Developer Discussions: Alpha 17

[Roland]

I didnt say he said that, you are linking my quote to him, not me.

 

Also I corrected my post to reflect his post which was zombies spawning underground, including in tunnels built by the player.

 

New point --->If 'air pockets' are what I understand to be places without blocks (if not then correct me) then it stands to reason that the player could dig down diagonally, return closer to the surface, and descend again only to find a zonbie at the bottom of the tunnel.

 

Is that correct?

 

If not then I accept I have misunderstood something and you can enlighten me.

 

If it is then that is an absolutely bad idea, and is little more than a planned magic spawn which would turn a previous bug into a current feature.

 

Immersion breaking and just downright annoying. I dont mind being killed by zombies for a lack of skill, but to be done in in a one way tunnel of which only you are in, near the surface seeing nothing could get inside, only to be met with a magically spawned zombie when you go back down? No thanks.

 

Btw I literally just woke up and im using my mobile, expect some errors and corrections.

 

Edit: I dont see much difference between zombies digging down to you or spawning at or around your level and digging their way through to you.

 

The second choice is even worse than the ability to dig down since these just spawn in destroying enough blocks to start swinging giving you little time to do much. In fact if that happens theres literally nothing you could do until either it digs to you or you dig to it and kill it.

 

And thats what I mean by immersion breaking.

 

I dont mind a challenge but thats just taking the piss. And like I said I just hope if this concept ever does make it that it is an option able to be turned off by the player.

 

Just consider all your players and not just the majority, for id wager that if things were reversed there would be some features that would upset the majority.

 

Everyone has their own playstyle and its unfair to take that away from them.

 

I agree with ZombieToad to a point. I think just randomly spawning zombies near your underground base and breaking into one of your tunnels right behind you as you came near would be bad and practically like zombies spawning right behind you on the surface.

 

However I think that for an event like Blood Moon where it would simulate zombies clawing their way out of the earth around you because they were agitated by the blood moon it would be pretty awesome and scary and that is what I want in this game. I want to be sitting in my bunker on blood moon and then start hearing zombies all around me starting to wake up and breaking into tunnels and moving towards me. If we know things like that will happen on the blood moon then we can prepare for it.

 

I also like the idea that if you are actively digging there will be blocks that will trigger a spawn nearby.

 

So random environmental zombies that spawn just because? I agree with ZT. But if you are actively digging or for an event like blood moon that would cause zombies to claw their way out of the earth around you then yes yes yes!!!

[Darkfoxx117]

AS i read it kinya said that only while actively digging so there wouldn't be zombies spawning once you had finished digging and placed a block?

 

Edit: yep that's what i thought and agree with i'm not for random spawning just while actively digging.

[Tin]

Making no place safe whatsoever will be the end of this game for me.

 

If being killed and having your base demolished in every single thinkable circumstance is where this game is headed, ill be out early.

 

Zombies digging to bedrock? Thats absurdity just a little too far. Or spawning there with literally no way in? Come on.

 

Punching (yes with hands of rotten flesh and bone) through steel reinforced set concrete is already ridiculous.

 

If digging digging zombies are a thing then I will say one thing, in order to at lesst save some of the community id seriously hope its an option that would be part if a hardcore no escape mode and able to be turned off.

 

You cant live underground without having to surface anyway, and you cant grow crops there, you need to leave to loot and those killing zombied need to surface to fight. Why cant those restrictions be enough.

 

Just like its been said by those of limited diplomatic ability, if you dont like underground bases then dont make them.

 

I have a sneaking suspicion that its these people that play multiplayer and get so annoyed that they cant find underground bases that they think noone should have safe refuge below ground.

 

I 'liked' to build underground, still would if it provided a challenge, but then I had half the game ripped away from me when they took that mechanic out and rightly so at the time. They took it out when Nav was the only "play field" we had and it was way smaller than it is now.

We have more than enough room in both Nav and RWG to accommodate this again. 'If' for whatever reason your fort gets compromised you have many times the play area to relocate for your oopsies! of not fortifying it right the first, second, third, forth times etc,.

 

This was never about ppl not liking underground forts or not, or those that mainly built underground (at least for me). It was about applying a challenge for ALL aspects of play that the game provides and that includes the ability to make an underground facility.

 

You can live underground pretty much indefinitely.

You can build underground farms, you can make an indefinite water source. Glad you haven't found out how to do so since it's something you can strive to do now. I won't say how because that's half the fun of finding it out but just know you can!

 

Have TFP put in an option to disable them, sure, fine with me! I still want the mechanic in the game either way. So the flip side is why can't I, who want underground threats, have them? why should I take the back seat? why should I need to mod all this in? Why do you all (in general) keep glossing over that more options and settings will come? or how about: It's easier to take it out then put it in?

The same with modding. Its easier to mod stuff out than add it in.. especially a new mechanic.

 

I don't speak for anyone but myself and this isn't a rant at you. I just want to let you know my side of the discussion.

[KanedaSyndrome]

Increased difficulty on the surface is why (i thought) people made underground bases?

 

But living on the surface is a piece of cake if you have a base and a fight pit about 30 metres away, nobody is forcing people to fight a horde in their mansion base just take it outside

 

Well, I think people should be allowed to be safe underground, so they can actually leave their base for weeklong expeditions without coming home to a base wrecked by screamers. That's my main reason for building underground, so I can leave the base for more than 10 minutes to go do the fun stuff, raiding cities.

[Doombringer101]

Well, I think people should be allowed to be safe underground, so they can actually leave their base for weeklong expeditions without coming home to a base wrecked by screamers. That's my main reason for building underground, so I can leave the base for more than 10 minutes to go do the fun stuff, raiding cities.

 

Zombies won't even appear near your base if you are not in the chunk making it active.

[Andre7714]

Unrealistic tunnels... Well, the player doesn't have to haul all the earth away when s/he mines out a tunnel. Do you want the earth to fill in behind the player, too? Or do you only want the game to be more realistic when it makes things easier?

Well , I had an idea and I wanted to share it , if devs start to talk about it an hour later , I think I can live with one complaining, I know that it is also unrealistic to have enough concrete blocks in your inventory to build a five story house , but in the game you can.So if I choose one word wrong , please forgive me , at least I gave another idea on how to implement digging zombies without all the Swiss cheese tunnels

[Jackelmyer]

Increased difficulty on the surface is why (i thought) people made underground bases?

 

But living on the surface is a piece of cake if you have a base and a fight pit about 30 metres away, nobody is forcing people to fight a horde in their mansion base just take it outside

 

I don't think the issue is the blood moon and your fighting base. It's the wandering hordes that will wreck you out of no where. Lot's of angels that they've made zombies come after you with.

 

Though I do agree that there needs to be more incentive to stay above ground where frankly, the game mechanics are simply easier to build.

 

You could always simply make blood moon rain. And then fill up all underground areas with water during the bloodmoon. Pretty sure people will want to get out of their underground bases during a bloodmoon pretty quick that way...

 

Jeepers... Is that really the answer? Just flood underground during blood moon? Is everyone happy at that point?

[spacepiggio]

I liked it when you did not have to have a mine for ore, you just looked for it in the sides of the Cliffs on the Surface. I played the game on the surface for a long time until you had to dig to get what you needed. The only reason I go to Bed Rock is that is where the Loot is supposed to be for trading, Gold, etc. I still dig to Bed Rock to mine & Forge but once I get what I need & it is back to the Surface.

I mean after all it is a Z Game & there are no Z's at Bed Rock

What I want to know is, is the new Cave System still in the works? I think a lot of players concerns about Bed Rock Abuse would be dealt with when it is implemented.

What really is annoying is whos business is to tell a player where they can build a base at. How one plays the game should be no concern of anyone else's as how they play the game. As long as they are not bothering anyone else's gameplay it should not concern anyone else,

It's my Game, I do what I want, I have been playing too much South Park today.

[wolfbain5]

zombies spawning in "air pockets" replacing the blocks they are in... eventually, that will become an SI nightmare. now random stone or dirt blocks that when broken, spawn a zed while you are mining, sorta like digging around and uncovering a random body of a miner or anyone, that would be more realistic, and shouldnt mess up SI. after all, the player was removing that block anyways. You disturb a buried body only to wake it up and it attacks you.

 

But not an instant pop up, the player still needs to move away to avoid ninja zombie kills. say 7 blocks away, took the zed that long to finish unearthing itself and get moving?

[ZombieToad]

How long has this taken Dark? How long have people been asking for this?

 

And it hasnt happened even until now. They are working on features and this is barely even an idea, they have a list of things for A17 that they wanna get done, they STILL havent fixed the A16 exp branch, so I can infer that it will take quite some time.

 

This has nothing to do with me having no knowledge of games or how to make them, but me having enough common sense and being able to follow trends and the actual information from Roland or the Devs on 'priority.'

 

It seems with the physics system, new vehicles, new pois (perhaps) that working on zombies digging which is as of right now nothing more than Kinyas suggestion to the other Pimps, that creating and implementing yet another mevhanic will take a long time as well as a big dev effort.

 

If it was so simple and easy and took only a short time, we may well have had it already.

 

Im right by your side when youre asking for a challenge, I completely support that and Im with you all the way. I just dont think that kind of solution is viable, or sensible, when there is so much to add/change above ground.

 

Also, this does sort of beg the question. What happens with air bases (on stilts). That zombies spawning on the player level thing would eventually translate to zombies landing on player made blocks if you were like 50 up in the air. Right?

[Tin]

*Appears out of nowhere with a towel around his waist, holding a rubber duckie*

 

Oh crap, not again. One of these days you guys are gonna catch me on the toilet.

 

Anyway,

Prime and I were thinking about having a special terrain block that would go active when a block beside it is destroyed. So when you're digging you might dig beside a zed spawn and wake it up, kinda like a sleeper.

 

The other idea we discussed was allowing them to spawn in terrain blocks closest to the player near the player height if lower than terrain height - 3, if the player is at terrain height - 2 or higher, spawn above ground. This would probably be best for blood moon hordes. This way if the player is underground they'll spawn underground nearby right at the edge where terrain meets air, inset by one block (basically destroy the two blocks they spawn in, then they can dig their way out). If above ground well, they'll just spawn normal. Then on horde nights, if you go underground, you'll just be having to fight zombies coming out of the ground from around you, losing the ability to attack from further away unless you have a huge underground area hollowed out.

 

So if we were to do it, I think this would technically work, maybe even include the first idea above as the "biome spawn" just to add a bit of anxiety to digging around a lot.

 

What if...

I line the walls, floor and ceiling with log spikes then another block?

 

What if you take that placement of zeds and make a block instead that you trigger that has an AOE and it releases a toxic gas so you need to use the gas mask? and slowly lowers the O2 like your drowning?

[The Batman]

I agree with ZombieToad to a point. I think just randomly spawning zombies near your underground base and breaking into one of your tunnels right behind you as you came near would be bad and practically like zombies spawning right behind you on the surface.

 

However I think that for an event like Blood Moon where it would simulate zombies clawing their way out of the earth around you because they were agitated by the blood moon it would be pretty awesome and scary and that is what I want in this game. I want to be sitting in my bunker on blood moon and then start hearing zombies all around me starting to wake up and breaking into tunnels and moving towards me. If we know things like that will happen on the blood moon then we can prepare for it.

 

I also like the idea that if you are actively digging there will be blocks that will trigger a spawn nearby.

 

So random environmental zombies that spawn just because? I agree with ZT. But if you are actively digging or for an event like blood moon that would cause zombies to claw their way out of the earth around you then yes yes yes!!!

 

Don't really like the magical zombie spawning idea underground, nor while digging tbh. I'd feel other threats would feel and fare much better below ground.

 

However, if this were to be implemented. People could be above ground --> Spawn horde. Then go below ground and still be safe?

There's too many ways to negate hordes, I don't really feel much for cancelling underground safety. And I don't think that should be the goal if you get what I mean.

 

- You can outrun them with beer / coffee

- You can swim throughout the night.

- Get on minibike, spawn horde -- > Goodbye

- Spike fields (to a degree cause dead zombie = new zombie)

- Terrain abuse (height differences)

- And my personal favorite --> Bubble heartstone ehh I mean Logout.

 

Let's add new environmental threats underground, while at the sametime it opens up a whole lot of new gameplay.

 

Or let the vault dwellers be. Fine with both of those solutions, as I firmly stand by the opinion that we should always keep the possibility to be 100% safe. Even if it means having to work really really really really (really) hard for it.

 

The dark knight,

 

 

Zombies won't even appear near your base if you are not in the chunk making it active.

 

But if they spawn while you are drinking tea, they will wreck a lot of the outer walls etc. Or if other players come near (MP games)

[ZombieToad]

snip .

 

I didnt know that you learn something everyday ^^

 

And dont worry I know its not a rant, and yeah I think we both agree (and others) that these should just be made as toggles.

 

That means everyone could be happy.

[Roland]

What if...

I line the walls, floor and ceiling with log spikes then another block?

 

What if you take that placement of zeds and make a block instead that you trigger that has an AOE and it releases a toxic gas so you need to use the gas mask? and slowly lowers the O2 like your drowning?

 

See? Now this is what I love. These are the sorts of discussions we used to have when the developers were still adding in zombie behaviors and something new would happen that presented a challenge. Players would discuss strategies and ideas to counter the new threats here in the forums and then it was fun to go into the game and try them out and possibly improve upon them.

 

People say that no matter what the devs do the players will outsmart and overcome so the devs shouldn't even try. I say they should do it because the outsmarting and adapting and overcoming is where a huge amount of fun exists.

 

Kinyajuu shared just one possible idea of what might happen and already we are talking about how underground base design might need to change in order to cope with the new threat. It's awesome.

 

Just think about how these Activator Blocks would change digging. Digging a vertical shaft would become a mighty risky choice....

[ZombieToad]

Zombies won't even appear near your base if you are not in the chunk making it active.

 

Really?

 

Me and a friend (as I posted not long ago) left our one forge running and went to a city nearby.

 

When we returned we found a screamer that had already dont some significant damage to the dirt at the foot of the raided dirt mound that the house was resting on.

 

That means if the screamer just spawned the damage was just spawned too?

 

Or we made a mistake?

[Jackelmyer]

What if...

I line the walls, floor and ceiling with log spikes then another block?

 

What if you take that placement of zeds and make a block instead that you trigger that has an AOE and it releases a toxic gas so you need to use the gas mask? and slowly lowers the O2 like your drowning?

 

Oh I kinda like this. On a small chance... Hitting one of these blocks ignites all same types of blocks and block hit.

 

Nitrate releases gas which rapidly reduces health in a 15-20 block radius. Start taking damage without an O2 tank or something.

 

Coal releases gas that slowly ticks down Wellness. O2 tank to counter as well.

 

Shale ignites when hit and has a 5 second time before it blows up. Radius 30. Zero block damage on blast. Run yer ass off.

 

That seems a bit more valid and immersive at making mining itself more hazardous.

[chaosterone]

Making no place safe whatsoever will be the end of this game for me.

 

If being killed and having your base demolished in every single thinkable circumstance is where this game is headed, ill be out early.

 

....snip.....

 

Kinyajuu and Prime,

 

Can you make it so our bases get demolished in every thinkable circumstance, and release it in 16.4 tomorrow? You will both become Ultra Super Heroes, and I''ll send you each a case of virtual beer!

[Doombringer101]

Really?

 

Me and a friend (as I posted not long ago) left our one forge running and went to a city nearby.

 

When we returned we found a screamer that had already dont some significant damage to the dirt at the foot of the raided dirt mound that the house was resting on.

 

That means if the screamer just spawned the damage was just spawned too?

 

Or we made a mistake?

 

She either spawned before you left or as you entered the chunk on your return trip.

[ZombieToad]

I think you misunderstood. The only time zombies would just spawn would be when you're digging, eg; you happen to dig a tunnel beside a block or position marked as a buried dead body. That's when it would spawn.

 

After you have dug the tunnel, the only time they would dig out would be during a blood moon based on your game stage. We wouldn't want them murdering everyone like crazy but for someone that's been a hermit for a while and gets a high gamestage, the game would start adjusting for their tactics by spawning blood moon hordes underground and having them dig out. If multiple players and one is above ground, split up the spawns for above and below ground.

 

This may even be regulated by a specific zombie type to keep things fair until very very high game stages. Eg; only spawning crawler types at first, then up it as the game stage goes up.

 

Since players in general don't want their worlds becoming swiss cheese but still want a threat when playing cave dweller this was what was thought up as a decent interim even if a bit gamey. Again just an idea, not set in stone for sure.

 

Hey Kin,

 

After some discussion I think I get it.

 

And its just a little too much, and it would annoy the crap out of some players, especially me.

 

Building underground takes a lot longer to dig out and organise if you want a decent base (depending on the resources that you use) since you need a functional bench and cement mixer to get the tools and blocks u need to get yourself carved out and concretized'

 

I am absolutely in agreement with The Dark Knight,there should be one last refuge that we can be safe in.

 

If everywhere you build is just going to be wrecked thats a turn off, honestly, for me as a player. And I know my friend doesnt like to fight blood moons though she is ok with wanderers, so she would quit.

 

Its ok for you guys since once a game is sold youve made your money, but its not good for the game losing players and giving bad rep.

 

Like I said I dont mind anything being added that conflicts with the players preferred playstyle, just so long as the feature has a toggle so those who dislike it can disable it.

 

That would be super amazing

 

Just like Spacepiggio said, its no ones business to tell others how to play, especially in pvp worlds, underground lets you survive players and zombies and thats what its about. Tactics and fun.

 

Edit: The natural underground hazards seemingly requiring mining suits and oxygen tanks for the initial dig - thats friggin amazing.

 

A great natural hazard to overcome before you can proceed with your bunker, thats more like it!

 

Edit 2: What about the spawning of an entity that would be more believable. Mutant rats, twice the size of the rabbit, those would add nice threats until your blocks were placed

[Tin]

Oh I kinda like this. On a small chance... Hitting one of these blocks ignites all same types of blocks and block hit.

 

Nitrate releases gas which rapidly reduces health in a 15-20 block radius. Start taking damage without an O2 tank or something.

 

Coal releases gas that slowly ticks down Wellness. O2 tank to counter as well.

 

Shale ignites when hit and has a 5 second time before it blows up. Radius 30. Zero block damage on blast. Run yer ass off.

 

That seems a bit more valid and immersive at making mining itself more hazardous.

 

I like it! Make it happen! .... err Kin make it happen! xD

 

That's a neat idea.

 

Thanks!

[Aurelius]

What if...

I line the walls, floor and ceiling with log spikes then another block?

 

What if you take that placement of zeds and make a block instead that you trigger that has an AOE and it releases a toxic gas so you need to use the gas mask? and slowly lowers the O2 like your drowning?

 

Or, surface zombies excrete a toxic gas which seeps down through the earth. No matter where the player goes, if the zombies are above them the gas will eventually reach down and choke off the oxygen unless the player does something to counteract it. Gas mask? Or, more preferable to TFP probably, go up and kill the zombies...

 

In theory TFP could use the same logic for water for flow and drowning purposes, with some *ahem* minor changes...

 

-A

[Jackelmyer]

I think you misunderstood. The only time zombies would just spawn would be when you're digging, eg; you happen to dig a tunnel beside a block or position marked as a buried dead body. That's when it would spawn.

 

After you have dug the tunnel, the only time they would dig out would be during a blood moon based on your game stage. We wouldn't want them murdering everyone like crazy but for someone that's been a hermit for a while and gets a high gamestage, the game would start adjusting for their tactics by spawning blood moon hordes underground and having them dig out. If multiple players and one is above ground, split up the spawns for above and below ground.

 

This may even be regulated by a specific zombie type to keep things fair until very very high game stages. Eg; only spawning crawler types at first, then up it as the game stage goes up.

 

Since players in general don't want their worlds becoming swiss cheese but still want a threat when playing cave dweller this was what was thought up as a decent interim even if a bit gamey. Again just an idea, not set in stone for sure.

 

 

Digging zombies are just going to be problematic. I kinda wish that the Perln Cave system would turn into the Perln Cavern system. And spawn cavern's like POI's underground. Or simply, make some Cavern POI's. And simply don't spawn in wandering hordes. Just make it so that sometimes, we accidentally bust into one of these POI's underground and oh... crap... Zombies. The perk here is that you're dealing with zombies that aren't actively trying to move towards you digging through everything and wrecking your world.

 

Having underground POI's, laid just like current POI's. Making sure no POI overlapping happens so structural integrity isn't impacted. Like... Rural spawns. We players tunnel all over when we're underground dwellers. Maybe adding in some giant radiated bugs underground in these areas would work well too. Would be even cooler if there was an under ground city mechanic that built out really awesome caverns. Might be a bit harder and take some imagination. But if we want enemies underground, I think the best approach is POI caverns.

 

Think we had a geologist around here who could speak to the possibility of such things. Pretty sure things like limestone deposits at least get eroded by ground water and form caverns that ultimately turn into sink holes if shallow enough.

 

-- Little Edit --

 

Forgot to mention that to help immersion and bring in enemies, maybe add a few giant bug animal types to the game, cave creatures. Those could be the starting point of an underground engagement system.

[Tin]

See? Now this is what I love. These are the sorts of discussions we used to have when the developers were still adding in zombie behaviors and something new would happen that presented a challenge. Players would discuss strategies and ideas to counter the new threats here in the forums and then it was fun to go into the game and try them out and possibly improve upon them.

 

People say that no matter what the devs do the players will outsmart and overcome so the devs shouldn't even try. I say they should do it because the outsmarting and adapting and overcoming is where a huge amount of fun exists.

 

Kinyajuu shared just one possible idea of what might happen and already we are talking about how underground base design might need to change in order to cope with the new threat. It's awesome.

 

Just think about how these Activator Blocks would change digging. Digging a vertical shaft would become a mighty risky choice....

 

Yup! Makes for some cool talk

[ZombieToad]

Or, surface zombies excrete a toxic gas which seeps down through the earth. No matter where the player goes, if the zombies are above them the gas will eventually reach down and choke off the oxygen unless the player does something to counteract it. Gas mask? Or, more preferable to TFP probably, go up and kill the zombies...

 

In theory TFP could use the same logic for water for flow and drowning purposes, with some *ahem* minor changes...

 

-A

 

That *might* be a little too much.

 

Unless you can disable it xD

 

But actually the toxic smog would be a very nice idea as a post death consequence of killing those fat cops.

[Riv]

Hey Kinyajuu,

 

I really like your idea for underground spawns.

 

It is very much like my post in this thread 3 weeks ago.

 

"Wishlist

1) New cave system - has random airpockets scattered underground, each with a coffin and a sleeper zombie (this zombie can dig and reacts to nearby sound and digs towards it), sleeper zombie scales with gamestage."