A16 did skills better than A17.

[StrawberryDelite]

I heavily dislike the new skill and perks system of A17. It is extremely limiting and does not encourage the same diversity A16 did.

 

As an example, in A16, my friends and I were able to divvy up the different crafting skills between all of us. One of us did armor, another tools, another melee weapons, another ranged weapons, etc. After that, we still had points to put into our respective combat skills.

 

Now, we just have a few people be burdened with the int skills. These people are the ones who don't get to have any fun fighting. As for everyone else, they barely get to touch any crafting recipes related to the int skills. Because the crafting skills require such a huge point investment, it feels as if there's no room for our int-specializers to spec into combat, and vice versa.

 

Not only that, but some of these perks just don't seem very well thought out. Who is seriously going to waste points into Well Insulated when proper clothing management will completely negate it? Some of the Agility perks on their own look mildly interesting, but Agility as a whole is lacking as an attribute. It's just too much of an investment to put points into it when the other attributes have much more helpful perks.

 

Not to mention, the new skills take all the fun out of looting. I'm hardly finding any point to looting anymore... It seems the goal of the game is now to just kill zombies until I level up for the next tier of recipes. Instead of having several goals to juggle, as in A16 (the bookstore is more likely to have recipes, but the army base has guns I'll need for the upcoming horde night...), the only goal I have now in A17 is to just get more exp so I can craft everything that I would have tried to loot in the last build.

 

A17 hard-caps a lot of things that should be soft-capped. My favorite example of a good soft-cap this game has is the forge. To build the forge, you need a bellows. If you get lucky and loot one, yay! Early forge! If you don't, then it's no worries. You just need several iron pipes to build one yourself. You WILL get those Iron pipes, it just takes longer. The same goes for the cooking pot and grill. You may get lucky and loot them, but if you don't, you still have access to low-tier food recipes, and you'll be able to craft them when you have a forge. In short, a lot of things are just plain gated behind a level-grind, with no clear alternative to get to them.

 

That said, A17 isn't all bad. I love the new horde AI; blood moons and just fighting in general feels a lot more fun. I just feel more thought could have been put into the skill and perks system.

 

If it were up to me, I'd just bring A16's skill system back, but adding the new cooking, physician, and grease monkey skills.

 

If one desired to keep some semblance of A17's system, here's an example of something that would actually provide diversity:

 

Leveling up now gives Attribute points, Perk Points, and "survival" points, each their own pool of points.

 

Attributes are now STR, AGI, FOR, and PER.

 

Strength (Melee Powerhouse):

Perks are Heavy Metal (blunt weps), Stay Down, Flurry of Blows, Sex Rex, Heavy Armor and Shotgun Messiah

Shotgun Messiah replaces stun w/ dismemberment chance on levels.

points in Strength increase quality and available recipes of crafted melee weapons

 

Agility (Melee Utility):

Perks are Deep Cuts, Cardio, Charging Bull, Parkour, Stealth, Light Armor, and Automatic Weapons

Stealth should simply be all the current stealth perks merged into one; they all feel a little weak on their own otherwise.

Automatic Weapons instead give a small chance to stagger an enemy on hit.

points in Agility increase quality and available recipes of tools

 

Fortitude (Support):

Perks are Light Armor, Heavy Armor, Deep Cuts, Pain Tolerance, Physician, Gunslinger, and "One-two punch"

One-two punch is only applied with melee weapons, bow, and pistol; attacking with any of these weapons will cause the next attack (from anyone) to deal more damage.

Points in Fortitude increase quality and available recipes of armor

 

Perception (Ranger):

Skills are Archery, Gunslinger, Shotgun Messiah, Automatic Weapons, Deadeye, Run and Gun, and "Ammo conservationist"

Ammo conservationist gives a chance to refund a spent bullet to your inventory.

Points in Perception increase quality and available recipes of ranged weapons

 

Survival Skills:

Quality and available recipes of crafted items should be based on both level and the related attribute. This way, all your tools are getting better as you level, but your specialization will get better faster.

Survival skills should be similar to perks, but only purchasable with its respective points.

Contains all current Int skills, Living off the Land, Healing Factor, Slow Metabolism, Pack Mule, Lucky Looter, Headshot perks, and all Harvest Skills.

 

A system like this would now encourage players to specialize, while keeping them relatively equal. A group is no longer required to gimp some of their players to train crafting, and can still divvy out roles.

 

Different attribute "classes" now have clear roles in combat, but are not too penalized for using weapons they're not "meant" for. Some perks are in multiple attributes; they are simply limited by whichever of the two is higher. With the exception of the ranged specialist, each class has both a preferred melee and ranged weapon.

 

Keep in mind, since I mostly just get together with my friends to play this, I'm mostly looking at this at a MP perspective. It'd probably be needed to be balanced for SP. Also, it's not my job to develop this game. I have neither the time nor the motivation to properly conceive, test, and balance a system like this; I'm sure TFP could make a much better system if they had a clearer vision of diversity in mind. I've already spent far longer than I intended on this, so in we go!

[EdwardSmith]

i agree with you, A16s skill tree would give you some good bonuses, but [for the most part] would not lock much behind it. now in A17 EVERYTHING requires you to buy a skill, want to boil meat? apparently your as brain dead as the zombies without any perks, so your too dumb to toss meat into boiling water, want to make a forge? something that is NECESSARY to even do very basic things, SKIIIIIIIILPOOOOOOOOOOOOOOINTS!!!!!!!!

i think the skill tree locks way too much behind it, and your completely INCAPABLE of anything more demanding than 'grog need walk to get stone'

[Ghostlight]

OP, I couldn't agree more. A16 pretty much did everything better in terms of systems in mechanics in the game. A16 was much more satisfying and gave a much stronger sense of achievement and progression.

 

In short, a lot of things are just plain gated behind a level-grind

 

EVERYTHING except Beakers is gated behind a level grind. This for me has destroyed the long-term replayability of the game. Every playthrough is now exactly the same with the same stuff becoming available at the same level, every run. BORING. This also removes the need for the player to ever loot again once he hits ~level 100, as he can craft everything at top tier by then. Pretty bad design for a survival/exploration game when you no longer need to explore after a mere 30 days in-game.

[hotpoon]

I think lots of people agree with you StrawberryDelite, but the devs have put in so much work on the new system so, understandably, are being a bit stubborn. It sounds like they believe it can be salvaged with some balancing via equalising XP gain for different tasks. That will improve the current system for sure, but in my opinion, will not save it. The 'Learn by Doing', 'Learn by Perks', Learn by Books' combo of A16 will always be superior in my eyes. Hill to die on

[Bacchae]

StrawberryDelite was spot on.

 

Alpha 16 had the best way to do skill progression. As hotspoon said "learn by doing, perks or books" had great variety and leant itself to a variety of playstyles.

 

Alpha 17's "learn cooking by killing zombies" is moronic, unfun and frankly boring. If I just wanted to kill things, I'd play Doom.

[Ranzera]

I fondly refer to A16s skill system as "Perk by Doing". The sense of accomplishment was destroyed in this alpha. RIP A16, we didn't know what we had until we lost it.

[Katitof]

 

I prefer current way, where I can do what I want to skill up what I need.

Fallout 4 might have been a bad fallout game and a bad RPG, but it was good game overall and perks they did well.

A17 is better for me as a player who likes to change what he does on the fly instead of grind over and over same activity - if I wanted that, I would have played asian MMORPG.

[LuckyStar]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]26971[/ATTACH]

 

I prefer current way, where I can do what I want to skill up what I need.

Fallout 4 might have been a bad fallout game and a bad RPG, but it was good game overall and perks they did well.

A17 is better for me as a player who likes to change what he does on the fly instead of grind over and over same activity - if I wanted that, I would have played asian MMORPG.

 

 

That is all.

[Greymantle]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]26971[/ATTACH]

 

I prefer current way, where I can do what I want to skill up what I need.

Fallout 4 might have been a bad fallout game and a bad RPG, but it was good game overall and perks they did well.

A17 is better for me as a player who likes to change what he does on the fly instead of grind over and over same activity - if I wanted that, I would have played asian MMORPG.

 

I agree too. Also what the OP said he does in 16 we do the same in 17. My friend is the physician, science, vehicles and I'm the cook, forge, engineer. There is so many options in 17 were still playing the game and have interest when were reaching level 100. In earlier version after 2 to 3 weeks of playing there was nothing left to do.

[OzHawkeye]

 

That is all.

 

O My Godz! The Trinity Killer!!!!

[HerrKingsley]

Agree, a16 was superior.

LBD, Skill points and books.

Now we got temporary books, skill points and ONE xp source.

It is a dumbdown system and I can see why ppl like it.

 

Because its EASY, you dont have to put in the work or dedication. Lazy is what it is.

 

Oh by the way before some one starts complaining about spam crafting. Well that was in A15. So dont bother.

 

 

Fortunately its modable and it looks like the mod community are cracking that book.

For now I play with no skill points just magazines giving permanent perk points.

 

Happy RGN!!!

[dashbarron]

Me and my friends (if you're reading this, "hi!") have been talking about this topic. We generally dislike the last round of skill changes.

 

We feel like it's two levels of gatekeeping for most things, and three levels if you include an actual required level to get things (steel, gyros, etc). I get the general idea you don't want a bright-eyed noobie to have access to these things, but it's not panning out well for play style right now.

 

We've done two long play-throughs, and by the time we've hit level 50, we feel like we're very established, can withstand hordes pretty easily, and more/less at the "end-game" stage. Yet now, esp., with the stable A17, we can't unlock those last crafting things and have access to fast and mobile vehicles to help us enjoy end-game more. We have to wait at least 20 more levels. Feels like a bit of a grind to get to the next stage, vs a natural progress.

[Bhaaltazar]

A17 have some good aspects - but these new perks form A17 should just be implemented into A16 system.

A16 has so much potential to make it logic.

For example Athletics - more you run walk, work, fight, punch... less stamina you use ( more trained you are, less fatigued you get - like IRL ).

Mining - same more you mine, better you get in it - like IRL... etc...

Weapons leveling for example was also great in A16, so you looked for either good clubs early on and just used those or you grinded through with knife for perks into bladed that were "gated" behind bladed skill progression.

 

For those skills that cant be implemented into A16 system, just add the perks into it to invest into them via skill points.

 

I will be able to live with A17 system, but why would you change something that was already great in previous version - just implement and refine it instead.

[Morloc]

Carl Perkins did

better than Elvis Presley.

 

 

-Morloc

[Randomdude]

Carl Perkins did

better than Elvis Presley.

 

 

-Morloc

 

Just heard it, I agree.