Darellion Posted December 14, 2018 Share Posted December 14, 2018 I love this 4 prong approach. The first 2 can be limited by rarity and price, making them like finding how to build a steam engine again to power your generator. the 3rd is built in control on the level found and the final one from basically trial and error. I do like the schematic approach to crafting some items, just wish it didn't consume the schematic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guppycur Posted December 14, 2018 Share Posted December 14, 2018 You have a link to that post? Now I'm curious. https://7daystodie.com/forums/showthread.php?97336-Perks-System-and-Level-Gates&p=897052&viewfull=1#post897052 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darellion Posted December 14, 2018 Share Posted December 14, 2018 There should be several methods to unlocking things. Finding recipes (via rwg loot). Buying recipes (from trader). Earning recipes (from completing quests). Learning recipes (from doing). ...but, that would go against the simplification system TFP is developing in their attempts to marginalize their own potential. I love this 4 prong idea. 1) rarity makes finding these feel special 2) price makes these dear to the player if the things are balanced (buy the blueprint to a forge, or that armor....) 3) the quest is scaled to the item 4) trial and error (forgot the include post when i tried to reply) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Posted December 14, 2018 Share Posted December 14, 2018 I've had level gates off since about 3 days after a17e was dropped, in the exact method MM described. =) So we've been having fun since then. In fact, I truly believe StompyNZ's original post about it made this happen... /narcissisting for others since 1971 Could be...This was a result of Madmole, Gazz, and Kinyajuu having a balancing meeting a few days ago. I didn't get the impression that Madmole knew about Stompy's mod but Gazz may have. The final costs for each attribute tier may end up changing. Not everyone on the team is convinced its the right way to go. They will make a decision before this goes to stable on whether they keep the current system or go to the proposed system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guppycur Posted December 14, 2018 Share Posted December 14, 2018 Who is actually playing the game to get a feel for it best? I know the testers are in it a lot, but they're probably only getting a few days and testing for specific things... which pimp is actually playing long term enough to know? /curiositying since 1971 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuckyStar Posted December 14, 2018 Share Posted December 14, 2018 https://7daystodie.com/forums/showthread.php?97336-Perks-System-and-Level-Gates&p=897052&viewfull=1#post897052 Oh this one. Level gating is the only thing I have modded so far because it is just that bad Removed all level gates from attributes and gave 5 pts per level, with increasing cost per level. I find that plays so much better Haha now isn't that something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beHypE Posted December 15, 2018 Share Posted December 15, 2018 Regardless of if it's the best system one could come up with or not, i'm actually glad they realise the past iteration definitely wasn't promoting what they wanted. Really makes me feel like these sort of threads / debates actually have an impact. Thx TFP ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myrrah Posted December 15, 2018 Share Posted December 15, 2018 This is a long thread and i haven't read everything but i really miss a lot of things that-to me-made this game unique. I miss scouring the map to find the big crack a book stores. I miss being able to just work at something in order to get skilled up in it (realistic) i'm not playing my old standby mmo's because the leveling systems bore me nowadays. But now this game has copied them. The combination of putting in perk point as you are able but mainly working at something to get good at it was, to me, immersive and interesting and much different than most other games-which was the draw for me. Now...i'm sticking it out to see what happens but noting how i don't really "look forward" to anything. It's just another level grind and i'm so burned out on those. There is enough good about A17 that i don't want to go back to A16 (map details, graphics, vehicles, POI's) But as i've stated before-i find myself kind of in wait mode-hoping modders will fix it and bring back the mystique. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poojam Posted December 15, 2018 Share Posted December 15, 2018 This is a long thread and i haven't read everything but i really miss a lot of things that-to me-made this game unique. I miss scouring the map to find the big crack a book stores. I miss being able to just work at something in order to get skilled up in it (realistic) i'm not playing my old standby mmo's because the leveling systems bore me nowadays. But now this game has copied them. The combination of putting in perk point as you are able but mainly working at something to get good at it was, to me, immersive and interesting and much different than most other games-which was the draw for me. Now...i'm sticking it out to see what happens but noting how i don't really "look forward" to anything. It's just another level grind and i'm so burned out on those. There is enough good about A17 that i don't want to go back to A16 (map details, graphics, vehicles, POI's) But as i've stated before-i find myself kind of in wait mode-hoping modders will fix it and bring back the mystique. I agree, and your sentiments here have been posted frequently. Having the level based perks reward recipes that were once found in books has turned the incentive structure on it's head and damaged the replay value. I really enjoyed exploring and scavenging for the books as well. It created uncertainty in the game's progression and the random number jesus provided some equality in that chaos. When he was kind and you got a book quickly, you felt lucky. When he was harsh and your efforts finally paid off after days of searching, you felt relieved/vindicated. If he was super harsh, you turned to other players on the server to try and buy the books (+1 to economy). Every game is going to be linear and boring with this current iteration, because your needs are covered by the perk tree. Only the wants (mods) are still left to the random number jesus. With perks locking away the valuable recipes behind player xp in combination with the rework of the item qualities & removal of zombie loot, the games reward structure for looting and scavenging has completely lost it's luster to the point of why bother? Why bother looking at these 97 different POI's? They all reward the same vendor trash/consumables/guns that perform the same. Getting stuff to sell to the Trader so you can get what you need from him or the local vending machine (who restocks the vending machine in a zombie apocalypse btw) seems to be the only running theme. Why bother having a nurse zombie? She doesn't drop any bandages/beakers/med kits. Why bother having a stripper zombie? She doesn't drop any money or dirty g-strings you can hang on the wall. All of these changes seem half baked and short sighted in favor of simplifying the game into a Fallout clone. edit - When they said mods and countless combinations for item qualities, I was expecting borderlands gear/weapons. I wasn't expecting this. Modders have had the recipes for silenced, larger magazines, special ammo, flash light gun attachments in the game since A10. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myrrah Posted December 15, 2018 Share Posted December 15, 2018 I agree, and your sentiments here have been posted frequently. Having the level based perks reward recipes that were once found in books has turned the incentive structure on it's head and damaged the replay value. I really enjoyed exploring and scavenging for the books as well. It created uncertainty in the game's progression and the random number jesus provided some equality in that chaos. When he was kind and you got a book quickly, you felt lucky. When he was harsh and your efforts finally paid off after days of searching, you felt relieved/vindicated. If he was super harsh, you turned to other players on the server to try and buy the books (+1 to economy). Every game is going to be linear and boring with this current iteration, because your needs are covered by the perk tree. Only the wants (mods) are still left to the random number jesus. With perks locking away the valuable recipes behind player xp in combination with the rework of the item qualities & removal of zombie loot, the games reward structure for looting and scavenging has completely lost it's luster to the point of why bother? Why bother looking at these 97 different POI's? They all reward the same vendor trash/consumables/guns that perform the same. Getting stuff to sell to the Trader so you can get what you need from him or the local vending machine (who restocks the vending machine in a zombie apocalypse btw) seems to be the only running theme. Why bother having a nurse zombie? She doesn't drop any bandages/beakers/med kits. Why bother having a stripper zombie? She doesn't drop any money or dirty g-strings you can hang on the wall. All of these changes seem half baked and short sighted in favor of simplifying the game into a Fallout clone. edit - When they said mods and countless combinations for item qualities, I was expecting borderlands gear/weapons. I wasn't expecting this. Modders have had the recipes for silenced, larger magazines, special ammo, flash light gun attachments in the game since A10. hear hear! to all that you said here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beHypE Posted December 15, 2018 Share Posted December 15, 2018 With perks locking away the valuable recipes behind player xp in combination with the rework of the item qualities & removal of zombie loot, the games reward structure for looting and scavenging has completely lost it's luster to the point of why bother? Why bother looking at these 97 different POI's? [...] Why bother having a nurse zombie? She doesn't drop any bandages/beakers/med kits. Why bother having a stripper zombie? She doesn't drop any money or dirty g-strings you can hang on the wall. Very true. I've started quite a lot of games already (different groups of people I play with) and somehow always land near Diersville (I play Navezgane only for now), and quite frankly I'm not even thrilled by the idea of "having to loot all those houses/dungeons". Some are appealing by how the entrance is designed, but overall the looting experience has never felt so lackluster and unrewarding than in A17. I'm actually more intrigued by navigating the different dungeons for the gameplay value (that's one thing refraining me from playing A16, they really nailed level design imo), than I am actually looting them. In my most recent playthrough, I've settled my base on top of the 99 cents fish & stix, and I'm level 9 on day 3. I can't help but think the only thing I really need to do is get 11 levels to "leave stone age" (and no, I'm not trying to powerlevel, but what else are you supposed to do early game when food / surviving isn't really an issue ?), and no matter how many POIs i'm gonna loot, there's just nothing I can find that will make the process of evolution faster, besides maybe finding a functionning workstation. Sure, I can fill chests up to the point of not remembering all the stuff I have, but most of the interesting items I can find, I wouldn't even be able to do anything with. I've even found a machete on day 2 in a snakepit camp, which used to be a major "OMG OMG OMG" in A16, but it totally lost it's decapitation value unless you're at least lvl 3 in the Cutting blades perk to get 5% (!) decapitation chance, and it actually does less damage than my iron reinforced club which is a day 1 craft/repair item... Weapon damage is a different topic but at the end of the day, all the mechanics need to blend together and make that awesome character progression system, which unfortunately is not the case today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myrrah Posted December 15, 2018 Share Posted December 15, 2018 Very true. I've started quite a lot of games already (different groups of people I play with) and somehow always land near Diersville (I play Navezgane only for now), and quite frankly I'm not even thrilled by the idea of "having to loot all those houses/dungeons". Some are appealing by how the entrance is designed, but overall the looting experience has never felt so lackluster and unrewarding than in A17. I'm actually more intrigued by navigating the different dungeons for the gameplay value (that's one thing refraining me from playing A16, they really nailed level design imo), than I am actually looting them. In my most recent playthrough, I've settled my base on top of the 99 cents fish & stix, and I'm level 9 on day 3. I can't help but think the only thing I really need to do is get 11 levels to "leave stone age" (and no, I'm not trying to powerlevel, but what else are you supposed to do early game when food / surviving isn't really an issue ?), and no matter how many POIs i'm gonna loot, there's just nothing I can find that will make the process of evolution faster, besides maybe finding a functionning workstation. Sure, I can fill chests up to the point of not remembering all the stuff I have, but most of the interesting items I can find, I wouldn't even be able to do anything with. I've even found a machete on day 2 in a snakepit camp, which used to be a major "OMG OMG OMG" in A16, but it totally lost it's decapitation value unless you're at least lvl 3 in the Cutting blades perk to get 5% (!) decapitation chance, and it actually does less damage than my iron reinforced club which is a day 1 craft/repair item... Weapon damage is a different topic but at the end of the day, all the mechanics need to blend together and make that awesome character progression system, which unfortunately is not the case today. This entire debate with this iteration of the game makes me think-again-of the white suited guy in the matrix explaining to Neo that humans are curious critters. They need something to fight. And they need something to fight FOR in order to thrive and not just give up and die-lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaek Posted December 16, 2018 Share Posted December 16, 2018 I prefer it over a16's leveling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VulpesHilarianu Posted December 16, 2018 Share Posted December 16, 2018 Not really, no. After getting a basic shelter built and grabbing some food I sat down to try and figure out what to spend my new levels on. This was after looting a town and killing at least forty zombies. And then I noticed everything useful was actually gated to level ten. Meaning I'd be stuck with wood and rocks like a caveman for at least the next two or three hours. I quit right then and have been debating whether or not I just want to mess with the .xml files to remove the level gating. It's arbitrarily in there to slow down the game versus actually being a test of skill. It'd be better if these perks were restricted behind different tasks. Intelligence perks regarding construction behind say "Upgrade 100 blocks" and Strength perks for melee behind "Kill twenty zombies with a club" or something. It's not that hard to make a property that counts up every time an action is completed. But being directionless and just using level gating makes the game feel like it's punishing me for wanting to build a defensible central base before going out to kill for better items. That's aside from the fact that most of the perks available below level ten, as has been discussed before, are often build specific and can screw you later in the game. So unless you've played this specific Alpha before and can plan out your role, you might turn out weaker than you want or even have a serious crippling disadvantage by the fourth or fifth week. The UI itself is also a friggin' mess. The perks are split up into categories that don't really need to be there, or at least need to be better organized. Having text along with the icons would also help. Within the categories tabs you have the perks in a list without proper spacing, so it takes you three or four seconds to actually see what's what. And then there's the redundant "Buy" text above the perk status, while the actual button to buy the perk is smaller and next to a block of text. Then there's the levels for the perks themselves, which take up way too much screen real estate for what is essentially a stat description. If the levelling system for perks was just a list with the name and the icons for the levels, and the description showed up when you moused over them instead of requiring clicking, that would be so much better. Right now the entire system makes me just not want to bother with it. I'm going back to do just that, but it's still going to be sitting in the back of my mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poojam Posted December 16, 2018 Share Posted December 16, 2018 The UI itself is also a friggin' mess. The perks are split up into categories that don't really need to be there, or at least need to be better organized. Having text along with the icons would also help. Within the categories tabs you have the perks in a list without proper spacing, so it takes you three or four seconds to actually see what's what. And then there's the redundant "Buy" text above the perk status, while the actual button to buy the perk is smaller and next to a block of text. Then there's the levels for the perks themselves, which take up way too much screen real estate for what is essentially a stat description. If the levelling system for perks was just a list with the name and the icons for the levels, and the description showed up when you moused over them instead of requiring clicking, that would be so much better. Agree completely. Example https://www.wowhead.com/talent-calc/death-knight/blood Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davy Crockett Posted December 16, 2018 Share Posted December 16, 2018 It'd be better if these perks were restricted behind different tasks. Intelligence perks regarding construction behind say "Upgrade 100 blocks" and Strength perks for melee behind "Kill twenty zombies with a club" or something. I like this idea in general. It would tell the player if he wants to be a builder he should build, but it could potentially be more finely tuned than a skill requirement, and definitely more finely tuned than a level requirement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randomdude Posted December 16, 2018 Share Posted December 16, 2018 With perks locking away the valuable recipes behind player xp in combination with the rework of the item qualities & removal of zombie loot, the games reward structure for looting and scavenging has completely lost it's luster to the point of why bother? Why bother looking at these 97 different POI's? They all reward the same vendor trash/consumables/guns that perform the same. Getting stuff to sell to the Trader so you can get what you need from him or the local vending machine (who restocks the vending machine in a zombie apocalypse btw) seems to be the only running theme. Why bother having a nurse zombie? She doesn't drop any bandages/beakers/med kits. Why bother having a stripper zombie? She doesn't drop any money or dirty g-strings you can hang on the wall. All of these changes seem half baked and short sighted in favor of simplifying the game into a Fallout clone. +++1 LOVE this sentiment and agree 100%!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meganoth Posted December 16, 2018 Share Posted December 16, 2018 Not really, no. After getting a basic shelter built and grabbing some food I sat down to try and figure out what to spend my new levels on. This was after looting a town and killing at least forty zombies. And then I noticed everything useful was actually gated to level ten. Factual mistake. Nothing is gated to level 10. You can increase all abilities to level 3 and all perks except for some crafting perks to level 2. But being directionless and just using level gating makes the game feel like it's punishing me for wanting to build a defensible central base before going out to kill for better items. The game got a lot harder at default difficulty. In single player probably the best way is to take over a sturdy poi and upgrade it to a base that will hold for the first two weeks. THEN build a standalone base. In A16 it generally would have been the same if the zombie AI were up to the task. Actually my co-op group always took over a poi first. But you have more options: Change the length of day to 90 minutes (for example) and even in single player you have enough time to build a first horde base (I built a simple high cobblestone block with a walled spike garde around and an elongated entrance path with spikes). And have time to scavenge. If it is still too hard, drop down a difficulty level. And if you just don't like to be in the stone age (which is in the game on purpose and would be senseless if you could skip it immediately) use creative menue to give you iron tools. I had no problems getting them by simply scrouncing and doing quests. That's aside from the fact that most of the perks available below level ten, as has been discussed before, are often build specific and can screw you later in the game. So unless you've played this specific Alpha before and can plan out your role, you might turn out weaker than you want or even have a serious crippling disadvantage by the fourth or fifth week. There is uncertainty which weapon you might ultimately favor as it might depend on what mods you find. But apart from that there is not that much you can do wrong if you learn some abilities and utility perks. Fortitude helps every build as it boosts health points, A few points in strength and pack mule are never a crippling mistake, so is miner69 (even a scavenger doesn't want to hack endlessly on a safe). More stamina through agility is another obvious thing. You probably know at least if you want to play more like a scavenger or a builder, right? Again there will be some choices that can't be really wrong. Agree on the UI having a lot of potential for improvement Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VulpesHilarianu Posted December 16, 2018 Share Posted December 16, 2018 What I meant by "Actually gated to level ten" is the player character level, not the perk level. Because first you have to upgrade Intellect to five and Strength to three to actually unlock basic things things. So that's eight levels already. Then when you pile on the necessary Master Chef so you don't starve to death (What functioning adult is so stupid they don't know how to put a potato in a pot over a fire for fifteen minutes?), that's already nine levels. So your first real perk point you get to use as a ninjaneer is at level ten. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lazyknob Posted December 16, 2018 Share Posted December 16, 2018 What I meant by "Actually gated to level ten" is the player character level, not the perk level. Because first you have to upgrade Intellect to five and Strength to three to actually unlock basic things things. So that's eight levels already. Then when you pile on the necessary Master Chef so you don't starve to death (What functioning adult is so stupid they don't know how to put a potato in a pot over a fire for fifteen minutes?), that's already nine levels. So your first real perk point you get to use as a ninjaneer is at level ten. Don't forget about the free 5 from the quest chain. On a sidenote: Yeah I'd rather not have level gates. Make the tiers cost more to compensate. Makes specialization more rewarding and the weight of choice heavier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuckyStar Posted December 16, 2018 Share Posted December 16, 2018 Don't forget about the free 5 from the quest chain. On a sidenote: Yeah I'd rather not have level gates. Make the tiers cost more to compensate. Makes specialization more rewarding and the weight of choice heavier. I'm betting this is what we'll see in the next patch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WolfyBlah Posted December 16, 2018 Share Posted December 16, 2018 Don't forget about the free 5 from the quest chain. On a sidenote: Yeah I'd rather not have level gates. Make the tiers cost more to compensate. Makes specialization more rewarding and the weight of choice heavier. I do not get the point on this change, it does nothing to remove thr gates at all (aside from lowering some of them a little) why anyone that realises that level gates sucks would be happy wih being told they got removed when in reality they are still the exact same is beyond me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leaderdog Posted December 16, 2018 Share Posted December 16, 2018 Since Trader Jane (I think it is) looks like a nurse, is it plausible (or hoping) that they may have quests for leveling skills? So you go see doctor for training, she sets you to work doing some task that rewards you with skill points, or you now have 15/100 skill in medicine etc (I'd prefer that skill gain to just dumping points somewhere). I think I'd prefer something like that. Probably more work, and for the love all things holy don't level gate it. That got modded out of my game after a few hours giving the old college try "the way the developers intended". That alone made the game significantly more fun for me. I just can't be bothered with level gates in a survival game. You do what you need to do in a survival game. Not dang can't do that yet because... well, points. But we're still missing a large number of items and concepts that they are implementing. I think. Whether we'll like it or not is another story. And God bless all the modders that can alter the game in so many different ways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VulpesHilarianu Posted December 17, 2018 Share Posted December 17, 2018 Don't forget about the free 5 from the quest chain. I always forget that's there, because by the time the UI catches up with me I've already built all my tools and am knee deep in a five streak murder spree. Most people are going to build the axe and club first anyways, not the bedroll. Which means they'll forget about the starting quest like me because the text doesn't change to alert you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roshu Posted December 17, 2018 Share Posted December 17, 2018 So I haven't read all posts here only to about post 90 so don't know if this has been said yet, but my main problem with the new leveling system is that it just feels so generic now, just like every other RPG with leveling, Kill or do stuff and magically get new ability's, I loved the old system because it was different, was it perfect no, but it at least felt like they were trying something different. I think I could deal with the new perk system if it just applied to the strength and agility stuff and the books and schematics came back for the intellect part, I really don't get why those were removed they gave a tone of incentive to get out there a search the world to get those rare schematics, yeah it could be annoying to not find what you need but its a survival game set in a post post apocalyptic world you should have to always be scavenging to find what you need to survive. Now the incentive feels like just go kill and be guaranteed to get this ability at this time. I also am missing to old wellness system its just another thing that feels dumbed down and simplified, spend a point get more hp, the new system makes food feel less important, yeah you need to eat more now which is good in, A16 I would just sit at 5% hunger all the time because it didn't matter, so I like that you need to make sure your staying close to 100% on food and water, but you can get there by eating anything no reason to make better food, and in a survival game food should be the most important thing and should impact you beyond just having stamina or not. Personally I would ditch the whole level and skill thing and tie your strength and agility to what you eat and drink eat better food get more other all hp, strength, stamina, agility, eat crap and you loose it, make it something you have to always maintain, run out of good food and only eat junk you become weak, right now you just max out your perks and become a super human and then theres no challenge everything gets too easy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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