Developer Discussions: Alpha 17

[stallionsden]

Perlin caves shouldn't be a problem. Just give us a surveyors camera thing lol. If your gonna build a base or lol or prefab you need to survelleince the area you intend to build to check for so weaknesses caves etc. No need for this foundation stuff.

[Jackelmyer]

That is why I think that granite should not transfer sideways SI and not get sideways SI (i.e. granite would always fall if nothing is below it), so a staircase design is not possible.

 

If granite falls if there's nothing below it, the purpose of granite is defeated at least how I envision granite.

 

The point of granite is to ensure air blocks in naturally made caves, caverns, tunnels, or around terrain that zombies dig through, have some form of SI reset above the air pocket.

 

If granite falls with nothing under it, it wouldn't ever be able to form a ceiling.

 

I don't like a big world granite slab. Where at -20 height, there's some granite layer a few blocks thick. You just narrow SI problems that way.

 

But that image of a base on top of granite wouldn't work if Granite had the SI of Stone. The shelf of granite would have collapsed itself.

[Jackelmyer]

Perlin caves shouldn't be a problem. Just give us a surveyors camera thing lol. If your gonna build a base or lol or prefab you need to survelleince the area you intend to build to check for so weaknesses caves etc. No need for this foundation stuff.

 

That could work. Tedious as hell. I'd rather a world game mechanic handle it.

[Roland]

Perlin caves shouldn't be a problem. Just give us a surveyors camera thing lol. If your gonna build a base or lol or prefab you need to survelleince the area you intend to build to check for so weaknesses caves etc. No need for this foundation stuff.

 

Just disable it on PvP servers I suppose?

[meganoth]

If granite falls if there's nothing below it, the purpose of granite is defeated at least how I envision granite.

 

The point of granite is to ensure air blocks naturally made, caves, caverns, tunnels, or around terrain that zombies dig through, have some form of SI reset above the air pocket.

 

If granite falls with nothing under it, it wouldn't ever be able to form a ceiling.

 

Think of a cave with a normal ceiling of stone. Above that ceiling of stone, maybe directly or any number of layers above is the granite layer. Works.

 

But anyway, since I wrote that, I had to edit my post because giving granite no sideways stability doesn't prevent a staircase design, it just makes it slightly bigger. So yes, giving it the SI of stone should work as well. It would make 7day statics a bit more out there than it is already.

[Jackelmyer]

Think of a cave with a normal ceiling of stone. Above that ceiling of stone, maybe directly or any number of layers above is the granite layer. Works.

 

I suppose you could wrap the cave in stone then wrap it in granite. But that just seems to complicate things that aren't that complicated imo. Granite with normal behaving SI side faces doesn't allow for bases built on a shelf like that.

[Roland]

Well that's the thing... It may end up increasing load instead of alleviating it. (But still potentially allowing caverns under buildings, as Roland suggested).

It ultimately comes down to the way it's coded I guess...

 

 

 

Well, I was using dirt as an example... How about this:

2 wood frames out over a cliff.

1 foundation block.

200 reinforced concrete blocks stacked high.

Now I know it's not a "safe" building. But still weird .

 

It's not that I don't appreciate the approach...

It's much better than the: if "x" blocks down from the user placed block exist, then SI all good.

 

Your way is better, but it still has some holes...

 

I believe SI calculations happens nearly all the time, and massively too... So I wonder if the game just demands to much raw CPU?

 

So when it's released, maybe it'll be more optimized... And our PC's will be upgraded...

So maybe then?

 

I see what you are saying and my only thought is how good of an exploit is that really? Lets say that a large enough area could be attached to the side of a cliff to be useful as a safe base. There is still the weak point of contact that only takes a few hits and the whole thing comes down. People build stilt bases now that sometime in the future will be quite risky to rely upon.

[meganoth]

I suppose you could wrap the cave in stone then wrap it in granite. But that just seems to complicate things that aren't that complicated imo.

 

You don't need to wrap. There is no use case for Granite below or at the side of a cave. But you are right, it just complicates things

 

Granite with normal behaving SI side faces doesn't allow for bases built on a shelf like that.

 

Why not? The step design allows for arbitrary long sideways building. i,e,:

 

     gg
    gg
   gg
  gg
 gg
gg
gg
g

 

would work because whenever you go from granite block to block above, SI resets and the granite to the side obviously has no problem to attach.

 

If you wanted to say that the ledge on top of the "leaning" pillar can only stretch for a limited horizontal length, that is correct though

[Jackelmyer]

 

I believe SI calculations happens nearly all the time, and massively too... So I wonder if the game just demands to much raw CPU?

 

I believe SI is only calculated after the world has been generated and only if a change to a block occurs.

 

Change being: damaged, block upgraded, new block connected, SI being checked of a neighboring block (i.e. near by SI has changed in reach of current block), entity moves over block invoking SI check + entity weight.

 

I just realized that we have a basic mechanic for all this.

 

Trap blocks. Simply need to reverse their behavior to fit almost all of these ideas. With a few behaviors tweaked.

[Clockwork Orange]

The problem with SI above bedrock is that you can hollow out anything below base SI and it will be floating

[Jackelmyer]

The problem with SI above bedrock is that you can hollow out anything below base SI and it will be floating

 

The current floated designs on most of what's being discussed already countered that.

[Crater Creator]

Problem is what happens if player leaves the underground once [a zombie that digs down from the surface] has been triggered.

 

Fair question. Perhaps the digger zombies can also be climber zombies, and could climb out of the hole if the player returns to the surface. Or they could fully commit to their task once started, and not stop digging down until they're finished (remember, other zombies aren't diggers). The other zombies could ignore the hole in progress until it went all the way through. Or we could re-examine whether a diagonal shaft is really more Swiss-cheesy than a vertical shaft.

 

Tougher is fine. Being an unknowing victim to a system design is generally a rather frustrating situation.

 

Not knowing Zombies are destroying the ground under your base has no means for defense.

 

It's like if they implemented a random lightning strike that insta kills you.

 

Except it can insta kill your base in effect.

 

I think most or all of the proposals start the zombies at or above your level, so they'd only dig under your base if you're under your base. Besides, don't you mole players like to dig down to bedrock anyway?

 

Avoiding gravel in spawning i can see viable and pathing round it is also possible but we would use that surely to funnel zombies and could be expensive resource wise for only the gain of preventing one type of cave in.

 

This would be another reason to skip the process of the dig-and-backfill zombie literally digging its way towards you, and just spawn it up against your wall, where it conceptually would have ended up given time and good pathing algorithms etc.

 

Take a reinforced concrete block, call it a foundation block...

 

Benefits:

 

3) Players could create underground lairs and tunnels without messing up or worrying about what they did above ground.

 

This point shouldn't be oversold, however. If you dig out too much under the foundation block, it will still collapse like anything else. Then whatever's above it stops receiving the benefit, and is vulnerable to collapse itself. It's not as though you can dig under the foundation carefree with no risk to what's above.

[Darkfoxx117]

It's not as though you can dig under the foundation carefree with no risk to what's above.

 

I believe the way people are explaining it is yes you can dig care free under your base with the foundation blocks as long as you don't undermine the dirt blocks directly underneath and to the sides (the ones touching the foundation blocks).

 

So you could in theory go 2 dirt blocks lower than the foundation and excavate a football field size cavern if you wish.

[Crater Creator]

That wouldn't work. The granite has Stone SI itself. Which I think would cause the platform of granite to collapse before you could build that structure. Which is why I like this granite idea so much.

 

Granite top resets SI.

Otherwise... It's stone.

 

And in my version of granite, zombies can still bash granite to bits. So that base likely wouldn't stay up for long. The granite would eventually collapse with zombies banging on the little support below.

 

And who does that? lol. Dig such a huge pit and not just build from the ground all the way up? Looking at it a few more times made me giggle.

 

Okay, you're technically correct. How about this then? The SI of stone is 7 by the way.

 

 

If you think this will collapse, please tell me which block, specifically, won't work.

 

To be clear, I'm not saying you can build a stilt base with granite, since you can already do that. But I am saying you can build even bigger, heavier, less supported stilt bases than you already could. It's not necessarily a deal breaker, but it's something to consider, especially since zombies will not bang on the support right now, and we don't know what the solution to stilt bases will be or what assumptions the design may be predicated on to work.

[Crater Creator]

I get what Tin is saying I think. It's an air block. Where all it does is reset SI of whatever's above it. Otherwise, it's only an air block. Build through it sure. But no sticky points on it.

 

Very well then. I pick a patch on the ceiling of the tunnel, consisting of the natural stone or granite or whatever blocks resting directly on top of the 'strong air' blocks. I dig away everything above and to the sides of these blocks. I put a layer of concrete on top of these blocks. Now I build up and out, sticking to the concrete but not to the strong air or natural blocks. I now have an unattached base that floats on strong air.

[Crater Creator]

@Crater Creator

 

The sound been added was more a player warning driven device from the fact that if no material was being altered then no sound will be heard so this will need to be added.

 

I was gueesing once zombies could be heard they should be seen otherwise you would need to trace when a zombie was near to be uncovered then make them a visible entity that can collide.

 

If this could be handled by occlusion culling then thats fantastic as it only need sound added to the zombie

 

The audible distance and the visible distance can be handled independently. It doesn't matter which is larger, but do consider that while they're digging through solid dirt, you can't see them because there's dirt in the way.

 

So to recap on compiling some suggestions.

 

Special zombies (VDZ) can dig vertical targeting a underground base.

 

Underground spawning zombies (USZ) can converge on vertical shaft and then target underground base.

 

Terrain blocks that USZ clear regenerate in a short time and turn back into terrain.

 

USZ are highly audiable so a player has a chance to detect.

 

I like ouch's idea of digging a certain vertical block depth but i would push the button activating USZ at a certain depth so if it was high elevation terrain then there is still danger even if another player kills the VDZ.

 

I don't see why the underground spawning zombies would need to move towards the vertical shaft. Surface zombies, sure, but the underground ones are already underground. They can take a direct route to wherever you are.

[Tin]

Very well then. I pick a patch on the ceiling of the tunnel, consisting of the natural stone or granite or whatever blocks resting directly on top of the 'strong air' blocks. I dig away everything above and to the sides of these blocks. I put a layer of concrete on top of these blocks. Now I build up and out, sticking to the concrete but not to the strong air or natural blocks. I now have an unattached base that floats on strong air.

 

yeah...No! try that underwater and what do you get .. falling blocks. it would be your same example.

 

Still think Roland's idea has more merit. just because it would also add an extra element to the building aspect.

[Jackelmyer]

Okay, you're technically correct. How about this then? The SI of stone is 7 by the way.

 

 

If you think this will collapse, please tell me which block, specifically, won't work.

 

To be clear, I'm not saying you can build a stilt base with granite, since you can already do that. But I am saying you can build even bigger, heavier, less supported stilt bases than you already could. It's not necessarily a deal breaker, but it's something to consider, especially since zombies will not bang on the support right now, and we don't know what the solution to stilt bases will be or what assumptions the design may be predicated on to work.

 

That's actually really damn clever. I'd honestly have to recheck the SI of Stone. Though to be honest I'd rather the granite be a bit more sturdy than stone. Bigger caverns.

 

And being doubly fair and honest, in this latest example, you don't even need the full L joint on the granite m. Just one steel block on the side of the granite platform. But still, it'd only extend to the max that stone can. Still... It's not floating. And that's a pretty damn prone base.

 

I think in the end based on what I was shooting for, is that caves, caverns, and tunnels would be world genned. So though yeah... You could do that... You'd have less choices of where you could build. And to me that matters a lot. As for me, location location location makes a good base.

 

Though. To be fair. In game play perspectives... It'd end up a late stages base build. You'd have to go digging for your cavern to build on. That's a crap load of slow searching unless RNG is on your side. And in my mind, the entire underworld isn't chalked full of caves and caverns. Making it that much more challenging to find such a site to build on.

 

If you want to work that hard to make a shelf base? Have at it.

[Jackelmyer]

Very well then. I pick a patch on the ceiling of the tunnel, consisting of the natural stone or granite or whatever blocks resting directly on top of the 'strong air' blocks. I dig away everything above and to the sides of these blocks. I put a layer of concrete on top of these blocks. Now I build up and out, sticking to the concrete but not to the strong air or natural blocks. I now have an unattached base that floats on strong air.

 

I think what Tin is saying is that the Air blocks don't actually provide support themselves. They only reset the block above. So effectively the block above is unsupported. But any block above that is sitting on a supported block.

 

S

S

s

A

A

S

S

B

 

S - Supported Stone

s - Unsupported Stone

A - Air

B - bedrock

 

The unsupported stone block still needs to be stuck to something that is supported in this example.

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

yeah...No! try that underwater and what do you get .. falling blocks. it would be your same example.

 

Still think Roland's idea has more merit. just because it would also add an extra element to the building aspect.

 

I'm still smelling something funny with the foundation block. I need to relook at the rules Roland put out for it because I think they're conflicting rules too. Hope to get to a PC to double check.

[Tin]

I think what Tin is saying is that the Air blocks don't actually provide support themselves. They only reset the block above. So effectively the block above is unsupported. But any block above that is sitting on a supported block.

 

S

S

s

A

A

S

S

B

 

S - Supported Stone

s - Unsupported Stone

A - Air

B - bedrock

 

The unsupported stone block still needs to be stuck to something that is supported in this example.

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

 

 

I'm still smelling something funny with the foundation block. I need to relook at the rules Roland put out for it because I think they're conflicting rules too. Hope to get to a PC to double check.

 

I like it because it involves making a foundation but it may have some underlying issue. who knows

[Ouch Quit It]

I don't see why the underground spawning zombies would need to move towards the vertical shaft. Surface zombies, sure, but the underground ones are already underground. They can take a direct route to wherever you are.

 

Most people put up a wall above ground....they hit your wall and start digging down...within their radius of detection they sense you or a player placed block(shaft)...they turn and horizontally head towards that direction/block(s).

 

OUCH

 

COUGHS * VIDEO * Coughs

[Roland]

I believe the way people are explaining it is yes you can dig care free under your base with the foundation blocks as long as you don't undermine the dirt blocks directly underneath and to the sides (the ones touching the foundation blocks).

 

So you could in theory go 2 dirt blocks lower than the foundation and excavate a football field size cavern if you wish.

 

Not quite THAT carefree. I was more thinking you might go down 10 meters or so and create a large cavern. At any rate I don’t believe a two layer ceiling of dirt would hold up even on its own regardless of whether it had a building on top of it if you tried even just the end zone area of a football field.

 

Menace is absolutely right that weird situations could occur such as how much you could stack on blocks attached to the side of a cliff but as I said you can’t create a large enough area unsupported even without adding a foundation to really make it viable. And even if you’re satisfied with a small area to work with, your base is very vulnerable to suddenly coming crashing down.

[Jackelmyer]

Hey Roland?

 

Can you do me a favor? Can you quote or restate the most complete list of rules for a foundation block? I'm struggling to put it all together again. Sorry man. Really want to relook at the whole idea all put together again at this point.

[Roland]

Like Jacklemyer, I don’t believe that the game is constantly checking SI. The proof of that are unstable prefabs that are still in the game and they stand just fine until you remove something or add something or walk on them depending on whatever action causes the game at that moment to check SI and then the whole building crumbles.

 

Really the only question is whether the game checks SI from the point of action down to bedrock or from bedrock up to the point of action.

[Crater Creator]

I am not sure that I can follow you. What about air blocks? What happens if the ray hits an air block?

 

The ray continues through air blocks, because air blocks are not player-placed blocks.

 

I had to think about why this was important for a bit. I imagine what you're getting at is that you could have a big pit outside your base that the digger zombies get across when they shouldn't. However, they still stop when they hit the first player-placed block, and that means they either spawn inside terrain, or in air.

 

If in terrain, they stand on some kind of terrain block and start attacking your wall, as if they spawned on the near side of the pit. If in air, they fall to the ground like Wile E. Coyote, because that's where they'd end up if they spawned far away and went through the motions of approaching you. Remember, the late spawning isn't to change their behavior for better or worse; it's to improve performance.