"The PvP Update"

[7daysguy]

So a central claim block is going to recompute the health of the claimed area after every bullet hit/tool swing?

 

Don't you think that will be resource intensive?

 

The game already calculates the health of each individual block after every bullet hit and tool swing. The heavy lifting is already done. All that's needed is a (sum) function to compare the before health with the current health. It doesn't even have to be realtime. I'm not a programmer but I don't see why it couldn't work.

[Poojam]

The game already calculates the health of each individual block after every bullet hit and tool swing. The heavy lifting is already done. All that's needed is a (sum) function to compare the before health with the current health. It doesn't even have to be realtime. I'm not a programmer but I don't see why it couldn't work.

 

I'm not one either. But I am an engineer. And your last statement is pretty lol-worthy.

[Roland]

"Raidees" is my new favorite word. Thanks Poojam

 

"Watch out someone rekt Phil's base and he's all butt hurt over it. He's such a raidee..."

[Guppycur]

Arena's are definitely where it's at in terms of fun... to be able to specify areas for PvP in a PvE world would also be great... sub-biomes, copies of the biomes, I don't know or care, but it would be FUN to enter an arena and either toggle PvP on/off for THAT PERSON or have it on/off when they're in the arena. Obviously someone who isn't toggled PvP on cannot hurt someone who is.

 

As a whole, the only way I see 7days integrating nicely with a true PvP environment is to either increase the hell out of the gameplay mechanics to it at least feels like PvP, or make death meaningful.

 

Just my 2cents. Well, I'm up to at least a dime now, since I keep basically saying the same thing.

[Gazz]

This thread was billed as a "PVP Mode" and ideas were pitched by you and Gazz to achieve those ends. What the "mode" actually meant in terms of server execution was not really communicated.

Well, that's because it's more about exploring ideas and concepts. =)

 

A separate PVP mode (pretty much what we have now) can be adjusted more easily but means developing 2 branches which is always extra work.

PVE + PVP on the same server with the ruleset to make that possible is the other option. Call it soft PVP or training wheels - but it would be a way for hardcore PVE players to dabble in PVP because otherwise you really have no chance on getting them interested in PVP because what is efficient play for some is griefing and douchebaggery in their eyes.

 

IMO the server browser needs to be a better way to display a server description. Right now you have space for like 20 words to do that.

[Guppycur]

A lot of the reason why these suggestions about fixing PVP are met with skepticism is MM's many times stated mentality of "it doesn't do that on vanilla settings"... it's disheartening because he comes off as if the current game is good enough, and any problems you have with the current setup aren't important if you're changing options, much less modding.

 

I mean, do y'all even realize the lcb doesn't work properly? And that's not even a mod!

 

That mentality has been extended to PvP quite a large number of times, too. "This is meant to be an 8 player co-op game", blah blah blah.

 

When take something as simple as say, "if you have too many recipes, because all recipes load in all workstations you'll get serious lag" and he responds with "oh well, play vanilla", he's NOT saying "we're in alpha right now and we'll work on that later", he's saying "suck it up, we aren't worried about the future."

 

So I'm /hopeful/ that these things will eventually be addressed, but MM's method of communicating make people think otherwise.

 

/hoping he explained the skepticism well enough

[TehRoach]

His opinion on what motivates him is equally as valid as yours, fact is that the current options allow for both of you to have fun, restricting his playstyle to YOUR wants would be as dumb as restricting your playstyle to what HE wants.

Sorry!

but I think there has been a miss communication between what I thought I wrote and how you understood it.

 

These questions to PooJam were more for me to understand his actuall position on the subject.

To help engage in conversation and help either convince one another or atleast understand the others position.

 

 

 

This it is not the firt time you have has quickly dismissed and idea,

only to run around the bush and contradict yourself in response.

Extract from Page 2

There are only 2 types of games ... CoD or ... a level 1 player can quite easily kill a level 100 player, death has zero impact or penalty ...

... WoW ...

7DTD started off ... some level 1 could kill you with headshot from a crossbow quite easily and there was no wellness loss so dying had no penalty, pvp was therefore not very exciting because all you would lose was your crossbow/weapon and you would suffer no other penalties.

Correct me if I am wrong, but haven't you just stated that almost all AAA PvP games are "not very exciting"

 

As you state that PvP in early 7DtD was "not very exciting" because "you would suffer no other penalties" and a "level 1 could kill you with a headshot"

yet

CoD or BF a level 1 player can quite easily kill a level 100 player, death has zero impact or penalty.

 

or

 

If you are infact arguing that 7DtD's PvP was not very exciting when it followed a formular similar to AAA PvP games and I am arguing that I would preffer that 7DtD's PvP chose a different path than AAA PvP games, are we not infact agreeing on similar/same things?

 

So then why does that make my ideas "dumb" and "playstyle restrictive" while yours do not?

[Poojam]

A lot of the reason why these suggestions about fixing PVP are met with skepticism is MM's many times stated mentality of "it doesn't do that on vanilla settings"... it's disheartening because he comes off as if the current game is good enough, and any problems you have with the current setup aren't important if you're changing options, much less modding.

 

I mean, do y'all even realize the lcb doesn't work properly? And that's not even a mod!

 

That mentality has been extended to PvP quite a large number of times, too. "This is meant to be an 8 player co-op game", blah blah blah.

 

When take something as simple as say, "if you have too many recipes, because all recipes load in all workstations you'll get serious lag" and he responds with "oh well, play vanilla", he's NOT saying "we're in alpha right now and we'll work on that later", he's saying "suck it up, we aren't worried about the future."

 

So I'm /hopeful/ that these things will eventually be addressed, but MM's method of communicating make people think otherwise.

 

/hoping he explained the skepticism well enough

 

PVP has long been the whipping boy because every problem is magnified 10x in a competitive game environment. When there are problems, it is always the PVP'ers voicing the complaints first and loudest. I'm sure that's why Madmole had gotten so negative about it in the past.

[Poojam]

Yes and maybe, this is why I added the "restoring all/most stolen items" clause.

It wouldn't take much to keep a data base of who has stolen what from who or put caps on the potential size of re-embercements.

 

 

It is only meaningless if you make it meaningless.

 

 

 

Let me get this straight.

You don't actually find any reward from the loot itself?

The only Reward for you is the fact that you have weakened your opponent?

 

I don't know about you,

but for me the idea of being the best at something is because you are the best, not because you are able to keep all the good competition in a cage where they can not compete!

 

being the best should be about improving yourself above your peers. (forward progression)

not just reducing your peer to below your level. (backwards progression)

 

 

Sorry but this is a game, it simply is always going to be "little league".

 

A scoreboard is meaningless because it has no value. It's like that Drew Carey show from the 90's, "Whose line is it anyways?". The points don't matter. If points were all that mattered to me, I would be happy with CS Go because I would strive for a high-tier ranking and positive k/d at the end of my matches. The scoreboard that we already have doesn't really matter. You might look at it to gage whether you are going to trust someone that has 45 player kills, but other than that it's useless. The current system, where there things at stake for both parties involved in raiding or protecting your assets, matters. It matters because if I drink your milk shake, you don't have a milkshake anymore. It may have taken you hours to get that milkshake. But I took it by killing you and now it's mine! There is risk and reward. What you are proposing is eliminating the risk part of that equation, which cheapens the reward.

 

It depends on where I am in character progression and the server settings. If I'm low level, then I may get something of value. But if I'm high level and have an established base, it has very little value to me. I'm raiding for the purpose of taking it from my competition. If they aren't being raided, they are spending their time and resources working on raiding me. It is the survival of the fittest.

 

If the server is drop all, I won't turn down anything. It all has some value. If it's bag drop, the only thing that has value is mats. I will never lose my bar (weapons/armor/critical tools/fuel/kits etc). If it's belt drop, the only thing that has value are weapons. But this is to a smaller extent, because I just won't use those slots on my bar save for a weapon and a stack of med kits. If it's no drop, then I view that as the same as there being no point for half of the game. I can only raid people. And they can just store all their good stuff in their inventory, where I can never get it. What a miserably boring server setting imo.

 

That's fine that you are motivated at "being the best" at something. We just differ on what that is. IMO, points on a scoreboard don't make you the best when it's so easy to game those points by camping a noob's bedroll. I've seen players farm a hundred kills and conflate their scores. That would make them the best by your metric wouldn't it? I mean this in a good-natured trash talking PVP way, but if you are level 75 and I raided your base and killed you on a drop all server. Raided everything to the point where you have to go out and punch trees to get wood for making a stone axe again, I think we both know who is the best regardless of the scoreboard.

 

No i disagree on the little league. I normally play on a drop all server where griefing and base raiding are not only allowed, but encouraged. On good days, there are 25 other players competing on it. We're all angling to kill each other and take each other's stuff, eventually. We all spend dozens/hundreds of hours on some server builds. Any individual can lose a ton of work in obtaining resources/tools/weapons by being careless and losing it to your opponent. The adrenaline that gets pumping when you run into a stranger that is gunning for you, and you have 15000 stone in your bag, is quite high. When you die, it's rough. I get motivated to exact revenge. To get my stuff back and to take a piece of his while I'm at it. When I live, it's simply a thrill to have survived the encounter knowing there was something at stake. Getting the contents of their bag is a bonus.

 

Eliminating the risk from killing a player or a base raiding perspective (by restoring the owner's loot) would be what I call little league. And it would not be any fun whatsoever because the only one that had to pay an ante, was the one doing the raiding.

[7daysguy]

The scoreboard that we already have doesn't really matter. You might look at it to gage whether you are going to trust someone that has 45 player kills, but other than that it's useless.

 

Luckily the player kills on a scoreboard isn't used for any kind of competitive judgement, so I've never really seen people gaming it. But on that note you do bring up a good point, maybe there should be a "Raiding" score where it counts every 10,000 damage you do within a claimed zone? That would be a good measure of a player's performance and not something easily inflated.

 

Also the zombie kills adding to a score right now is useful even on a PvP server because it lets you see at a glance who's been active for a long time, who's likely to be a higher level with better gear etc. I wouldn't want to see that go away. Yes the player kills is somewhat useless but since it offers no reward it's still mostly accurate.

 

[edit] Yes I realize you can just see a players level on the scoreboard, but z kills is still nice to see.

Edited February 22, 2017 by 7daysguy (see edit history)

[Poojam]

Luckily the player kills on a scoreboard isn't used for any kind of competitive judgement, so I've never really seen people gaming it. But on that note you do bring up a good point, maybe there should be a "Raiding" score where it counts every 10,000 damage you do within a claimed zone? That would be a good measure of a player's performance and not something easily inflated.

 

Also the zombie kills adding to a score right now is useful even on a PvP server because it lets you see at a glance who's been active for a long time, who's likely to be a higher level with better gear etc. I wouldn't want to see that go away. Yes the player kills is somewhat useless but since it offers no reward it's still mostly accurate.

 

[edit] Yes I realize you can just see a players level on the scoreboard, but z kills is still nice to see.

 

I didn't do a good job of quoting his arguments and framing my responses. I'm not pro/against the scoreboard in it's current incarnation. I was just using it to support my argument that making my numbers bigger on it is not a reward to me.

[Roland]

I like stats and whether they are ultimately useful or not I would love a scoreboard that showed things like meters traveled, blocks destroyed, bullets/arrows fired, etc. Its just fun to see stuff like that for everyone.

[Guppycur]

bcm.guppycur.com

[bloom_meister]

Sorry!

but I think there has been a miss communication between what I thought I wrote and how you understood it.

 

These questions to PooJam were more for me to understand his actuall position on the subject.

To help engage in conversation and help either convince one another or atleast understand the others position.

 

 

 

This it is not the firt time you have has quickly dismissed and idea,

only to run around the bush and contradict yourself in response.

 

Correct me if I am wrong, but haven't you just stated that almost all AAA PvP games are "not very exciting"

 

As you state that PvP in early 7DtD was "not very exciting" because "you would suffer no other penalties" and a "level 1 could kill you with a headshot"

yet

CoD or BF a level 1 player can quite easily kill a level 100 player, death has zero impact or penalty.

 

or

 

If you are infact arguing that 7DtD's PvP was not very exciting when it followed a formular similar to AAA PvP games and I am arguing that I would preffer that 7DtD's PvP chose a different path than AAA PvP games, are we not infact agreeing on similar/same things?

 

So then why does that make my ideas "dumb" and "playstyle restrictive" while yours do not?

 

Your misquoting and misunderstanding make a reasoned response non viable, my post stated your viewpoint was as valid as anyones elses and apparently you took offense at that..................mindboggled....... believe what you will and i will do the same,

[TehRoach]

A scoreboard is meaningless because it has no value.

That is why I said

It is only meaningless if you make it meaningless.

Maybe I should have replaced the "you" with "devs" for claraty.

 

It's like that Drew Carey show from the 90's, "Whose line is it anyways?". The points don't matter.

In regards to the Drew Caery show this is absolutely correct, but that is because the Drew Carey crew are taking the piss out of game shows in the name of comedy.

In this example the score doesn't matter as the overiding aspect of comedy is the prime purpose.

 

However in every other game show and basically every sport the score board is a key factor.

In Sports, aids in setting the fixtures

ie

- minor leages teams play against other minor leages teams

- AAA teams play against other AAA teams

- major league play against other major league teams

- etc

and presents a way that the top teams from each league can advance to the next tier league.

(I would look at Soccer for the best representation of this)

 

The current system, where there things at stake for both parties involved in raiding or protecting your assets, matters. It matters because if I drink your milk shake, you don't have a milkshake anymore. It may have taken you hours to get that milkshake. But I took it by killing you and now it's mine! There is risk and reward. What you are proposing is eliminating the risk part of that equation, which cheapens the reward.

For me this is like saying when I was a kid and got my first remote control race car.

Yes I was king of the block, cause no one else had one!

 

but when the kid two doors down got his own, did I stop playing with mine?

No of course I did not!

In fact it was the most fun when pretty much every kid on the block finally got their own.

 

It depends on where I am in character progression and the server settings. If I'm low level, then I may get something of value.

This part would not change in my idea would not change, the rewards in this scenario would be the same as they are now.

 

and OK yes our definition of what "being the best" may differ greatly.

But if I'm high level and have an established base, it has very little value to me. I'm raiding for the purpose of taking it from my competition. If they aren't being raided, they are spending their time and resources working on raiding me.

But tell me how this is better than spawn camping a bedroll?

 

Because to me this sounds more like the survival of the least oppressed, rather than the survival of the fittest.

 

Eliminating the risk from killing a player or a base raiding perspective (by restoring the owner's loot) would be what I call little league. And it would not be any fun whatsoever because the only one that had to pay an ante, was the one doing the raiding.

The raider never pays an ante when the owners of the base are offline.

 

PS arn't you still just "little league" even if you can beat everybody in little league?

[TehRoach]

Your misquoting and misunderstanding make a reasoned response non viable, my post stated your viewpoint was as valid as anyones elses and apparently you took offense at that..................mindboggled....... believe what you will and i will do the same,

Isn't the point to come to an understanding?

 

Your "apparently" doesn't seam to be as apparent as you think!

 

You seam to get "mind boggled" very easily

so maybe it is too difficult for you to rectify the misunderstanding and explain yourself with out contradiction?

[TehRoach]

I like stats and whether they are ultimately useful or not I would love a scoreboard that showed things like meters traveled, blocks destroyed, bullets/arrows fired, etc. Its just fun to see stuff like that for everyone.

What is a computer game without Maths?

And what is maths, if you cant manipulate it to your likings with stats?

LOL

 

I think even if ultimately the score board did nothing, if it contained your above mentioned stats and a few(many) extras.

A scoreboard might help you find people that play more like yourself and to this end make your game more enjoyable.

ie "hardcore" players finding lots of other "hardcore" players to refine their "hardcoreyness" etc.

 

But I think the possibilities of implementing a database of this sort could have much more potential!

[Roland]

Number of times logged off at 21:50...

 

Oh the trash talking THAT stat would engender.

[Poojam]

That is why I said

 

Maybe I should have replaced the "you" with "devs" for claraty.

 

 

In regards to the Drew Caery show this is absolutely correct, but that is because the Drew Carey crew are taking the piss out of game shows in the name of comedy.

In this example the score doesn't matter as the overiding aspect of comedy is the prime purpose.

 

However in every other game show and basically every sport the score board is a key factor.

In Sports, aids in setting the fixtures

ie

- minor leages teams play against other minor leages teams

- AAA teams play against other AAA teams

- major league play against other major league teams

- etc

and presents a way that the top teams from each league can advance to the next tier league.

(I would look at Soccer for the best representation of this)

 

 

For me this is like saying when I was a kid and got my first remote control race car.

Yes I was king of the block, cause no one else had one!

 

but when the kid two doors down got his own, did I stop playing with mine?

No of course I did not!

In fact it was the most fun when pretty much every kid on the block finally got their own.

 

 

This part would not change in my idea would not change, the rewards in this scenario would be the same as they are now.

 

and OK yes our definition of what "being the best" may differ greatly.

 

But tell me how this is better than spawn camping a bedroll?

 

Because to me this sounds more like the survival of the least oppressed, rather than the survival of the fittest.

 

 

The raider never pays an ante when the owners of the base are offline.

 

PS arn't you still just "little league" even if you can beat everybody in little league?

 

 

Yea, score doesn't matter because there is an overiding aspect beyond digital numbers on a board. That aspect is to take other people's stuff. I hate sports for exactly the reason you have stated. What part of this game is meant to be a sport?

 

You're dissecting my milkshake example, comparing it to your personal opinion of a different aspect of your liking, and missing the point.

 

Yea, the rewards don't change for me for the first 3-4 days of low level gameplay. You're right! We finally agree on something. If you read on, you would find that your recommendation of restoring loot to the owners does change for the rest of our existence.

 

What are you going to get from someone on the 2nd kill of camping a bedroll that you can't get from raiding? Your inexperience is really starting to show here.

 

Yes, the raider does pay an ante. They don't know what they are going to find. Could be nothing. Could be a lot of usefull stuff. They spend resources on fuel, food/water, repair kits, tool durability (on big bases, I can chew up a purple auger completely) without knowing what they are going to get. They also expose themselves to 3rd parties that can come by and shoot them in the back and take their raiding gear. It's an ante. And to my point if you give people their stuff back when they log back in, then what is the point? You've just destroyed the notion of scarcity, encoded a great way to dupe, and damaged the competitive aspects of the game. This notion is the epitome of pvp-butt-hurt here.

[TehRoach]

Yea, score doesn't matter because there is an overiding aspect beyond digital numbers on a board. That aspect is to take other people's stuff. I hate sports for exactly the reason you have stated. What part of this game is meant to be a sport?

You mentioned earlier that the game shouldn't be "little league".

So how your game suppose to get out of the little leagues without attracting players that arn't little league?

 

 

Your inexperience is really starting to show here.

A statement without an explanation?

or

A sign that your argunment is light on substance?

You're dissecting my milkshake example, comparing it to your personal opinion of a different aspect of your liking, and missing the point.

But am I missing the point or are you yet to see the Tesseract?

 

What are you going to get from someone on the 2nd kill of camping a bedroll that you can't get from raiding?

IMHO Nothing!

But for the people that do it, they obviously get something.

Maybe because they know that if they let those new spawns progress to their level, they would probably lose in a fair fight.

So they use the games mechanics to the best of their abilities to maintain a stacked playingfield.

 

For my self I feel the same as this.

It was fun for a while but the thrill of the fight wore off when I knew we couldn't lose.

I tend to get board with no challange, as the rewards for winning are directly proportional to the chances of losing.

but some people need to win and preffer it when they have no chance of losing.

 

Yes, the raider does pay an ante.

You are probably right the raider does pay the ante.

but plaese excuse me because 7DtD isn't poker. LOL so to correct my self in the poker analagy.

 

While yes you are right the raiding player(s) do pay some ante.

However, in an offline raid the defending team is doing the equilivant of going all in before the cards are delt and then heading to the bathroom for the rest of the hand.

 

Hence the ante still heaverly favours the raiding party.

 

 

They don't know what they are going to find. Could be nothing. Could be a lot of usefull stuff. They spend resources on fuel, food/water, repair kits, tool durability (on big bases, I can chew up a purple auger completely) without knowing what they are going to get.

You could say the same for mining on some of the alpha builds, why should this game choice/risk be removed?

 

They also expose themselves to 3rd parties that can come by and shoot them in the back and take their raiding gear.

Getting shot in the back on a raid, LOL

Sounds to me like they are just not paying attention!

or

Are simply not use to competition during a raid!

 

if you give people their stuff back when they log back in, then what is the point?

I will reffer to the idea of positive competition vs negative competition, progression and the relative idea of strength.

 

Negative competition - the strong are considered strong in that for relative comparison their competition is weak. Energy is spent on oppressing the opposition and not focused on building strength, this results in a negative or backwards progression to the community.

 

Positive competition - All entities build on their strength, the base line continues to gain strength and the best are the best because they are the strongest.

 

You've just destroyed the notion of scarcity, encoded a great way to dupe

Firstly the idea of "rare" deminishes the closer you get to infinity.

As 7DtD's random gen is an attemp at the unlimited, I can't really see the difference.

 

Duping in a game like this is only bad if it is instant!

If viewed without the scales of time and effort the concept of duplication is fundamental to the programmed workings of the game.

Therefore as long as enough time and effort are involved the problems of duplication can be eliminated.

 

This notion is the epitome of pvp-butt-hurt here and damaged the competitive aspects of the game.

Does it?

or

Are you still only seeing the single point in the Tesseract?

[Guppycur]

This is why we can't have nice things.

 

...is this bickering even remotely productive to the conversation, or does it just further illustrate the negative stereotypes of pvp?

 

Speaking to no one in particular.

[razor1612]

What's PVP?

[Alexsanderr]

Whatever is decided for this "pvp mode" please make it a third mode. This would mean leave the current options of pve and pvp, and simply add this new mode with the changed rulesets. I am incredibly suprised this thread exists, no offense to anyone its just a sort of wake up call to me, as I, guess, am one of the few people who happen to think the current 7d2d pvp is the most well balanced and enjoyable pvp systems of any survival game, and in general quitw enjoyable.

[Poojam]

Whatever is decided for this "pvp mode" please make it a third mode. This would mean leave the current options of pve and pvp, and simply add this new mode with the changed rulesets. I am incredibly suprised this thread exists, no offense to anyone its just a sort of wake up call to me, as I, guess, am one of the few people who happen to think the current 7d2d pvp is the most well balanced and enjoyable pvp systems of any survival game, and in general quitw enjoyable.

 

Me too.

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

You mentioned earlier that the game shouldn't be "little league".

So how your game suppose to get out of the little leagues without attracting players that arn't little league?

 

or

Are you still only seeing the single point in the Tesseract?

 

 

I don't mean this in a derogatory way. But... are you on the spectrum? Maybe just a little?

[TehRoach]

I don't mean this in a derogatory way. But... are you on the spectrum? Maybe just a little?

Ok then just to be sure.

 

How about you describe this spectrum?