychodabble Posted October 25, 2019 Author Share Posted October 25, 2019 Yeah, I think I'm done on this topic. Vik and Gazz like it, so who cares how many people don't? Yay for mods! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laz Man Posted October 25, 2019 Share Posted October 25, 2019 Vik, save your breadth. No one is disagreeing with you lol... This is the issue: It just feels bad when you're hoping and hoping for an upgrade, you manage to find a T6 of the item type you need and start to get excited, then you check the stats and see it's crap. The thought is that color (labeling) is misleading. Especially because historically the colors were used as definite (not maybe) indicators that one item is better then another. In A18 this is no longer the case in some instances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viktoriusiii Posted October 25, 2019 Share Posted October 25, 2019 If everyone unanimously agreed that mod slots is the defining variable of an items quality this thread probably wouldnt be here. But... I disagree with you? o_o Like yeah its definatly a part of it... but the better stats are pretty defining as well... A "perfect" T6 can make DOUBLE the dmg a T1 can do... that is pretty defining for me... more than having one more modslot I'm sorry that I can't let this go... but I have no clue as to what the problem with this is, now that we KNOW that higher tiers have better stats... if you want, lets talk in a discord or something... because I can not understand this, even though I want to... and its driving me mad - - - Updated - - - Vik, save your breadth. No one is disagreeing with you lol... This is the issue: The thought is that color (labeling) is misleading. Especially because historically the colors were used as definite (not maybe) indicators that one item is better then another. In A18 this is no longer the case in some instances. Its not misleading... it is in 95% of cases still an upgrade. But with the rest i can agree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laz Man Posted October 25, 2019 Share Posted October 25, 2019 But... I disagree with you? o_o Like yeah its definatly a part of it... but the better stats are pretty defining as well... A "perfect" T6 can make DOUBLE the dmg a T1 can do... that is pretty defining for me... more than having one more modslot I'm sorry that I can't let this go... but I have no clue as to what the problem with this is, now that we KNOW that higher tiers have better stats... if you want, lets talk in a discord or something... because I can not understand this, even though I want to... and its driving me mad - - - Updated - - - Its not misleading... it is in 95% of cases still an upgrade. But with the rest i can agree Sorry it's not worth my time honestly. Your way overthinking what is being questioned here. I think my fingers are done lol... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meganoth Posted October 25, 2019 Share Posted October 25, 2019 but... its not. If you said you wanted a better visual aid with comparing two items I would agree... But they ARE better. Just not every weapon in every aspect. I... I am lost for words here. HIGHER TIERS HAVE HIGHER STATS. I am not good with exel... but do you not know what a bell curve is? It is a diagram of probability. [ATTACH=CONFIG]30096[/ATTACH] Everyone here gets this. And it isn't the problem. You look at the mechanism behind the game not at the game. For a player it isn't important to know whether the weapon he got in a box had a better chance for good values aka came from a better loot table. For a player at that moment the actual stats of the weapon he found are important. Example: Say you find a q3 axe with 50 block damage. On another occasion you find a q4 axe with 50 block damage. In neither case is it important that the second axe had a better loot table to choose its block damage from. You could even argue that a roleplaying player should not even know about the internal mechanisms how his weapon is roled, all he really needs to know is how to better his chances to get good weapons. There is another problem here: If the bell curve works you find lets say 4 q3 axes for every q4 axe. If on average one of those q3 axes has better stats than the q4 axe, the subjective but wrong impression would be that q4 is really worse than q3. This wouldn't be a problem if the color code was strictly equivalent to the number of mod slots. But it isn't at the moment, q1 and q2 have the same number of slots, q3 and q4 also. There are two solutions to the second problem: Either they throw away two of the colors. Or they tie another stat to color so that a better color means a better value in that stat. In my opinion durability would work best for that (EDIT: ...because every item with quality has that stat at the moment). An internal loot table won't work. ------- Don't get me wrong. I do like the system as it is now, with overlapping stat values. I like that you can have a q6 weapon with average damage but a a magazine the size of Manhattan. Or q1 weapon with fantastic damage but you need to reload every 4 shots. It just needs a better comparison UI and the color codes have to have a significance (outside internal loot tables). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viktoriusiii Posted October 25, 2019 Share Posted October 25, 2019 Everyone here gets this. And it isn't the problem. You look at the mechanism behind the game not at the game. For a player it isn't important to know whether the weapon he got in a box had a better chance for good values aka came from a better loot table. For a player at that moment the actual stats of the weapon he found are important. Example: Say you find a q3 axe with 50 block damage. On another occasion you find a q4 axe with 50 block damage. In neither case is it important that the second axe had a better loot table to choose its block damage from. You could even argue that a roleplaying player should not even know about the internal mechanisms how his weapon is roled, all he really needs to know is how to better his chances to get good weapons. There is another problem here: If the bell curve works you find lets say 4 q3 axes for every q4 axe. If on average one of those q3 axes has better stats than the q4 axe, the subjective but wrong impression would be that q4 is really worse than q3. This wouldn't be a problem if the color code was strictly equivalent to the number of mod slots. But it isn't at the moment, q1 and q2 have the same number of slots, q3 and q4 also. There are two solutions to the second problem: Either they throw away two of the colors. Or they tie another stat to color so that a better color means a better value in that stat. In my opinion durability would work best for that. An internal loot table won't work. ------- Don't get me wrong. I do like the system as it is now, with overlapping stat values. I like that you can have a q6 weapon with average damage but a a magazine the size of Manhattan. Or q1 weapon with fantastic damage but you need to reload every 4 shots. It just needs a better comparison UI and the color codes have to have a significance (outside internal loot tables). So is it really just the better visibility? Because that was something I agreed with like 10 posts ago... but ppl said multiple times that higher tiers are only different because of modslots... So here again: I agree that there should be a better visual indication of how good the weapon is. Maybe make it like "60 (-3)" with the () indicating the base value of that tier. So 63 is the base value and you can have "75(+12)" next to it. 100% agreed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam the Waster Posted October 25, 2019 Share Posted October 25, 2019 Damage Rounds per minute/attacksperminute(for melee) Magazine Size Range Durability Armor, effect resistance, sound detection, staminausage, mobility and durability for armor + Modslots Sooo... yeah huu i thought i was only damage! but maybe sometimes some states would be lowered but another would be higher like a spear may have much less durability but much more damage! etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meganoth Posted October 25, 2019 Share Posted October 25, 2019 but maybe sometimes some states would be lowered but another would be higher Yes, that is exactly like it is right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viktoriusiii Posted October 25, 2019 Share Posted October 25, 2019 huu i thought i was only damage! but maybe sometimes some states would be lowered but another would be higher like a spear may have much less durability but much more damage! etc that is exactly what I meant by weapons having "character" now. Do I want my T2 Shotgun with 20 dgm (normal is ~8-11) that has only 4 shots or do I want my T6 shotgun with 14 dmg with 13 shots, faster rate of fire and better range with 4 mods? I gave another "fix" to this problem ppl are having: Make every tier have a fixed overall stat that is always better than lower tiers (so no overlap, but still varying within the tiers) so lets say 300 + Tier * 50. T1 Weapons would now have 350 statpoints(+-30) to distribute randomly, while T6 would have 600 statpoints. But make the distribution even more varied then it is now. One T1 weapon that put all into mag size has now 50 rounds but nearly no damage and fires slow, while a more balanced T6 has a lower magazine but still overall it is always better. Would that fix your guy's problem? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam the Waster Posted October 25, 2019 Share Posted October 25, 2019 that is exactly what I meant by weapons having "character" now. Do I want my T2 Shotgun with 20 dgm (normal is ~8-11) that has only 4 shots or do I want my T6 shotgun with 14 dmg with 13 shots, faster rate of fire and better range with 4 mods? I gave another "fix" to this problem ppl are having: Make every tier have a fixed overall stat that is always better than lower tiers (so no overlap, but still varying within the tiers) so lets say 300 + Tier * 50. T1 Weapons would now have 350 statpoints(+-30) to distribute randomly, while T6 would have 600 statpoints. But make the distribution even more varied then it is now. One T1 weapon that put all into mag size has now 50 rounds but nearly no damage and fires slow, while a more balanced T6 has a lower magazine but still overall it is always better. Would that fix your guy's problem? i was just a idea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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