I feel Pigeon holed. Direction for the game?

[PixelLife]

I'm a little confused about the game direction now and what to do and I feel like im getting pigeon holed into a paticular play style.

 

Im a builder at heart and I like the idea that im able to try and build a base to withstand the horde, but with each recent patch It seem the direction the game is going is to not have a horde base at all. Heres what I mean:

 

- Previously I was a underground bunker person, but then Digging zombies where introduced

- I changed it to a overground fort, but they they updated AI pathing

- I adapted to "Pathing Base" build, but now they have Demolition zombies

- Adapt to not have a horde base and run at night, Zombie speed are increased.

 

Currently in B149, I have either few options left from what I can see, Ride around on bike all night (which is not run and boring) find a cheesy ass base build that may result in abuse of a glitchy mechanics (like floating bases), run around with mass amounts of grenades (not that fun for me)

 

So to my question, how does the the game/ TFP want me to play? Becuase im running out of options now. Does any one feel like their options are being limited?

 

Side note: I do like the New perk system. This is specifically, just for the overall playstyle.

[Kalarro]

There is one thing that doesnt make sense for me in your post.

 

Im a builder at heart and I like the idea that im able to try and build a base to withstand the horde

 

Previously I was a underground bunker person, but then Digging zombies where introduced

 

One is the opposite of the other. Im a builder that focuses omn having good defenses and having a base the zombies cant reach is the least thing I would want

[Damocles]

You can build as fancy as you want. Just make a separate horde base then.

[Psychodabble]

Active defense bases with traps are back on the menu. The zombie AI isn't done yet, but it has been randomized to the point that A16 and previous bases styles are viable again. The zeds don't all go to the same weak point anymore, so it's possible to build a base and defend it again without making a gauntlet for them to run through (pathing cheese). If you're still finding it too hard to defend, lower Zed block damage.

 

I'm a builder too, and I haven't enjoyed a build this much for a long time.

[Katitof]

Its almost as if you are not supposed to have completely imprevious base and are not supposed to be fully safe during blood moon, eh?

[P!nk]

I am also a fellow builder-at-heart, but I also have a liking to being the sneaky-sneak type of gamer in RPGs.

These two do not mix well at the beginning of a playthrough in A18 - But it got better in the later stages, and I do not mind one bit.

Anyways!

 

I'm enjoying building our horde base. We are 3 regulars, playing on a dedicated server, where I am the builder and the others are the gatherers. I focus on getting our horde base up and running, including repairs, electricity and what-not, while the two others are gathering almost all of the materials needed, including food, ammo etc. While all of this is going on, I'm also building another house for us, because our gamestage made us realize, that having our home within our horde base, was a huuuuge mistake.

 

I really like that we have to adapt to the changes and step up to the challenges that the developers are throwing at us.

[minisith]

What is wrong with having a hoard base and a permanent base? Only the 7 day hoard is the base killer. Any other day or night is easier.

Lots of people have called underground bases as a cheesey base build. Play the game how ever you want, even if it is with easier zombies or no zombies. The option of zombie damage dealing 25% to blocks might work for your play through. It is quite fun having the game setting closer to George Romero style zombie world where zombies walk all the time and the player and zombie block damage is really reduced. I would love to reduce the block damage further to say 5-10% so the player has to scavenge as breaking stuff or mining is to much of a pain. But zombies do not act like zombie Superman digging through concrete and metal.

[beHypE]

Hey it almost feels like the game evolves so that it keeps being challenging... HOW DARE THEY ?!

[Jeraal]

Some call things challenging, some call the same things tedious. Our camps will probably never find a common ground. One side is going to be happy and the other will be scouring the mod forum for things to make it fun again. A17 made the game a lot less fun for me and A18 is not as un-fun to me as A17.

[Kalarro]

Some call things challenging, some call the same things tedious. Our camps will probably never find a common ground. One side is going to be happy and the other will be scouring the mod forum for things to make it fun again. A17 made the game a lot less fun for me and A18 is not as un-fun to me as A17.

 

Exactly. Players who like to spend most of their time fighting instead of other things always use the argument "you just want to stay in base to make the game easier". Like if fighting was hard. I play this game bc the defense building is awesome and I dont spend 80% of the time outtside fighting bc it is less fun, not harder. I try my base defenses to be as autosuficient as possible and I think that is much harder than just m60ing the zombies. I play focused on my base bc its more fun, not easier. And I still love go looting, just not over 50% of the time.

[RipClaw]

Some call things challenging, some call the same things tedious. Our camps will probably never find a common ground. One side is going to be happy and the other will be scouring the mod forum for things to make it fun again. A17 made the game a lot less fun for me and A18 is not as un-fun to me as A17.

 

What bothers me is that base building doesn't seem to matter anymore. It's only about guns.

 

You build the simplest base design that even a beginner without any experience can build. With enough weapons and ammunition you can defend it without any problems. It even works completely without a base.

 

I did a few tests with the demolisher. There is no trap that would do enough damage to kill him quickly. An overkill of traps will be necessary. But if you have a fully modified M60 with drum magazine and AP ammo he will be dead in a matter of seconds.

[Kalarro]

What bothers me is that base building doesn't seem to matter anymore. It's only about guns.

 

You build the simplest base design that even a beginner without any experience can build. With enough weapons and ammunition you can defend it without any problems. It even works completely without a base.

 

I did a few tests with the demolisher. There is no trap that would do enough damage to kill him quickly. An overkill of traps will be necessary. But if you have a fully modified M60 with drum magazine and AP ammo he will be dead in a matter of seconds.

 

And if you say so, you are a noob who wants to play passively and not fight zombies.

[Viktoriusiii]

#evenamastermisunderstandsironysometimes

[Kalarro]

Do you know what a "tower defense" game is?

Not only noobs play that. And 7d2d is one in part.

Therefor it should be possible if you want to be a builder.

If I loot for 7 days I should be able to defend myself on hordenight.

 

If I build for 7 days I should be able to be defended by my base on hordenight.

 

It is a simple principle, really.

 

I think you understood my post the other way around. im complaining players say that, not saying it myself.

[Viktoriusiii]

I think you understood my post the other way around. im complaining players say that, not saying it myself.

 

sorry changed my post

I've read that far too often on this forum... especially form TFPs... although they added trapxp... so I guess I cant be mad at them

[Kalarro]

sorry changed my post

I've read that far too often on this forum... especially form TFPs... although they added trapxp... so I guess I cant be mad at them

 

Lol yeah. I had a discussion with several of them at the same time like 2 years ago, about traps xp. I would never thought they would add it after how hard they talked against it. Im happy anyway.

[Jihh]

I have a two bases (as many others do). One common base with just some spikes around it, to kill off screamer and a bloodmoon night base. The second one I usually build in a modular way, so if zombies manage to (nearly) break one module, I just change to the next module. They need to break every single module, if they want to get to me. Just a breach won't get them anything. That way I not only make use of more building blocks, but also more spikes, since every module has spikes.

Up until now (I'm building like that for at least a year) I haven't lost a single module, due to changing to the next in time. In A17 I was able to make the first four modules out of concrete in the first week, but thanks to the change to cement bags, I now use flagstone. It still works well enough.

Another advantage of a modular base is that you can easily expand your base with relatively small costs and a good costs to protection ratio. Instead of upgrading my flagstone modules, I just add concrete modules. The costs are the same (adding was cheaper than upgrading in A17, so in A17 there was no point to upgrade ever, as long as there is free space), but I keep my flagstone modules. I add 2 modules per week, until more modules would just make repairing more tedious without adding more noteworthy safety (in the sense of they weren't threatening at all in the last couple of weeks). At that point I rather add some traps and finally upgrade my flagstone modules, so I have less materials to care for.

 

I'll have to see how it works out with demolishers, since I haven't seen one in my solo game so far. But I'm confident they will just increase my repairing costs/time.

[Mhyth]

The impression I get is that the design direction is to have the players actively fight the zombies on hoard night. Reading your own listing of changes, each eliminates some method of avoiding the fight or having structures kill the zombies instead of the player participating. The recent changes to zombie behavior where they don't all funnel to a couple weak points opens back up the viability of overground forts as you called them. Structures, pathing, and devices are still viable as assists but the developers are doing a good job of eliminating any one feature as low participation 'I win' buttons.

 

In single player games I use a multiple fallback position strategy similar to Jihh's suggestions. That was the way many medieval towns and castles were set up. Actively fight the zombies in one area until it's defenses are depleted then fall back to a fresh zone.

 

In my view I see A18 as opening back up more strategies instead of having to use the currently effective cheese method.

[RipClaw]

The impression I get is that the design direction is to have the players actively fight the zombies on hoard night.

 

By active fight, you mean shoot them. Why is it still said that it is a tower defense game ? Why don't you call it by its name and say it's a zombie shooter ?

 

With every tower defense game I've played so far, you didn't fight actively yourself, you set traps at strategic positions. If you had to start defending yourself then the defense wasn't well done and you lose the base.

 

Reading your own listing of changes, each eliminates some method of avoiding the fight or having structures kill the zombies instead of the player participating. The recent changes to zombie behavior where they don't all funnel to a couple weak points opens back up the viability of overground forts as you called them.

 

Structures, pathing, and devices are still viable as assists but the developers are doing a good job of eliminating any one feature as low participation 'I win' buttons.

 

Funny, I searched all the keyboards but never found the "I win" button. I guess it can only be found on certain keyboards.

 

Building a base with traps where you don't have to fight yourself is not as easy as you think. You have to consider exactly how to direct the zombies to where you want them to be and how to use the traps most effectively. And it takes some time to build something like that.

 

Building a base where you shoot the zombies from above is relatively simple and quickly done. Stack a few blocks on top of each other and upgrade them as much as possible, place spikes on the outside and the base is ready.

 

You don't even have to do that. Every POI with sturdy walls will do. Just make a few holes in the ceiling and fill the interior with spikes and you're done.

 

In single player games I use a multiple fallback position strategy similar to Jihh's suggestions.

 

In other words, you're relying on the base to last long enough not to use up all your retreat options and not to run out of ammo. I can already tell you that you will lose this game in the long run.

 

That was the way many medieval towns and castles were set up. Actively fight the zombies in one area until it's defenses are depleted then fall back to a fresh zone.

 

You should check out the defences of real castles. In the movies castles are often only towers and a few strong walls from which the defenders shot down on the attackers, but in reality the defense was much more sophisticated.

 

Pathing was a core element of castles. A very effective defense for example was the so-called Zwinger. There is apparently no English translation for this name. It describes a section where the attackers were forced through a corridor where they are without cover and can be fired at by the defenders. From the functional principle it resembles the funnel bases. The place of the defensive army is taken by the traps.

 

In my view I see A18 as opening back up more strategies instead of having to use the currently effective cheese method.

 

You call it cheese, but I call it smart play. I suspect you even would have accused Hanibal of using a cheese strategy when he crossed the Alps. A good strategy always includes exploiting the weaknesses of your opponents.

[Jihh]

The impression I get is that the design direction is to have the players actively fight the zombies on hoard night. Reading your own listing of changes, each eliminates some method of avoiding the fight or having structures kill the zombies instead of the player participating.

Back in A15 (when I started playing 7dtd) I quickly started making underground bases and I liked my bloodmoon night fights more than ever after, since I was way more actively participating back then, then I was after. On top of that I liked base building more, but that's another story. The reason it was more active and I liked it more is that I was standing head to head with the zombies with just some concrete pillars between us and I not just had to kill them, but also keep everything repaired, so they don't breach. Of course I also had the opportunity to skip it, by closing the opening with frames, but If I wouldn't want to skip it, I would've just turned it off in the options.

 

While I stopped doing underground bases way before digging down was reintroduced again, I'm still missing the point how digging makes my nights more active. All I do is shooting arrows on my current setups and I wouldn't even need to. I also don't repair and close breaches during the night anymore, so I don't have to balance repairing and killing as needed.

 

Don't get me wrong, I understand what they were going for, so I'm with you on your analysis. I'm just still sad that they decided to take away the most active way of base defense I ever had in the name of making them more active. Imho all they did was forcing those players who actually wanted to skip horde nights, to find another strategy, but that's a fight you can't win (I'm not even sure if thy want to), since in solo games you can just turn it off and as I saw in streams on public multiplayer server, some poeple just log out for the duration of the bloodmoon night.

 

There were also people saying they want digging down, so they don't lose a biome to boredom. I get that. But I've yet to see someone sharing one of his/her new and shiny underground bases he/she made.

 

And again, don't get me wrong. It is at it is, I still love this game. I just had the time to write some words.

[Boidster]

Im a builder at heart and I like the idea that im able to try and build a base to withstand the horde, but with each recent patch It seem the direction the game is going is to not have a horde base at all. Heres what I mean:

 

- Previously I was a underground bunker person, but then Digging zombies where introduced

- I changed it to a overground fort, but they they updated AI pathing

- I adapted to "Pathing Base" build, but now they have Demolition zombies

- Adapt to not have a horde base and run at night, Zombie speed are increased.

 

IMO your third bullet is begging the question a bit. "But now they have Demolition zombies" does not completely invalidate base-building, does it? I play 2-player co-op and our strategy/preferred play style has always been to build a strong base (or take over a POI), lay a bunch of traps around it, and perch on top focusing fire on the most dangerous incoming zombies. Used to be cops. Now demos are on the list. Maybe we get 'em, maybe we miss, but the base is designed to have "crumple zones" that can withstand damage without causing overall integrity to collapse.

 

And but so, if you want to be able to build a base that can withstand horde night, but only after a fight - including non-trivial damage to the base - then that should be doable with relatively default settings.

 

To the extent you want the base to survive relatively unscathed and for the survivor(s) to not be in much danger (as when you used to hole up under ground), then you will need to adjust AI block damage settings and horde night bonuses, probably.

 

It's impossible to craft a game and default settings that will gracefully cover all possible play styles. Hence "default". Start tweaking settings and see if you can find a better balance for you. I bet you can get the balance you want without too much trouble. Good luck.

[Jihh]

Why is it still said that it is a tower defense game ?

 

The game is a survival horde crafting game. It has parts from other genres, but it clearly isn't just a tower defense game. Where do you get that from?

 

 

In other words, you're relying on the base to last long enough not to use up all your retreat options and not to run out of ammo. I can already tell you that you will lose this game in the long run.

 

As I already wrote, the main concept of my base is to outlast the zombies. Shooting, spikes and traps are optional. Despite using that concept in 10+ games already, never ever failed a single module. I usually start with 4 models and go up to ten over the weeks. In multiplayer games I build even more, in the last game of A17 I've build 24 modules which lead to the whole server joining my base. Many were over level 200, everyone over level 100, so we were in the end game. I had enough space and materials lying around to double or triple the modules, but since it already was safe I rather went doing quests. Not one module failed that night.

 

I'm not saying my style of building bases is very creative, it isn't. It also probably isn't the most fun build you can make. But I'm pretty confident that it will outlast anything TFP will throw at us.

 

You should check out the defences of real castles. In the movies castles are often only towers and a few strong walls from which the defenders shot down on the attackers, but in reality the defense was much more sophisticated.

 

I'm pretty sure there are things you can learn from real castles. But not everything they did was optimal and not everything will work the same on zombie hordes. In example moats don't do anything useful in this game. Moats were mainly made to prevent siege weapon and siege towers to safely reach the wall. There is no zombie with those things. Moats just gives zombies the opportunity to dig under your wall and thus breach in faster. Of course you could build your concrete wall down to the ground, but at that point you don't even need the moat anymore, since zombies will hit the same wall, just x blocks lower.

For zombie hordes it doesn't matter if you dig a moat or just build a higher wall.

 

But the most important difference is that many of us have a separate base for horde nights. So while a castle had to keep safe everyone inside and thus have to defend a big area, we just need to defend ourselves, moving targets.

[RipClaw]

IMO your third bullet is begging the question a bit. "But now they have Demolition zombies" does not completely invalidate base-building, does it? I play 2-player co-op and our strategy/preferred play style has always been to build a strong base (or take over a POI), lay a bunch of traps around it, and perch on top focusing fire on the most dangerous incoming zombies. Used to be cops. Now demos are on the list. Maybe we get 'em, maybe we miss, but the base is designed to have "crumple zones" that can withstand damage without causing overall integrity to collapse.

 

I think you underestimate the demolisher.

 

It has 1000 HP and an armor that absorbs 40% of all damage. When he explodes then he does 5000 damage in a radius of 5 blocks and with his hands he does 500 block damage with every hit. Anything that is not at least reinforced concrete will be destroyed by the explosion and reinforced concrete is gone after two explosions.

 

I made a test with a gamestage 250 horde and got 8-10 of the demolishers that night.

[Viktoriusiii]

I think you underestimate the demolisher.

 

It has 1000 HP and an armor that absorbs 40% of all damage. When he explodes then he does 5000 damage in a radius of 5 blocks and with his hands he does 500 block damage with every hit. Anything that is not at least reinforced concrete will be destroyed by the explosion and reinforced concrete is gone after two explosions.

 

I made a test with a gamestage 250 horde and got 8-10 of the demolishers that night.

 

That is insane... and not in a good way

I'm sorry to be so negative. And again, maybe it plays very well... just from a gamedesign perspective, demolishers create a power imbalance.

There are certain parameters:

-range

-hp/tankyness/regen

-blockdamage

-playerdamage

-speed

-abilities (like screamers or jumpers)

 

What you describe is a mix of tank, block/playerdmg and abilities (explosion)

 

Either make him way less tanky, way slower or deal normal damage with his fists.

But what you describe is called in gaming culture to be a "♥♥♥♥ move"

Every obstacle needs a counter. And he only has "hit his button early enough, then you only have to fix holes in the dirt". That is... suboptimal.

 

Again, might be super fun ingame, just not a good design.

[RipClaw]

The game is a survival horde crafting game. It has parts from other genres, but it clearly isn't just a tower defense game. Where do you get that from?

 

Madmole always calls it that.

 

As I already wrote, the main concept of my base is to outlast the zombies. Shooting, spikes and traps are optional. Despite using that concept in 10+ games already, never ever failed a single module. I usually start with 4 models and go up to ten over the weeks. In multiplayer games I build even more, in the last game of A17 I've build 24 modules which lead to the whole server joining my base. Many were over level 200, everyone over level 100, so we were in the end game. I had enough space and materials lying around to double or triple the modules, but since it already was safe I rather went doing quests. Not one module failed that night.

 

I'm not saying my style of building bases is very creative, it isn't. It also probably isn't the most fun build you can make. But I'm pretty confident that it will outlast anything TFP will throw at us.

 

Once you've experienced the demolisher, you may reconsider your opinion.

 

I'm pretty sure there are things you can learn from real castles. But not everything they did was optimal and not everything will work the same on zombie hordes. In example moats don't do anything useful in this game. Moats were mainly made to prevent siege weapon and siege towers to safely reach the wall. There is no zombie with those things. Moats just gives zombies the opportunity to dig under your wall and thus breach in faster. Of course you could build your concrete wall down to the ground, but at that point you don't even need the moat anymore, since zombies will hit the same wall, just x blocks lower.

For zombie hordes it doesn't matter if you dig a moat or just build a higher wall.

 

On the contrary. With moats you could guide the zombies in A17 in such a way that they did not attack certain parts of the base. The difference in height between my position and the bottom of the trench told the AI that the cost of the path is too high and so they ran exactly into the entrance that was intended for them. I haven't fully tested this for A18 yet, but I've partially analyzed the AI.

 

For A18 using moat is also great to use spikes as effectively as possible. If you place the spikes in a trench that is one block deep so that the spikes are flush with the bottom, the zombies will always run over the spikes instead of trying to take the clear path. Sounds illogical but that's how the AI works.

 

But the most important difference is that many of us have a separate base for horde nights. So while a castle had to keep safe everyone inside and thus have to defend a big area, we just need to defend ourselves, moving targets.

 

I also have usually two bases but that doesn't mean I want to watch it turn my horde base into a pile of rubble and I have to rebuild everything.