Bones extroadinarily difficult to farm

[PoppaTot]

 

You literally can't be at max crafting at 70.

 

 

Yup and yup.

 

Nerdy glasses and enough perks into INT you can max craft by 70.

 

EDIT: not the auger or anything locked behind perks though.

[RipClaw]

I understand and agree with the idea of decreasing availability of bones. By day 20 in a16 i was able to make hundreds of repair kits.... making it way too easy for me.

 

Nobody forced you to make so many repair kits. But if you lack the self discipline to impose barriers on yourself then nobody can help it.

 

But I doubt anyway that the game will become more difficult or easier just because you have a lack or abundance of repair kits. Unless you can throw the repair kit on the zombies and they die as soon as you hit them.

[RestInPieces]

Nobody forced you to make so many repair kits. But if you lack the self discipline to impose barriers on yourself then nobody can help it.

 

Right, balancing or most of the menu options available aren't even needed, as long as one has self-discipline. You must be trolling, yes?

[RipClaw]

Right, balancing or most of the menu options available aren't even needed, as long as one has self-discipline. You must be trolling, yes?

 

Not at all.

 

I've seen players running around in the horde night on the street with the AK47 and then said it was too easy for them. Then they switched to bow and arrow and the club. There's no option for that anywhere but they just decided to do it and stayed with it. Just self discipline.

 

Or watch the Ramblin Man and Dishong Tower series from glock9 on Youtube. He has imposed restrictions on himself and is also a dead is dead player. He could make it easier for himself but he has chosen these restrictions and sticks to them.

 

The thing you need the most repair kits for is the auger and this was already the case in A16. So if you thought you had too many repair kits, you never had the auger in continuous use. The repair kits were gone extremely fast.

 

The weapons hardly needed any repair kits already in A16. In A17, you're practically drowned in weapons. It's not even worth repairing them but simply using them until they don't work anymore and then disassembling them.

[fishjie]

Also in Alpha 16 the Auto Turrets were a no-go for most players. That's why the Shot Turrets were generally used as the ammunition was very easy and cheap to make.

 

The only scarce ingredient at the beginning was paper but in Alpha 16.2 paper was added as a new recipe. The ingredients are dirty water, glue and wood. These ingredients were available in Alpha 16 in unlimited quantities. This eliminated the shortage and allowed shotgun ammunition to be produced in large quantities.

 

In Alpha 17, glue is no longer available in unlimited quantities because the only source is bones. If there was an alternative source such as tree resin, then you would have unlimited availability again and the use of shotgun turrets would be more economically viable again.

 

 

 

With the right mods, auger is just as fast as A16. These are Bunker Buster, Iron Breaker and Grave Digger. Plus Structural Brace for better durability and a 5th mod to fill all slots. I used the Burning Shaft mod as a 5th mod.

 

Fuel is no longer a problem as soon as you have a chemistry station and oil shale is mined in the desert.

 

I made a small comparison between the auger and the use of pickaxe and shovel over a certain period of time. I got more resources with the auger. One of the reasons was that I didn't have to switch between the tools all the time.

 

can you share some of your defensive setup where you use shotgun turrets?

 

my setup that i experimented with was a pit trap where i waited at bottom, and then some distance away from the pit trap, i set two auto turrets on the second floor of my base. the auto turrets fired on zombies, while zombies flocked toward the pit entrance. it worked, but it used a lot of ammo. i dont think with shotugn turrets it wouldve been able to hit the zombies

[RipClaw]

can you share some of your defensive setup where you use shotgun turrets?

 

my setup that i experimented with was a pit trap where i waited at bottom, and then some distance away from the pit trap, i set two auto turrets on the second floor of my base. the auto turrets fired on zombies, while zombies flocked toward the pit entrance. it worked, but it used a lot of ammo. i dont think with shotugn turrets it wouldve been able to hit the zombies

 

In A17 I have no turrets in use because the paper is missing to run it economically. In A16 I had a platform base with 8 shotgun turrents facing inwards. These have consumed per horde about 1500 rounds. I couldn't afford that in A17 anymore.

 

Instead I use a modified version of the Shockbox from Grand Spartan:

 

 

This one uses dart traps. As only iron and clay is needed for the production of the ammunition, the supply of ammunition is no problem.

 

The combination of 7 electric fences and 14 arrow traps is more than enough to automatically eliminate allmost all zombies in a hordes night. If you want the base to leave some for you then you have to reduce the number or omit the electric fences so that the zombies are only weakened and you kill them yourself.

[Hazeree]

In very late game, I used to raid the book skyscraper. Scrap everything for paper, even schematics. Sometimes two skyscrapers in a week.

 

Let me guess, thats no longer a thing in A17?

[PoppaTot]

In A17 I have no turrets in use because the paper is missing to run it economically. In A16 I had a platform base with 8 shotgun turrents facing inwards. These have consumed per horde about 1500 rounds. I couldn't afford that in A17 anymore.

 

Instead I use a modified version of the Shockbox from Grand Spartan:

 

 

This one uses dart traps. As only iron and clay is needed for the production of the ammunition, the supply of ammunition is no problem.

 

The combination of 7 electric fences and 14 arrow traps is more than enough to automatically eliminate allmost all zombies in a hordes night. If you want the base to leave some for you then you have to reduce the number or omit the electric fences so that the zombies are only weakened and you kill them yourself.

 

There is literally TONS of paper in A17 if you can find Paper Mills. I come out of each one with 2500+ paper.

[RipClaw]

There is literally TONS of paper in A17 if you can find Paper Mills. I come out of each one with 2500+ paper.

 

Thanks for the info

 

I know the paper mill but I currently play on the Navezgane Map and there is only one paper mill on this map.

[PoppaTot]

Thanks for the info

 

I know the paper mill but I currently play on the Navezgane Map and there is only one paper mill on this map.

 

oh, gotcha. I only play RWG. Nav is too predictable for me now. Too many saves on it.

[RipClaw]

oh, gotcha. I only play RWG. Nav is too predictable for me now. Too many saves on it.

 

I wait until RWG is fixed in A17 before I restart on a random gen world. Too many cell towers and waterworks currently on my RWG Testworld.

[FA_Q2]

Correct me if I am wrong but are there not supposed to be choke points in certain materials? What is the point if everything is easily available?

 

Bones are one of the very few items that is actually in high demand - in a17 there is almost nothing I can't get in asinine quantities really easily. Bones are not even that hard to get - I almost never have less than 100 spare glue/tape. We do not need fewer items that are harder to come by - we need more.

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

That's called having real choices where you have to actually decide between A or B instead of getting to have both A and B. You also mentioned "wasting" points in your other thread on perks you don't really want I guess but feel you have to have. I think that the designers of games do a good job when they make 2-3 things feel necessary but you can only get 1 of them. Tough choices are my kind of fun.

 

This may have been awhile ago but I think that this is untrue atm because the perks have not been properly balanced yet (as the devs really have not had enough time to). Right now there simply are perk trees that are unappealing to almost any build and fortitude is one of those trees. No matter how I find myself playing - ranged, builder or melee being the three mains - I never spec fortitude or agility. Agility SHOULD play into a ranged build rather well too but there simply is not enough gain there to make it worth the opportunity cost.

[Feycat]

Nerdy glasses and enough perks into INT you can max craft by 70.

 

EDIT: not the auger or anything locked behind perks though.

 

Then that's literally not max crafting, bro.

[RipClaw]

Correct me if I am wrong but are there not supposed to be choke points in certain materials? What is the point if everything is easily available?

 

There used to be the problem that brass was scarce. Now we have steel ammunition that can be produced almost indefinitely.

I can get enough nitrate and coal from mines to make thousands of rounds of ammunition.

 

I can clear an entire forest, replant it and a few days later I have twice as many trees. I can get stone and iron from mines to keep 10 forges permanently busy and build huge bases.

 

In A16, recipes for making oil, paper, and electrical components have been added to meet increased demand.

 

What does all this tell you?

 

It says it's not intentional that manufacturing materials should be scarce. At least not in this game.

 

The only reason why bones are so scarce now is because you can't harvest the bodies of the zombies anymore. But that was supposedly for performance reasons and not to reduce resources.

 

Bones are one of the very few items that is actually in high demand - in a17 there is almost nothing I can't get in asinine quantities really easily. Bones are not even that hard to get - I almost never have less than 100 spare glue/tape. We do not need fewer items that are harder to come by - we need more.

 

At the moment I have enough bones but I visit a dog center and the bear den once a week to get the bones from the dogs and the bears. But it's not likely that the developers will assume that an average player will do something like this.

 

You assume in your argumentation that 7 Days to die is a pure survival game. But it is a mixture of different game genres. In the beginning the survival aspect predominates but as soon as you have overcome the initial problems the survival aspect moves into the background and it becomes more and more a tower defense game.

[RestInPieces]

Not at all.

 

I've seen players running around in the horde night on the street with the AK47 and then said it was too easy for them. Then they switched to bow and arrow and the club. There's no option for that anywhere but they just decided to do it and stayed with it. Just self discipline.

 

Or watch the Ramblin Man and Dishong Tower series from glock9 on Youtube. He has imposed restrictions on himself and is also a dead is dead player. He could make it easier for himself but he has chosen these restrictions and sticks to them.

 

Listen - surely one can set self-imposed rules on himself to spice up his gameplay. Nothing wrong with doing that. But it's ...remarkably asinine to blame other people for playing the game normally and "not restraining themselves" or dismiss their complaints by saying that they can just use "self-discipline" and solve everything.

 

If that was the case, TFP, or any game devs, wouldn't be hard at work balancing the item economy or any other aspect of the game. Players wouldn't be asking for options to tailor their experience and so on.

 

 

 

The thing you need the most repair kits for is the auger and this was already the case in A16. So if you thought you had too many repair kits, you never had the auger in continuous use. The repair kits were gone extremely fast.

 

The weapons hardly needed any repair kits already in A16. In A17, you're practically drowned in weapons. It's not even worth repairing them but simply using them until they don't work anymore and then disassembling them.

If there was an alternative source such as tree resin, then you would have unlimited availability again and the use of shotgun turrets would be more economically viable again.

 

The repair kit was never meant to have the niche purpose of repairing a 24/7 working auger though. The whole concept of repairing is it being an item sink. If it exists and serves no purpose, that is clearly a shortcoming of the game. Similarly, do you understand the concept of an economy? There is no "economy" if something is unlimited and accessed at a whim.

[Chronosphere]

Tbh last time i played, i cusually ran into packs of dogs inside buildings, i had no problem getting ductape, i alwas already fully equipt with weapons and some gear within first week, 2 drops first week from zombies is amazing duno what u complain about but hey i uqess you had issues not knowing FeelsbadMan

[Vedui]

I'm of two minds (all I can handle, more confuse even me!) of it. While I do see a lack of bones to keep "production" up, I find so many resources from scrapping and dismantling things that I need them less than I was expecting.

 

I mean with q1 pistols in every safe, or multiples of them, scrapping gives lotsa parts to use in crafting.

 

Personally would prefer if we were more dependent on making our own items from scratch rather than the abundance from scrapping i see now, but that's really a preference others might not agree with.

 

I do wish there was a bit more from organic means, not from just exploring. Clearing roadkills works until there are no more roadkills, but shouldn't be more abundant than what you get from hunting animals in my view.

[RipClaw]

Listen - surely one can set self-imposed rules on himself to spice up his gameplay. Nothing wrong with doing that. But it's ...remarkably asinine to blame other people for playing the game normally and "not restraining themselves" or dismiss their complaints by saying that they can just use "self-discipline" and solve everything.

 

If someone completely clears a whole forest and then complains that he have too much wood. What would you say ?

I would say that he just shouldn't cut down a whole forest in the first place.

 

The bones didn't fall from the sky. You had to harvest zombie bodies for it. It was work and the bones and the rotten meat were the reward. You could also just leave the bodies and they disappeared after a while.

 

If that was the case, TFP, or any game devs, wouldn't be hard at work balancing the item economy or any other aspect of the game. Players wouldn't be asking for options to tailor their experience and so on.

 

I can tell you what the developers did.

 

They introduced steel ammunition into A17 to counter the lack of brass.

They introduced recipes for paper, oil, and electrical parts in A16 to address a shortage here as well.

 

How does this fit into your idea of economy and balancing?

 

That things are scarce corresponds to the idea of a survival game but 7 Days to die is not a pure survival game.

It contains elements of other game types. These elements often contradict each other and in the course of the game the whole thing always shifts. In the beginning the focus is on survival, but later this becomes more and more of a backdrop. It becomes more and more important to defend oneself against the hordes. It becomes a tower defense game.

 

The repair kit was never meant to have the niche purpose of repairing a 24/7 working auger though. The whole concept of repairing is it being an item sink. If it exists and serves no purpose, that is clearly a shortcoming of the game. Similarly, do you understand the concept of an economy? There is no "economy" if something is unlimited and accessed at a whim.

 

Then explain to me where the economics of wood, stone, iron, nitrate, and coal are. I can get gigantic amounts of it. I just have to mine or harvest it.

 

That's exactly how it always was with bones. It was a resource without limitation and the only reason why it's not is that zombie bodies can't be harvested anymore. But according to the Fun Pimps this is the case for performance reasons.

 

As it became known that in the future you will not get any bones from the zombies Madmole wrote on Twitter that they will increase the number of bones from the animals. And when people complained that it wasn't enough the roadkill goreblocks were introduced.

 

The whole thing doesn't sound to me like bones should be rare.

[RestInPieces]

The whole thing doesn't sound to me like bones should be rare.

 

In the end, it comes down to this. Whether if bones should be rare.

 

Surely, the time you spend on gathering a resource is included in its "price" in a sense. Wood, stone etc all have this minimum price and are infinitely available. Some other materials are rarer or are harder to gather/gated - there are many "material rarity tiers" in the game. Each material contributes to crafting one or more items. The items they can craft, matters. Materials are essentially the "limiters" of item availability.

 

For example - suppose you were able to craft first aid kits with wood, which is infinitely available. That would come with a mountain of implications rendering other means of healing pretty much obsolete and making you nearly immortal (since you would be able to spam them) etc etc etc. There is a reason a first aid kit needs the range of materials that it needs.

 

Now think of the items that need bones and wonder - should they be infinitely available? If yes, surely the implications of having "too many" repair kits (even if it needs other materials that contribute to limiting the kits' availability, bones are an important limiter in the aforementioned case) are not as dreadful as with the first aid kit, but still include making the repair mechanic obsolete.

[madmole]

Personally, the waste is more about the timing of when I spend on some perks vs having to spend at all.

 

And for bones, I personally struggled at day 32 A17.1b9. had very few animals, very few bone piles, very few bones overall. Seems like a weird throttling mechanic. Them bones.

 

But as for wastefulness, it feels like a waste to, right now be spending skill points for bones, when I'd rather be saving those skill points for a Jeep.

 

You don't spend it on bones, you spend it on harvest perks which give you more resources on everything, so its a huge win of a perk. I usually have loads of bones. Hit the pig farms for tons of bones.

[madmole]

Yeaa you should be 100% able to harvest your own death body

 

I used to survive on my own corpse in Rust lol.

[Narima]

The latest patch : Bones in Mass on the road - you only must loot it...