Realism and games

[Telric]

This is not a post to berate either view or anyone's opinion. This is just to get a conversation going about realism.

This is also not a post against 7 days to die, in any way. Best game ever. I love this game and the devs and communities are great within it.

 

Lately I have seen a ton of posts that include the word realism or realistic in some sense. Most of them saying or implying realism isn't being fufilled in the scenario of their posts.

 

My question is why is realism a thing for people to like? I'm not into realism. I don't understand what the appeal is. Why play a game if it's going to be like real life? Too much realism actually ruins games for me personally. Why? I'm playing a game that will make my life epic (don't lie, you're all doing the same ). I don't want a game to make me feel the exact same as I would if i wasn't playing a game. Realism makes that feeling very similar.

 

Some of the best (subjective and objective) games have minimal realism involved and do extremely well. Examples? Terraria. The only realistic thing in that game is the backdrop. One of the best and most played games in it's genre. Mario games. Mario is realistic in the sense that he's human looking, but when you can gather a red flower and shoot balls of fire, or grab a feather and fly, well.. realism isn't the driving force. World of Warcraft. I mean this one's self explanatory. Legend of Zelda. Again, human characters with a very unrealistic world around them.

 

These games have a similar theme. They make you (the player) feel like you're on an epic adventure doing epic things. This is what games are meant for. The epic adventure slaying epic foes saving epic princesses. Sure you might pick up a few swords and those are realistic.. For a time. Then you get an upgrade to make it into a flaming sword or a laser gun or a bubble wand that shoots rainbow colored sharks to chew on your enemies.

 

So my question is... Why? Why is there so much emphasis on realism in video games lately? Everyone seems to want things to be exactly like they are in real life. In 7 days to die, people want non digging zombies, zombies that dont break things.. They just want a punching bag that walks. And slowly... What's the fun in that? Don't you want an epic adventure? Just because it is a survival game, doesnt mean it can't be epic.

 

Something that is missing (in my opinion) from this game is a scale factor. Everything except terrain and buildings is eye level. Nothing pokes out like "WOW look at that giant _____!". Look at Ark. How epic was it for you guys to have to move your mouse straight up to take in the entirety of a trex or one of those colored towers. This is something that I think would make 7 days to die an epic adventure.. But that will constantly be hindered with the "realism" excuse.

 

Special zombies is a great step in the right direction for 7dtd to achieve non realistic epicness. Giant green radiated self regenerating zombies is definitely not realistic (but neither is a basic zombie, but wont get into that...) but does that make the game worse? No. It's a hurdle for you to jump over once you practice. Zombies breaking into your place is not realistic, but it's a game mechanic of the game. If once you get to stone based fortifications and zombies arent able to get to you, what's the point of it all? You survived.. good job? You survived for what exactly? It's day 3 and you're untouchable with 224 weapons with 10000 ammo for every one of them, but the zombies are no longer a threat. What then? This is why special zombies, or non realistic events happen. It makes the game a game.

 

There once was this game called Firefall (rest in piece, you amazing bastard)... They had these things called Thumpers. You call one in near a mining area and have to defend it while it does it's job. I was working on my own take on that through moding...

 

 

Go ahead and make fun of the model, idc. I'm not a professional in the least. But it demonstrates something. How awesome would it be to instead of digging down and mining, you find an item that lets you call in a heavy duty miner? It makes a ton of noise, so it triggers an event in which zombies swarm you worse than horde night. You have to defend it until it's done. After that, you get to reap the rewards and benefits of it.

 

Is this realistic? Not even close! But is it epic? YESSSSS! And that's what games need! Not realistic going into a mine to mine a bit of iron on the side of a rock with nothing there to interrupt you or harass you while you do it.

 

Again, this is not a post to ♥♥♥♥ all over the realism side of games. A small amount of realism is perfectly fine with me. But you lose me once it gets to the game being over in just an hour because after that, you're untouchable.

 

This is a view from someone who is not in to realism. You have seen what I think personally. I am curious to see what you guys say about this. It's something that I have wanted to really talk about for a while, but just haven't gotten around to it.

 

So, leave your comments. Realism.. What do you think and why? I'm wanting an actual conversation about it all. If you're going to post "realistic or gtfo" then... just dont. You're the cause of cancer. Give me a rebuttal that is thought out and exempt of 10 year old name calling syndrome.

 

Thanks all!

 

Sorry for the long ass post...

[AiRJacobs]

SHORT ANSWER: To some, realism=fun because the game is a way to live out a fantasy and the closer that fantasy is to reality, the more believable it is. BUT. Too much realism takes away fun by putting a wall of complicated mechanics between the player and the fantasy (kind of like bad controls).

 

LONG ANSWER:

People want to play games because they are an escape from the real world, and a computer simulation of something they'd rather be doing. Some people want to play Mario, others, ARMA. On the realism side of things, people want to basically do something that could be done in the real world (or something close to it), but they otherwise can't for a variety of reasons, most commonly that they don't want any consequences. Another reason, in the case of 7DTD, is that there are factors that cannot be created in the real world (zombie apocalypse), but everything else could be recreated. So, the game acts as a medium to bridge real and fantasy. As for other scenarios, maybe I want to race down a street. I would rather play the latest Need For Speed, than actually illegally street race and risk crashing or getting arrested. Maybe I want to shoot some bad guys in the middle east, so instead of joining the USMC (for obvious reasons), I'll go play some Battlefield or Insurgency. The key is that for these "realistic" scenarios to work, the simulation has to be close enough to the real thing, otherwise it's pointless, considering the intention of the player. Some people find that the closer it is to the real thing, the more fun it becomes BECAUSE they find fun in the real thing (but don't want consequences). What it all comes down to is that these players will get the most out of these fantasies, the closer that fantasy is to a real possibility. I guess it feels like living a second life.

 

HOWEVER

 

There are some features that may be realistic, but are not necessary. Like crack addicts, these players seek more, and more realism when what was once satisfying is no longer enough. That's how 7DTD in particular ended up with broken legs as a mechanic. I could rant on about how it in no way adds any enjoyment to the game, but "realistic" players love that ♥♥♥♥. I see posts all the time about players wanting weird "realistic" stuff in the game. If they had their way, every disease and cancer would be in 7DTD. At this point, I would argue that their are some things that are too realistic and delve into the un-fun territory that you speak of in this thread. At that point, the fun is gone for 99% of the player base and you might as well just find a way to do whatever it is you wanted to do in game, in real life. If I could pinpoint the line between realistic and fun, it's where game mechanics begin to impede the player in a similar way that bad controls break the extension to the game that said controls were suppose to give the player. I'm not talking about a game being hard (like DOOM on Nightmare), or have challenging mechanics (like complicated puzzles). I'm referring to the mechanics that serve no other purpose than to impede the player's progress, with no positive element associated with it... ...Something as dumb as breaking your damn leg while slowly descending a hill. It literally serves no purpose other than to punish the player for receiving fall damage (which is redundant because fall damage is already a punishment, but what do I know?). I suppose that's fun to some people.

[LuckyStar]

#1 Realism should always take a back seat to game play.

 

#2 Say what you need to say in as few words as possible.

 

That is all.

 

[Anxiously waits for the explosion this thread will inevitably create]

 

 

[Mumpfy]

i guess is a very personal view. for me as an example when I talk realism im always considering the game essence, but that depends now also of the mod, as i said once in discord, if you are doing medieval mod and have dragons its ok with me, now if you put for example your model in it it would feel "unrealistic" to me, same way around, i think you said you are trying to do a kind of more techno or scifi mod, so your model fits perfect and medieval dragons would make it weird.

 

my point is basically that i like the mods when i see thoughful combo of assets and modifications, then if you go futuristic or medieval or hello kitty theme its just a matter of what you like to play. it just dosnt feel "real" to me if someone just dorps a bounch of stuff that makes it feel a bit outside the logic of the mod or not even a logic at all.

[4sheetzngeegles]

I liked your post. I like fantasy, realism in a game to me is an oxymoron. Realistic scale, sometimes. Realistic situations also sometimes. But im playing to get away from excessive reality. My favorite game that i always refer back to DarkSouls 3 The bosses were Gigantic. But the main change wasnt their size. It was their timing. Just like what Joel did in a17. The timing of the entities. no loger follows ABC its more AQM if 3 then C. Not at all realistic but draws me in like a good book. Thats all i look for in a game. Is it a good read.

[Telric]

@airjacobs I get it. When i first started moding 7dtd, i was going to add the chance to get a scrape on your leg just from walking through one of those azalea bushes. Or have the chance to "stumble" when you walked over a small stone.. I quickly learned how much that detracted from gameplay and was completely useless. I was more worried about where every step i was taking would land than where the next zombie was coming from. That's where realism crosses the line. Game play and mechanics always needs to be the driver of a game, not the amount of realism in it.

 

And that, i think, is the full reason many of these features are in 7dtd. Glowy green guys are a game mechanic to give people with a lot of ammo something to do. That's why they are there, no realism involved.

 

@mumpfy Yes you like to pick on my models... Just kidding buddy! lol. But i agree. Mods need a theme. So does 7dtd and all other games. My little space ship miner thingy doesnt belong in 7dtd.. But it would if i modded the world the way I was / is going to. So realism would have a different meaning in my mod. Realism meaning a realistic sense within my mod and only my mod.

[RestInPieces]

Here are some things I posted about realism today. Go ahead and read them.

 

When using the term "realistic" (which many known devs use, spare me from trying to find random interviews, it's 4.30 am here) in fantasy games, they are trying to convey a specific message. They do not use the term to just fruitlessly contradict themselves. They use realism as a measure of believability in the game itself. Even if that game is a pure fantasy game like Kingdom Hearts or Binding of Isaac etc.

Developers often talk about realism for various game aspects - why do you think that is, since the vast majority of games contain fantasy content?

 

"Realism" in video games is not about the game being realistic to RL, it's about the game being realistic to its own universe/lore/theme/setting. For example - the game takes place on an earth-like place with physics, rules and entities which obey to these rules etc, and beyond that point the level of realism can differ according to gameplay needs/limitations, like - the player also has human-like needs etc. For example a gigantic, incorporeal, black hole-farting unicorn is unrealistic for this universe.

 

An acid-vomiting vulture doesn't go that far, but is still something gimmicky that barely fits that universe. You can say "but TFP decide what the universe will look like", so they might as well add that unicorn or add random fantasy enemies/magic spells etc irrelevant to the setting. They sure can, but a well-structured setting is valuable to any form of art (even abstract art has a framework), movies, games, you name it.

 

Creating a theme is not that simple. You can say that the giant hornet worked in Fallout - why would they replace it with vultures here? Besides its annoying buzz, the Fallout universe is a well-constructed one, with a variety of mutated animals/plants and environmental/lore/visual clues that make giant hornets believable and realistic to that setting.

 

In 7DTD it just didn't fit. Vultures "made more sense" than giant hornets/were more realistic to this universe. Small birds throwing acid projectiles not so much. One might even say that it scratches the realm of "magic". Let me give you an example - why are cops bloated? By being bloated, the player gets an involuntary cue that they are bloated with something. And creators tend to design creatures in accordance with what they do, sometimes even involuntarily! These are essentially, subtle, low level attempts at realism.

 

 

Surely, because gameplay takes precedence over realism, they are better than nothing at the moment. But realism and good gameplay are not mutually exclusive. Realism, besides making the universe more believable (immersion), it can offer much to gameplay, which already happens with human needs, diseases, injuries, crafting, vehicles, pretty much most things in this game. Even the new inventory/"weight" system is a realism attempt for a more engaging gameplay experience, but obviously, a perfectly realistic weight system would harm gameplay instead. Not having a gyro threat would also harm gameplay, so a solution is needed. But it might as well be something more realistic, which is a win-win.

 

The only reason for this "confusion" is because, when someone talks about realism, people think he talks about some rigid real life standards. They do not think holistically. And it's not the case in most occasions - it's about immersion. And immersion comes from the believability of the game's universe, no matter how fantastical it is.

[LuckyStar]

Hahaha RIP!

 

Okay I KNEW you were gonna post here.

 

But.... quoting yourself?!??

 

Oh my gawd I'm seriously laughing right now.

Hahaha.... yeah that was good!

 

[RestInPieces]

Hahaha RIP!

 

Okay I KNEW you were gonna post here.

 

But.... quoting yourself?!??

 

Oh my gawd I'm seriously laughing right now.

Hahaha.... yeah that was good!

 

Are you kidding? I love quoting myself, I do it all the time!

[LuckyStar]

Lol can't wait for Vik to see this thread.

 

He's gonna salivate over it like a starving dog with a steak!

 

Then the two of you can create a symphony together of ...

 

"But.... my realism!"

 

[RestInPieces]

Lol can't wait for Vik to see this thread.

 

He's gonna salivate over it like a starving dog with a steak!

 

Then the two of you can create a symphony together of ...

 

"But.... my realism!"

 

You and your forum fantasies

[LuckyStar]

You and your forum fantasies

 

[Morloc]

 

-Morloc

[Telric]

@restinpieces Gotcha. Immersion is another thing i see thrown around like my old girlfriend... People seem to think that one little thing standing out is ruining the immersion. Such as "bullet spongy cops"... Idk. for me, not everything has to have a realistic or immersive meaning in a game. Why does a plant come out of a green tube in mario? Not very immersive, and def not realistic. It matches the setting of the game, sure. But if it wasn't there, would the game be any less or more fun? Same for the cops (as an example)... The game would be no more or no less fun than it is now. They are just there to be there to me. No meaning needed.

 

I'm interested to see what peoples ideas of immersion are. Feeling like the character is you is what i'd say immersion is.. But i dont get that playing games. I mean i think about what i'd do if i were in that situation. Do i take the can of sham, or do i drop it for more wood so i can maybe make a splint later on... That's about as far as my immersion goes personally. It doesnt drive my gameplay much more than that. I'm not thinking "oh another bloated zombie, now i'm taken out of the game until he dies and i forget about him"... Maybe someone can chime in about what makes immersion to them... Maybe its just a me thing. lol

 

Also, thanks guys for staying on topic! Really good stuffs. I like real conversations.

[OzHawkeye]

Well, I'll walk right into Morloc's trap and comment.... ;-)

 

I don't give the slightest hoot about realism in a game, in fact, I'll go further and specifically say I HATE realism in a game, I play games to ESCAPE from realism!

 

I do like games to be self-consistent, within the boundaries of their established settings, so I wouldn't personally like to see Lightsabers in the game (though I had fun mucking around with a mod for 7Days that did exactly that) any more than I should worry about zombies attacking my Factorio base every 7 days either.

 

So my order of preference is:

 

1. The Player Is King - make it moddable in every possible way.

2. Gameplay.

3. Graphics.

.........

1098029793872+E^314516. Realism.

[LuckyStar]

Well, I'll walk right into Morloc's trap and comment.... ;-)

 

I don't give the slightest hoot about realism in a game, in fact, I'll go further and specifically say I HATE realism in a game, I play games to ESCAPE from realism!

 

I do like games to be self-consistent, within the boundaries of their established settings, so I wouldn't personally like to see Lightsabers in the game (though I had fun mucking around with a mod for 7Days that did exactly that) any more than I should worry about zombies attacking my Factorio base every 7 days either.

 

So my order of preference is:

 

1. The Player Is King - make it moddable in every possible way.

2. Gameplay.

3. Graphics.

.........

1098029793872+E^314516. Realism.

 

[RestInPieces]

 

-Morloc

 

 

@Telric - Well, immersion is a "nebulous" topic yes, but in general it's about how believable everything is in the game you are playing - not compared to real life. Getting "immersed" in the game is just the game fully catching your attention span, which is always a good thing, don't you think? Feeling like "the character is you" is an extreme example of that - and it doesn't have to always be the case.

Even with Mario, a simple fantasy world filled with tubes, mushrooms, etc, with plants getting out of green tubes. Even Mario has a coherent universe without having to relate to real life.

 

As for bullet sponge zombies, they are just more of a cheap/lazy way to increase difficulty, when one can increase difficulty with more creative/fun ways like for example the recent improvement of zombie AI.

 

I don't give the slightest hoot about realism in a game, in fact, I'll go further and specifically say I HATE realism in a game, I play games to ESCAPE from realism!

 

...you mean reality - escape from reality. And your current reality, not reality in general. You wouldn't want to escape from reality in general. It's terrifying. See? That's why I am saying that terms matter

[Telric]

@ozhawkeye And that's the beauty of this game in particular. The freedom and ease at which you can mod the entire game makes it so you can literally have it subway style. You want tomatos in the form of a sprained leg from stepping at the wrong angle? you can do that! And mods can have a theme that's outside of the theme of the base game (like medi mod). It adds plenty of unrealistic weapons and other things, but it fits the theme pretty well. I'm not fully sure what goes into the realm of 7dtd theme though... I dont see how things like the hornet and green glowies dont fit. Personally.

[OzHawkeye]

@ozhawkeye And that's the beauty of this game in particular. The freedom and ease at which you can mod the entire game makes it so you can literally have it subway style. You want tomatos in the form of a sprained leg from stepping at the wrong angle? you can do that! And mods can have a theme that's outside of the theme of the base game (like medi mod). It adds plenty of unrealistic weapons and other things, but it fits the theme pretty well. I'm not fully sure what goes into the realm of 7dtd theme though... I dont see how things like the hornet and green glowies dont fit. Personally.

 

Well, if someone could for example, make a mod that was all encompassing enough and self-consistent enough for example, to become, "7Days Meets StarWars" then more power to them, and then, Lightsabers (for example) would make sense as part of that mod.

 

One of the things I am MOST looking forward to when the game goes Gold, is trying out all the mods that our fantastic mod community has come up with, particularly after I play out the "base" game.

[SickPuppy]

 

-Morloc

 

Wise words.....however,

 

People who think they want realism in games aren't complaining about realism. They are inadvertently complaining about fun. They don't find a game mechanic fun or something extremely difficult and complain "this games sux it isn't real, mehhhhhhh".

 

You want realism? Carry a full stack of cement blocks back home see how fun that is.

 

Realism and zombies in the same sentence is already a trap.

[LuckyStar]

As for bullet sponge zombies, they are just more of a cheap/lazy way to increase difficulty, when one can increase difficulty with more creative/fun ways like for example the recent improvement of zombie AI.

 

Okay sorry can't let that one go. [Respectfully]

 

Going to go Darkside here and go Realism for a moment.

Don't worry it's temporary. I'm going to go back to making fun of it right after.

 

Dead Island used a mutated Kuru virus to explain zombies.

Essentially your memories become useless when infected with a Prion disease.

All those protein strains bond together and become such a mess that your brain reverts to instinctual behaviour.

Those processes are governed by a tiny little bit of meat at the base of your skull.

Essentially those zombies could withstand a head shot and keep going.

A shot to the body would made little difference [unless we're dealing with some kind of blood flow then shot in the heart would do.]

 

Point is, bullet sponge zombies could arguably be just as realistic under the right circumstances.

 

Although in the end, however..... doesn't matter because...

 

 

 

It's a plot device.

 

Buwaahahahahaha!!!

 

 

 

[RestInPieces]

Okay sorry can't let that one go. [Respectfully]

Although in the end, however..... doesn't matter because...

 

It's a plot device.

 

Buwaahahahahaha!!!

 

 

 

Well played you rascal, well played...

[LuckyStar]

Well played you rascal, well played...

 

[warmer]

I think a lot of it comes from the place we are in now. We are "in" the uncanny valley. Graphics are very realistic now and the worlds we are able to play in have become very close in regard to physics.

 

In a survival setting I always want to have a realistic experience in the sense that what my character goes through will be analogous to how I would experience something.

 

This is a very genre dependent thing. It is also a very selective thing. I think realism is often times used to describe its effect on immersion. That to me is what most people are getting at. Zombies are certainly not real, but neither is a zombie pounding through concrete in a few minutes with their fists.

 

I can accept zombies shambling around in a horde. That makes more sense than a Zombie that can pound through concrete with their fists, yet die easily from a few wooden stakes in the ground. Realism = congruence. With out a congruent world, you have to selectively turn off your objective observations and shift to a completely subjective one.

 

I like GTA 5 for how realistic the physics are, but I sure as hell don't want cops to pay attention to my driving like they do in real life or you'd never finish the game obeying every traffic law.

 

Where and when to draw the line is the hardest part. The difference between fantasy and realism is always going to be hard for devs when making things with super natural aspects.

[LuckyStar]

Where and when to draw the line is the hardest part. The difference between fantasy and realism is always going to be hard for devs when making things with super natural aspects.

 

Game play is the line.

 

You make the game as fun as possible for the most people you can.

Then you accept that you're gonna get flamed by those who don't fit into that group.

 

Nothing else you can do.

 

No matter what you do in this world, there's someone who won't like it.

There's people who don't like this post I'm writing right now.