Cirion Posted February 19, 2019 Share Posted February 19, 2019 It doesn't matter if your tool is level 1 or 6... the only difference is, how often you have to repair it. This is another critical flaw of the new system in A17 / INT system IMO. Sure, you can install mods in Q6 weapons, but Q6 items just don't have the same feeling of usefulness overall as they did in A16, especially since you don't have enough mods to put in a whole bunch of Q6 items until near end-game. So, even if there were no level gates, making stuff early has no benefit, whereas specializing in combat has immediate benefits that are OP in comparison. Whereas in A16, even just being able to make Q200-300 items had a significant impact, because you didn't need mods to get the increased damage and being able to make better armors really helped in surviving. Honestly, higher tier armors are even more useless than the higher tier weapons and tools now. Correct me if I'm wrong, but higher tier armors don't get more armor as you put mods in them, right? Whereas, Q600 steel armor was extremely effective in A16. Mods should be just that - mods. Not requirements to get the increased inherent "Latent" damage potential out of a gun that it had in A16 or the latent armor potential out of armors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackelmyer Posted February 19, 2019 Share Posted February 19, 2019 You ever heard of clubs and bows ? Not a single repair kit needed. You can still pretty much one-shot any small zombie with a club. Yes, needs a bit more practise to kill zombies and not get killed yourself, but works. Talk to me about clubs when the game doesn't lock up for 1-2 seconds grinding on whatever it's grinding on and then spit a zombie out right in my face. If the game ran smoothly, and I know it's not fair versus your point to add game performance to the issue, but this would be a different conversation. If hitboxes didn't just randomly disappear for a few seconds and then reappear... This would be a different conversation. You're absolutely right that there are solutions that reduce bone dependencies. And I could "get gud" in using them. But in the state of the game, if I don't have a heavily modded shotgun at least running into a POI by day 30+, stuffs gonna get real with just Feral zombies alone. Let alone radiated zombies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Posted February 19, 2019 Share Posted February 19, 2019 The fact that the perk does absolutely nothing the first few levels kinda erks me also. Seeming those points are literally wasted unless you go higher in the tree. This really is important feedback. Madmole does want each perk purchase to bring noticeable change. I'll pass along to him that perk levels 1-3 of huntsman are not yielding noticeable results when purchased. The rest of what people are calling for is more problematic. There's a lot of hyperbole being thrown in the form of crazy analogies. My only point is that choices should be tough and the devs should be slow to make those choices easier just because some people think they are being forced a particular way. Rip just admitted that in A16 he had boxes and boxes full and could get 500 - 700 from a single horde. That's probably too much. But, of course, opinions will vary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cirion Posted February 19, 2019 Share Posted February 19, 2019 Upon reflection, I realized my post kind of derails the thread... sorry about that... but my points still stand Roland, if you're referring to my post as crazy analogy, I think you agree with me that level gates are silly, I've seen you post your opinion in this manner. I think that would solve most of the problems with INT specializations right there. But I still think - Weapon, tools, and armor should get increased damage/armor from higher quality (like they did in A16) and mods should be just that, mods and nothing more nothing less - Less emphasis should be put on levels in general, at least while level is the primary function of gamestage increase (I think more penalties need to be put on combat specializations to encourage people to explore other specializations. Like, I've mentioned this in the past - make it so gamestage only increases on zombie kills and not from overall EXP) Personally, and let me know if you feel the same, but I think in a perfectly balanced game, there should be basically an even split among players who prefer certain specializations and all specializations should have EQUAL viability. For example, a balanced game would have 20% of players prefer focusing on each one of the five main attributes, respectively, IMO. An imbalanced game is one where 75% of players prefer focusing on combat, and 25% on INT (as example). All I am saying, is there should be equal balance of pros and cons for each specialization. We could make a poll to see for sure what people prefer specialization in, but I would not be surprised if the vast majority of players prefer the combat specializations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackelmyer Posted February 19, 2019 Share Posted February 19, 2019 Man Roland... Alright. Well crazy analogies aside, thanks for passing along the feedback on the first few levels of the skill. I'd agree with the lack of return on especially bone with using the perk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maynard69 Posted February 19, 2019 Share Posted February 19, 2019 This really is important feedback. Madmole does want each perk purchase to bring noticeable change. I'll pass along to him that perk levels 1-3 of huntsman are not yielding noticeable results when purchased. The rest of what people are calling for is more problematic. There's a lot of hyperbole being thrown in the form of crazy analogies. My only point is that choices should be tough and the devs should be slow to make those choices easier just because some people think they are being forced a particular way. Rip just admitted that in A16 he had boxes and boxes full and could get 500 - 700 from a single horde. That's probably too much. But, of course, opinions will vary. Because gore pile only give 1-2 bones, increasing that by 40% does nothing. I think increasing their rate to 2-4 when harvesting with a knife and allowing vultures to drop bones on par with dogs would satisfy everyone. Maybe more bones with better bladed weapons too, so that machete have some value over hunting knife for harvesting purposes. Those changes alone I think would alter things so the perk has more value for the first few levels. Gore piles dont take extra damage from bladed weapons currently, you dont even get the animation like you are harvesting with a bladed weapon. Changing this would be good I think. (edit, actually now that I think it through, huntsman may not be effecting gore piles at all currently) Not sure about the math, just guesstimating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skullpoker Posted February 19, 2019 Share Posted February 19, 2019 "OP" Increasing the -rare-yet-necessary- items drop chance by 2-5 times would work (from bones to brass junk to scematics). Or increasing the chance of bones by about 10x off of any corpse while leaving the chance of a random loot bag close to current levels. Meaning that we would see many more bags drop from zombies, but most of them would be rotten meat and bones to simulate the old Gore Block's loot and XP. If 1:5 zombies dropped a similar amount to harvesting 5 zombies it would give a strong balance between performance and loot, or 1:10 zombies dropped 10x the bones as 16.4 harvesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Posted February 19, 2019 Share Posted February 19, 2019 This is another critical flaw of the new system in A17 / INT system IMO. Sure, you can install mods in Q6 weapons, but Q6 items just don't have the same feeling of usefulness overall as they did in A16, especially since you don't have enough mods to put in a whole bunch of Q6 items until near end-game. So, even if there were no level gates, making stuff early has no benefit, whereas specializing in combat has immediate benefits that are OP in comparison. Whereas in A16, even just being able to make Q200-300 items had a significant impact, because you didn't need mods to get the increased damage and being able to make better armors really helped in surviving. Honestly, higher tier armors are even more useless than the higher tier weapons and tools now. Correct me if I'm wrong, but higher tier armors don't get more armor as you put mods in them, right? Whereas, Q600 steel armor was extremely effective in A16. Mods should be just that - mods. Not requirements to get the increased inherent "Latent" damage potential out of a gun that it had in A16 or the latent armor potential out of armors. I wouldn't call it a flaw since they have another 300+ mods planned. Sometimes it's tough being an early access tester when features aren't fully realized yet. With internal testing we had to play with the weapons and tools with zero mods because they weren't hooked up until around October about a month before the experimental release. Did we tell the devs the design was flawed because there were no mods? No, because we saw the potential and the same is true now. More mods will be coming. The developers want the guns and armor and tools and vehicles to be fully loaded with mods and for players to definitely want tier 6 items to use with with all their mods. Heck, they want you to have several of each with different mixes of mods. I'll agree that that the current system is critically flawed if it ships with the current skeleton crew of mods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Posted February 19, 2019 Share Posted February 19, 2019 (edit, actually now that I think it through, huntsman may not be effecting gore piles at all currently) Not sure about the math, just guesstimating. This is probably worth posting as a bug in the bug thread just to get their attention on it. You are probably right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odetta Posted February 19, 2019 Share Posted February 19, 2019 Why cant bones be found in trash? I mean my trashcan is always filled with large femurs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cirion Posted February 19, 2019 Share Posted February 19, 2019 I wouldn't call it a flaw since they have another 300+ mods planned. Sometimes it's tough being an early access tester when features aren't fully realized yet. With internal testing we had to play with the weapons and tools with zero mods because they weren't hooked up until around October about a month before the experimental release. Did we tell the devs the design was flawed because there were no mods? No, because we saw the potential and the same is true now. More mods will be coming. The developers want the guns and armor and tools and vehicles to be fully loaded with mods and for players to definitely want tier 6 items to use with with all their mods. Heck, they want you to have several of each with different mixes of mods. I'll agree that that the current system is critically flawed if it ships with the current skeleton crew of mods. Ok... I suppose that's fair. Keep in mind that as players, all we have is what is front of our faces at any given point in time. You likely have far more insider information as to what is in the pipeline to be developed. I however can only judge what I can immediately play and see, so that's what I base my comments upon. If it's going to be addressed, then that's good to know. I still think it is silly though that higher quality items magically get more damage by installing mods though... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdm311 Posted February 19, 2019 Share Posted February 19, 2019 I still think it is silly though that higher quality items magically get more damage by installing mods though... Like adding paint to a weapon... Unless it is lead-based... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maynard69 Posted February 19, 2019 Share Posted February 19, 2019 I still think it is silly though that higher quality items magically get more damage by installing mods though... Right? Why would a sharper blade do more damage? Or a braced club be able to hit harder? Voodoo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cirion Posted February 19, 2019 Share Posted February 19, 2019 Right? Why would a sharper blade do more damage? Or a braced club be able to hit harder? Voodoo that's not what I said at all. the problem is that non-damaging mods increase damage, like paint for example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RipClaw Posted February 19, 2019 Share Posted February 19, 2019 Rip just admitted that in A16 he had boxes and boxes full and could get 500 - 700 from a single horde. That's probably too much. But, of course, opinions will vary. I had chests full of them because I am a hamsterer and have neatly dismantled every wandering horde and every horde and kept the bones. Most of the other players didn't take the trouble or just threw away the bones carelessly. The reason I got so many bones from the horde is that I play with 32 zombies at the same time and my base was designed in such a way that the goreblocks were spread over a large area. But this amount of bone was also necessary when you look at what I used the bones for. In alpha 16 the shotgun turrets were introduced. But they used so much ammunition that alpha 16.2 or 16.3 introduced a recipe to make enough paper out of glue, wood and murky water. This recipe hasn't changed in alpha 17 but the glue is missing to make similar amounts of paper. And I also made a lot of duct tape and used it because I used a lot of repair kits to keep my auger running. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RipClaw Posted February 19, 2019 Share Posted February 19, 2019 that's not what I said at all. the problem is that non-damaging mods increase damage, like paint for example. Maybe zombies are allergic to color. The explanation from the FP is that the color occupies a slot and therefore also gets the damage bonus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maynard69 Posted February 19, 2019 Share Posted February 19, 2019 that's not what I said at all. the problem is that non-damaging mods increase damage, like paint for example. Beyond satisfying your immersion, what purpose would removing the damage bonus to dye accomplish? It would just make dye worthless. It is at least now one of the few chase items in game currently. It fills gaps until you get better quality mods for all your tools and weapons. What about other mods, removing the bonus damage for non-damage mods would effectively make them crap too. Why have a bunch of worthless crap in game? This game is not a emulator of real life, its not even a simulator of real life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cirion Posted February 19, 2019 Share Posted February 19, 2019 Beyond satisfying your immersion, what purpose would removing the damage bonus to dye accomplish? It would just make dye worthless. It is at least now one of the few chase items in game currently. It fills gaps until you get better quality mods for all your tools and weapons. What about other mods, removing the bonus damage for non-damage mods would effectively make them crap too. Why have a bunch of worthless crap in game? This game is not a emulator of real life, its not even a simulator of real life. Point taken, but make it so paint doesn't use up a precious mod slot (honestly, it really shouldn't anyway...) Only items that have actual value should use up mod slots imo... but all this is one reason why I dislike the current system. It made so much more sense that more quality = more damage. Keep the mod slots, but remove any non-damage mod from increasing damage. That doesn't make non-damage mods useless, there are plenty of useful non-damage mods like magazine increase, accuracy increase... personally I kinda wanna do away with even the damage increasing mods, while bringing back quality damage increase. I feel like mods should add new options only, not boring things like "increase damage". Yeah those are useful but not very interesting. I guess my main complaint is that getting high quality weapons just aren't satisfying enough for me, especially in the early game. Oh well, I use a mod to fix that for me now, so it's whatever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maynard69 Posted February 19, 2019 Share Posted February 19, 2019 Point taken, but make it so paint doesn't use up a precious mod slot (honestly, it really shouldn't anyway...) Only items that have actual value should use up mod slots imo... but all this is one reason why I dislike the current system. It made so much more sense that more quality = more damage. Keep the mod slots, but remove any non-damage mod from increasing damage. That doesn't make non-damage mods useless, there are plenty of useful non-damage mods like magazine increase, accuracy increase... personally I kinda wanna do away with even the damage increasing mods, while bringing back quality damage increase. I feel like mods should add new options only, not boring things like "increase damage". Yeah those are useful but not very interesting. There is only a couple of mods that would still be useful without the damage modifier. Increased magazine and rad remover. (maybe a couple more like scopes ect.) And those are only for firearm, but seriously? you want less damage potential on your firearms? o.O. Any mod increasing damage would be preferred on all tools and melee weapons. So ya taking the damage bonus off would make a bunch of them pretty worthless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cirion Posted February 19, 2019 Share Posted February 19, 2019 There is only a couple of mods that would still be useful without the damage modifier. Increased magazine and rad remover. (maybe a couple more like scopes ect.) And those are only for firearm, but seriously? you want less damage potential on your firearms? o.O. Any mod increasing damage would be preferred on all tools and melee weapons. So ya taking the damage bonus off would make a bunch of them pretty worthless. Weapons were more powerful in A16. So no, it would be more damage, not less, by removing damage increasing mods and restoring quality based damage. Yes there are some new perks in A17 that help with damage, but I still recall doing more damage in A16 overall. This especially seems apparent with tools. I remember being able to one hit destroy stone with an auger, now it can take several even with fully kitted Q6 auger. This way, mods can do their intended purpose... MOD the weapon not just add a flat damage multiplier which is boring... IMO And if a mod is only useful if it increases damage then yea, I agree, it's a pretty worthless mod. I feel like a mod should be useful without damage, otherwise it shouldn't even be in the game... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maynard69 Posted February 19, 2019 Share Posted February 19, 2019 Weapons were more powerful in A16. So no, it would be more damage, not less, by removing damage increasing mods and restoring quality based damage. Yes there are some new perks in A17 that help with damage, but I still recall doing more damage in A16 overall. This especially seems apparent with tools. I remember being able to one hit destroy stone with an auger, now it can take several even with fully kitted Q6 auger. This way, mods can do their intended purpose... MOD the weapon not just add a flat damage multiplier which is boring... IMO And if a mod is only useful if it increases damage then yea, I agree, it's a pretty worthless mod. I feel like a mod should be useful without damage, otherwise it shouldn't even be in the game... I am not taking into my consideration them changing quality/ damage modifier back. They have said already that the mod system is what will change damage. They arent gonna change that back. If you are suggesting removing the damage multipliers for mods based on an assumption that this will change, that is why we arent seeing eye to eye. Kinda pointless to argue for a change to something that depends on them reverting a whole system first. Especially when there has been no indication they will ever change it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cirion Posted February 19, 2019 Share Posted February 19, 2019 Don't get me wrong, the new mod system is enjoyable, I wouldn't want them to remove it. It does add a lot more possibilities. All I was saying is it would be nice if they made higher quality weapons do more damage like they did before. That's not overhauling the new system or changing it back to the way it was before. That's not "changing anything back", changing it back would mean removing mods entirely. Mods are here to stay, for sure, I am not debating that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackelmyer Posted February 19, 2019 Share Posted February 19, 2019 Don't get me wrong, the new mod system is enjoyable, I wouldn't want them to remove it. It does add a lot more possibilities. All I was saying is it would be nice if they made higher quality weapons do more damage like they did before. That's not overhauling the new system or changing it back to the way it was before. That's not "changing anything back", changing it back would mean removing mods entirely. Mods are here to stay, for sure, I am not debating that. Mods, all mods, at least seem to increase damage. Try adding and removing a mod and note the weapon damage. It's buggy or badly designed as the total new damage isn't displayed outside the mod editor on the weapon. But pull mods off and slap them back on. Even a dye adds damage. Or at least that's how it seems. Now if it actually adds damage in play... I have no idea... But the damage stat gets tweaked on the weapon as you add/remove mods Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Posted February 19, 2019 Share Posted February 19, 2019 Having damage hooked into mod slots being filled makes the guns variable in damage value even when they are the same quality. It gives more variation. If all Tier 6 shotguns do exact same damage the moment you get them because the damage is based on color of the quality instead of number of mod slots filled then there is less incentive to go and find the mods. It goes back to the assembling a weapon in A16. In A16 you couldn't even use the weapon until all the pieces were present in the gun. You could have 3 out 5 parts and in your backpack the icon would look like a gun but it wouldn't fire. The difference here is that you can use the weapon at varying degrees of power the entire time. If they they had made guns so they couldn't fire at all until all the slots were filled then it would have felt closer to A16 and purple guns would've always seemed more powerful than blue than green than yellow than orange than brown. So would it be better that way? Make the gun useless until every slot it has is filled? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cirion Posted February 19, 2019 Share Posted February 19, 2019 Having damage hooked into mod slots being filled makes the guns variable in damage value even when they are the same quality. It gives more variation. If all Tier 6 shotguns do exact same damage the moment you get them because the damage is based on color of the quality instead of number of mod slots filled then there is less incentive to go and find the mods. It goes back to the assembling a weapon in A16. In A16 you couldn't even use the weapon until all the pieces were present in the gun. You could have 3 out 5 parts and in your backpack the icon would look like a gun but it wouldn't fire. The difference here is that you can use the weapon at varying degrees of power the entire time. If they they had made guns so they couldn't fire at all until all the slots were filled then it would have felt closer to A16 and purple guns would've always seemed more powerful than blue than green than yellow than orange than brown. So would it be better that way? Make the gun useless until every slot it has is filled? I think my stance must still be confusing? Not sure why? Let me try again I suppose... I'm not saying make it so the gun can not be used without all the parts, not sure where I said that? Perhaps where we don't see eye to eye is in the comment "there is no incentive to find mods if damage is only based upon color of the gun". Then, we need better mods instead of superfluous ones to change that perspective. Currently, many mods are not as useful as they could be. For example: I was very under-whelmed by the full-auto mod for the pistol, the fire rate was very low. Sure, we have an SMG for a rapid-fire 9mm weapon, but even still, machine pistols shoot VERY fast in real life. That said, as you said before, many more mods are in work... and it remains to be seen what they will all do. so, it's quite possible that in later updates most of my comments will become a moot point. The magazine increase mod, the scope mods, rad mods are examples of useful mods regardless of damage increases. Another example of an underwhelming mod - semi-auto trigger. this should let you switch between semi-auto and full-auto, not hamstring you into semi-auto only. same with the full-auto mod for that matter. I really have not found either of these to be useful for this reason. TO be fair... perhaps my stances my change if/when - more, better mods are added (I note there is a "hunter" mod that increases damage to humans. does this mean we are gonna get an increased damage to zombies mod?) and/or - more damage increase with mods (I don't have the number off the top of my head, but I wanna say gun damage only increases 20-30% with full kitted Q6 vs. Q1? This is just so underwhelming to me. Q6 even fully kitted is barely better.) Perhaps this is in preparation for mods like Hunter, zombie killer mods? fact is that Q6 stuff in this game doesn't have the "OMG awesome" feeling that Q600 items did before. but hopefully that'll change when they add more and better mods. (I believe Q600 items had something like 100% more damage compared to Q100). Contrast this to the 30% we have now, this is why I am underwhelmed. part of it too is that it's just too easy to get Q6 guns since you can just make them and on top of that they are easier to find now too. It was difficult to find Q600 in the past, yes, but because they were so good, it was well balanced, and satisfying. So, we'll have to wait and see what they add with new mods, I suppose. Roland, you're right, it is not finished and there will be many more mods. I can only comment on what I see, but I do have some faith they will make some more cool mods, that should hopefully mitigate some of my concerns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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