Developer Discussions: Alpha 17

[dhlmaster]

That's what people living above ground have to deal with all the time. It's exactly the kind of challenge you miss out on when living underground. The way you talk about this like it's something new, I have to wonder if there are some dwarves out there that, because they stay underground, had never even considered the issue of stuff against walls being vulnerable. That would be a shame.

 

Dwarves have to worry about Dark Elves and other nasty things from the Underdark. They should be very aware of the vulnerability of their cave walls. That's what this game needs! Creatures from the Underdark attacking your underground base!

/s

[dhlmaster]

Very nice. I like this new modular approach. Not sure about the purpose of a bathtub filled with brains though.^^

 

Maybe it can be used to attract the zombies.

[Roland]

Roland, I have died more times from falling down one of my elaborate pits than anything else. So, for me, digging down is almost a guarantee that I will be starting a new game soon.

 

Royal has some hay to sell to you...

[Aldranon]

Yeah, that's what I was thinking too. You can "fake it" by having zombies appear near a player, but the illusion doesn't hold up after a while. Virtual zombies maintain a presence of zombies in the world without the chunks having to be loaded and without the zombies actually being in the game, just an x,y,z coordinate of where they should be if you happen to travel there. For zombies that are near you that you can see and interact with I don't think there's much resources to be saved, unless you got really creative for distant zombies where they are missing AI routines like someone suggested, but they can still take a sniper shot to the head in a convincing way.

 

You can then do things like clearing out a 3x3 chunk area and having the middle chunk be a small village for friendly NPC's and keep the perimeter chunks patrolled. A level of peace for them as long as the player doesn't live with them on horde night!

 

So Zombie migration would start from the edges of the map and walk their way around generally toward people.

The second migration would be the blood moon horde and perhaps the players finds out its was planned by some organization. Greenpeace most likely.

[Aldranon]

Royal has some hay to sell to you...

 

I don't know, would you trust a loaf of moldy cheese bread? Look at his eyes... they're yeasty.

[Zombuild]

I don't know, would you trust a loaf of moldy cheese bread? Look at his eyes... they're yeasty.

 

Maybe he just do not age very well.

[chaosterone]

I always liked the idea of herds of zombies migrating towards noise, and virtual zombies could do this if given simple A.I.

 

Imagine if you set up base outside a city, you would make noise while building and running the forge. Zombies within range of that noise might hear it and migrate towards the source.

 

Using guns and explosives make more noise that travels further, causing zombies and virtual zombies within a guestimated 5 kilometer range start migrating towards the source. You could end up with a big herd of guests at your front door.

 

If this could be programmed so explosions also wake up sleepers in the city you built near, well, you'll have some excitement.

[Zombuild]

If this could be programmed so explosions also wake up sleepers in the city you built near, well, you'll have some excitement.

 

My problem with this is that they would also damage the buildings they are in and have a chance of destroying loot. What do you do if wandering zombies hit mined military bases...

[Aldranon]

With most A.I. you need to cheat. Its like a magic act.

 

So every time you shoot a gun, it just increments a value in that area you are in by +1. Explosion +50

Then when the migration event occurs a simple formula gets where zombies go at night.

 

Getting fancy you can get more than just adjacent areas: 1/4th the noise for two away, 1/9th the noise for 3 away, ect.

 

So a smart survivor can led zombies away from an NPC village by expending TNT some distance away from the village.

 

Edit: To keep them all from going to another area, have all background noise in each area be 100, then do a percentage of player noise to background noise and that's how many zombies in that area migrate to the noise.

 

Edit2: You can also have an "Aggression level" to each type of zombie:

Radiated: -95 to background noise

Z-Dogs: -75 to background noise

Base Zombie: +25

 

So if you made a huge noise that day, that night is going to get real bad.

[ZombieToad]

I remember MM saying that the forum would explode or something like that if they told of whats coming in A17.

 

Considering we have just gotten another piece of art and modelled baths, and the 6 things listed (should be 5 taking away the hog which was technically already in) and this has taken at very minimum 1 month, that means a LOT more should be what? Twice, three times that? Getting ideas out, nailed down, concepted into art, then modelled and the magic worky stuff thrown in what does that mean?

 

I think maybe a three month job at least for Alpha 17. Someone mentioned recently, 9 months? Since A16? I dont remember but adding three on would take it to around a year. Thats almost what it took going from A15 to 16 right?

 

If my numbers are off, don't be a ♥♥♥♥. Just correct me because my memory is terrible for things like this. And considering the 3 week (minimum) silence on the big bad bugs recently, it makes you wonder where the workload is on The Pimps.

 

I know they have a lot on their plate, and I sympathise. I wonder what the next video will have in store, maybe showcasing the recent stuff (baths and pallets) or maybe something we havent seen yet. Oh the excitement

 

This is a real answer

So real it has a own Webpage https://www.braintan.com/

 

Holy crap that is creepier than MM's bath. Wearing brain leather wtf O.O"

[Crater Creator]

Lol then it really would be the boring game Roland is talking about.

The garden thing will work because you could have a shaft for light, but the infinite water will be fixed eventually I expect.

Also that didn't address the looting part. Without the looting you would just be in there eating and drinking. Maybe some mining.

 

This is where both sides can agree they should focus on making the game more fun. Just having a part of the game be boring isn't enough of an incentive to coax people away from that and into the fun parts of the game. So the options are to A) push them out to the fun area (like with radiation or flooding); or B) bring the fun to them. To me, fighting and defending against zombies is fun, so I see bringing zombies to the player as a carrot, not a stick.

 

Not really, you could place concrete walls near the surface and in the lateral accesses. So you couldn't SAY that it tunneled from the surface (unless you're going to say that the zed's used a concrete mixers to repair the player placed walls).^^

 

A spawn next to my underground base is essentially the same as a spawn on my head. To me, there is just one crucial difference: In the latter case, you can see that the game cheats you (so actually, it's an honest solution) whereas underground spawns feel as if the devs take me for a fool.

 

If you've closed off all routes into the dirt with concrete, at that point one could argue your base now extends to those outer reaches, and the interior just happens to be full of dirt like the Great Wall of China. In which case, I would hope the zombies would start at your outer wall instead of your inner wall... unless you've made a sprawling city that exceeds the size of the loaded chunks, in which case all bets are off if you want a game with zombies.

 

The zombies are going to spawn somewhere; we all know that. Whether they spawn a mile away and shamble towards you, or spawn just outside the first obstacle they actually have to interact with, only makes a difference in terms of performance from a practical standpoint. Asking for hundreds of persistent, distant zombies that you can see moving and snipe (not that Pille is asking for that) is asking for a lot, which is why games don't do it.

[Crater Creator]

We long winded people rarely get responded to.

 

Just know... I skimmed... And I'm pretty sure you're wrong. But I'm on my phone now pooping and don't like long winded writing on a virtual keyboard...

 

So...

 

At least know you're not ignored. ❤️

 

No worries. I know the long multi-part posts are more cumbersome, but when there's 10+ pages of activity in a day I want to respond to, using that multi-quote button is my only chance of keeping up.

[Pille]

If you've closed off all routes into the dirt with concrete, at that point one could argue your base now extends to those outer reaches, and the interior just happens to be full of dirt like the Great Wall of China. In which case, I would hope the zombies would start at your outer wall instead of your inner wall... unless you've made a sprawling city that exceeds the size of the loaded chunks, in which case all bets are off if you want a game with zombies.

I would use a non-closed system consisting of air and rock instead of concrete. Btw. why they don't make any digging sound effects if they come from the surface? Why we cannot see them in multiplayer?

 

You cannot believably simulate zombies that tunneled from the surface.

[Crater Creator]

Very nice. I like this new modular approach. Not sure about the purpose of a bathtub filled with brains though.^^

 

I hope Royal Deluxe is right that it's a tanning station. I'm pretty psyched for that, because it's a real survival thing, and over time the overlap between animal hide and leather has been growing. I've been worried they were going to consolidate the two, so that you're slicing tanned leather directly off carcasses.

 

I think it'd be neat to have a wider range of stations, requiring more decisions on what to focus on first. I don't know why else the game would have a bathtub of brains. It's a gory game, but you don't see buckets of gore just thrown about in houses for shock value. I presume one would craft the tanning station using a bathtub and brains, so maybe we'll see brains added as a harvestable resource, which could potentially have other interesting uses (insert Gazz pun about using one's brains).

 

Not everyone utilises their brain very much so re-purposing it as a harvestable resource sounds sensible. - Gazz

[Crater Creator]

I would use a non-closed system consisting of air and rock instead of concrete. Btw. why they don't make any digging sound effects if they come from the surface? Why we cannot see them in multiplayer?

 

You cannot believably simulate zombies that tunneled from the surface.

 

Then how can you prove the zombie didn't start at wherever the opening is, alternately tunnel through dirt and walk through air, leaving the dirt to fill in behind it in the latter case, until it reached your base wall and started attacking it?

[Pille]

I think it'd be neat to have a wider range of stations, requiring more decisions on what to focus on first. I don't know why else the game would have a bathtub of brains. .

 

Mhh maybe there will be a crazy zombie cult (new faction) that needs this kind of things for ceremonies.^^

 

Then how can you prove the zombie didn't start at wherever the opening is, alternately tunnel through dirt and walk through air, leaving the dirt to fill in behind it in the latter case, until it reached your base wall and started attacking it?

 

Don't want to further explain my arguments because I know I am right. ;p (Actually I have no time right now).

 

 

 

Edit:

There wouldn't be an opening. I think of a structure of 1 block thick walls or bars that makes it impossible to distinguish between inside and outside. Btw. it's still unexplained why nobody ever sees or hears these digging zombies (except when they're breaking through walls of underground bases).

 

Imho it's obvious that you cannot fool the players using such cheap mechanics. I mean we're talking about a game with completely destructible environment and multiplayer. Please spawn zombies on the top of my head instead. It's at least an honest way to threaten me.

[Pille]

T

The zombies are going to spawn somewhere; we all know that. Whether they spawn a mile away and shamble towards you, or spawn just outside the first obstacle they actually have to interact with, only makes a difference in terms of performance from a practical standpoint. Asking for hundreds of persistent, distant zombies that you can see moving and snipe (not that Pille is asking for that) is asking for a lot, which is why games don't do it.

 

Someone had the idea of virtual zombies. This could be used to simulate spawns outside of the accessible area (so basically in the radiation zone). You could use a greatly simplified model to calculate those virtual (and persistent) zombies and their movements. All the game has to save are their locations, directions of motion and zombie types. Using this approach it should be possible to simulate tens of thousands of zombies populating the world.

 

Do you know what I mean? I know my description is woolly.^^

[Crater Creator]

If a tree falls in the forest...

 

There wouldn't be an opening. I think of a structure of 1 block thick walls or bars that makes it impossible to distinguish between inside and outside. Btw. it's still unexplained why nobody ever sees or hears these digging zombies (except when they're breaking through walls of underground bases).

 

Imho it's obvious that you cannot fool the players using such cheap mechanics. I mean we're talking about a game with completely destructible environment and multiplayer. Please spawn zombies on the top of my head instead. It's at least an honest way to threaten me.

 

You said a non-closed system. That means there's an opening (e.g. a path that doesn't go through a player placed block) by definition, unless you're going non-Euclidean or something.

 

Regardless, the game only needs to simulate when something happens to change the world, or something that can be observed directly. Anything else is wasted electrons. For instance, raindrops fall on you but not on anything two biomes over. There is no weather two biomes over, but when done correctly you can't tell.

 

So sure, start the zombie at the maximum distance from which it can be heard by the player, instead of necessarily right up against the wall, with the wall being the closest it can spawn. Though that audible distance can be anything they want it to be, because we have no idea how loud a digging zombie is. If they say zombies dig silently, then zombies dig silently.

 

You don't see them digging because they're surrounded on all sides by solids, and you can't see through solids. When it breaks through to create an unobstructed line of sight between you and it, that's the first point at which you can see it, and so it's the first point at which it needs to bother rendering. Seems simple to me. A well optimized game does this already via occlusion culling, it's just limited to the zombie's rendering rather than other processing.

 

Now if the tunnel didn't fill back in - if that weren't established as an in-game phenomenon - it would break the suspension of disbelief, because we'd be back to "how did the zombie get to this arbitrary position underground?" whether a tunnel led back to a dead end, or there was just a bubble right against the wall with no tunnel.

[Pille]

You said a non-closed system. That means there's an opening (e.g. a path that doesn't go through a player placed block) by definition, unless you're going non-Euclidean or something.

 

The opening would be a several hundred meters long tunnel leading to the next trader (or something like that).

 

Regardless, the game only needs to simulate when something happens to change the world, or something that can be observed directly. Anything else is wasted electrons. For instance, raindrops fall on you but not on anything two biomes over. There is no weather two biomes over, but when done correctly you can't tell.

 

So sure, start the zombie at the maximum distance from which it can be heard by the player, instead of necessarily right up against the wall, with the wall being the closest it can spawn. Though that audible distance can be anything they want it to be, because we have no idea how loud a digging zombie is. If they say zombies dig silently, then zombies dig silently.

 

Don't know why we shouldn't be able to determine the loudness of a digging zombie. If they dig, you can find out how loud they are?

 

If they say zombies dig silently, then zombies dig silently.

Until they're close to my walls.^^

[Doombringer101]

I predict whatever they come up with will be 'unrealistic' or 'immersion breaking' to a certain % of people.

I also expect that the Pimp's won't be too worried by this if it creates the game play mechanics they are after.

Fun > Realism as they have said before.

[Gazz]

I predict whatever they come up with will be 'unrealistic' or 'immersion breaking' to a certain % of people.

I also expect that the Pimp's won't be too worried by this if it creates the game play mechanics they are after.

Fun > Realism as they have said before.

If the gameplay works then sorry, but... screw realism. It's why you can carry 30000 tons of concrete without using your hotbar.

[Doombringer101]

If the gameplay works then sorry, but... screw realism. It's why you can carry 30000 tons of concrete without using your hotbar.

 

Works for me

[Pille]

I predict whatever they come up with will be 'unrealistic' or 'immersion breaking' to a certain % of people.

I also expect that the Pimp's won't be too worried by this if it creates the game play mechanics they are after.

Fun > Realism as they have said before.

 

It's not about realism or immersion. The game should respect its own rules. That's what it's all about. It shouldn't throw everything overboard just to create a threat.

[Gazz]

It also shouldn't throw "zombies destroying blocks in order to get to you" overboard in order to keep the underground a safe haven.