Too many zombies in walls and ceilings

[Krougal]

33 minutes ago, Ananais said:

 

This pretty much covers my feelings on the matter as far as the game, but I would be lieing if I said that it had not prompted me to conider where I would hide to surprise a survivor if we ever had an outbreak and I was bitten 😁

I am in the wrong business, so many people here need professional help...

[meilodasreh]

1 hour ago, warmer said:

However, without this stuff, the game completely loses any sense of danger for me. Once a game becomes to predictable I cease wanting to play.

[...] Without ambushes, I personally, wouldn't feel any POI is a challenge after 1000+ hrs of gameplay.

I completely agree, but this is exactly why I don't like this system. 

What you say may be correct for the first, maybe the second time you do a poi.

But after that you know exactly when and where you will be abushed, and from where they will come.

Sure there is some variety, sometimes one of the hiding spaces is unpopulated, but still, where's the thrill then?

Wouldn't it be better if the zombies would kind of have their own life within the volumes, so that you can only expect them to be there, but they are in different spots every time?

[AtomicUs5000]

If there was another zombie similar to the mutated zombie, except that it explodes acid everywhere upon impact or getting too close, I would be truly scared in tight POIs as opposed to these jump-scare tactics. Just the possibility of turning a corner and seeing one of these in my face would elevate the senses.

[Krougal]

1 hour ago, AtomicUs5000 said:

If there was another zombie similar to the mutated zombie, except that it explodes acid everywhere upon impact or getting too close, I would be truly scared in tight POIs as opposed to these jump-scare tactics. Just the possibility of turning a corner and seeing one of these in my face would elevate the senses.

Me, when I run right into the arms of a bloater in Dying Light (the original DL, not the @%$#ty sequel)

[AtomicUs5000]

2 hours ago, Krougal said:

Me, when I run right into the arms of a bloater in Dying Light (the original DL, not the @%$#ty sequel)

Me as well, but also into the suiciders in Dead Island (the original that you can get for $3 on sale, not the overpriced sequel that got sucked into a year long Epic store exclusivity contract)

[zztong]

7 hours ago, meilodasreh said:

Wouldn't it be better if the zombies would kind of have their own life within the volumes, so that you can only expect them to be there, but they are in different spots every time?

 

That kind of how it works. For example, a typical volume might be configured to select 4-5 sleepers from the 10-12 sleeper blocks that get placed within it. The game picks the 4-5 from the 10-12. Or, if an infestation, it picks 8-10 from the 10-12.

 

Trivia: If you configure the volume to place 4-5 sleepers but only give it 3 sleeper blocks, you get an Exception! Yay! (IIRC, IndexOutOfRangeException)

[warmer]

8 hours ago, meilodasreh said:

I completely agree, but this is exactly why I don't like this system. 

What you say may be correct for the first, maybe the second time you do a poi.

But after that you know exactly when and where you will be abushed, and from where they will come.

Sure there is some variety, sometimes one of the hiding spaces is unpopulated, but still, where's the thrill then?

Wouldn't it be better if the zombies would kind of have their own life within the volumes, so that you can only expect them to be there, but they are in different spots every time?

If you ever double dip on a quest, you'll notice some POI have several spawn variations. It's not drastic, but they do change locations, I do agree having a more dynamic system would be cool. Personally my ideal would be some sleepers and a few wandering in a poi. The closets make sense when you think about it. Where would you hide from zombies? lol they just all got infected before hand, that's why they are there.

I do like the blocks that break suddenly. Those still surprise me quite often because of how many POIs they add with large updates.

A good one to add would be one that crawls out from under the bed. We have a crawl animation, it would be cool if they could work that in for the skinny zombies. The big zombies would probably clip through really noticeably

[The_Great_Sephiroth]

That crawl animation is broken right now. I have opened a door and had a zed behind it. If I hit said zed with a hammer or whatever he falls down. Hit again and he switches into crawling which is FASTER than walking and starts hitting like crazy. A lumberjack crawling is equivalent to a lumberjack on cocaine.

[meilodasreh]

2 hours ago, zztong said:

That kind of how it works.

1 hour ago, warmer said:

If you ever double dip on a quest, you'll notice some POI have several spawn variations. It's not drastic, but they do change locations

This isn't real variation. You still know exactly where to look for them. No difference if there are some spaces empty when you check them all because you know.

 

 

1 hour ago, warmer said:

Personally my ideal would be some sleepers and a few wandering in a poi. The closets make sense when you think about it. Where would you hide from zombies? lol they just all got infected before hand, that's why they are there.

Yes this. As I said myself before, I'm perfectly fine having them come out of reasonable hiding spaces.

 

 

1 hour ago, warmer said:

I do like the blocks that break suddenly.

Me too...but not one-hit breaking solid walls that are perfectly camouflaged fake ones. If they come out of somewhere, it should also be somewhat comprehensible how they entered in the first place.

 

 

Another thing that came to my mind:

What about some of them sleepers would have a randomly appearing "fast-wakeup function"

It's kinda too convenient sometimes cause they always perform their little "boot up" animation when they stand up and shake their head a little,

giving you enough time to properly place a headshot. 

 

[Krougal]

2 hours ago, The_Great_Sephiroth said:

That crawl animation is broken right now. I have opened a door and had a zed behind it. If I hit said zed with a hammer or whatever he falls down. Hit again and he switches into crawling which is FASTER than walking and starts hitting like crazy. A lumberjack crawling is equivalent to a lumberjack on cocaine.

Yeah, it's pretty awful!

[Kyoji]

13 hours ago, warmer said:

I can understand the lack of realism, or "cheese" when they pop out of walls/closets. However, without this stuff, the game completely loses any sense of danger for me. Once a game becomes to predictable I cease wanting to play.

 

Everytime I barely make it out of a situation with single digit HP I think "this is why I keep playing" that rush is what I aim for. Without ambushes, I personally, wouldn't feel any POI is a challenge after 1000+ hrs of gameplay.

There are ways to increase difficulty without adding such mechanics of zombies spawning on triggers. It's immersion breaking to see the zombies spawn right before your eyes and it's not much more difficult to force trigger zombie spawns once you know the mechanic. It also ruins much of the luster behind an entire perk tree as many new POIs abuse the trigger mechanic making them impossible to utilize stealth.

 

Also, stealth wouldn't be OP. Stealth is very slow and it's simply faster to smash your way through. Plus many zombies are hidden behind actual objects which makes them harder to get to and finish a POI in a reasonable amount of time. It's a tradeoff of speed vs safety and if you are too slow then horde night will give you issues.

 

I imagine some of this could be fixed with their proposed new system allowing some zombies to "roam" within the POI which hopefully would reduce the number of trigger occurances and even sleeper zombies to a minumum. It makes far more sense and is more difficult to have zombies patrol an area than to have them lay on the ground or spawn in front of your eyes. 

 

Trigger zombies I think would be best if the focused on spawning them off camera (such as behind you a ways as in some POIs)

[warmer]

7 hours ago, Kyoji said:

There are ways to increase difficulty without adding such mechanics of zombies spawning on triggers. It's immersion breaking to see the zombies spawn right before your eyes and it's not much more difficult to force trigger zombie spawns once you know the mechanic. It also ruins much of the luster behind an entire perk tree as many new POIs abuse the trigger mechanic making them impossible to utilize stealth.

I use stealth and have never felt it was ruined by this because you can't stealth your scent. This is a fundamental aspect of how all creatures identify prey in the when they can't see them.

 

That aside, stealth with immunity to be detected would completely ruin this game in terms of difficulty. It's really easy to make your way through a POI without triggering a single sleeper, all without a single point in stealth if you take your time. Without ambushes, my same point remains. All the difficulty is sucked out of it.

 

For me cranking up the HP/lessing damage down doesn't increase difficulty, it just makes things bullet sponges which I can't stand in games. It's not harder, it's annoying. That is just a lack of creativity in enemy/gameplay balance. 

 

The hardest part of this game has always been time management. How you spend your time is the most difficult choice when you play solo and that is me 95% of the time.

Edited August 17, 2023 by warmer (see edit history)

[Krougal]

28 minutes ago, warmer said:

I use stealth and have never felt it was ruined by this because you can't stealth your scent. This is a fundamental aspect of how all creatures identify prey in the when they can't see them.

 

That aside, stealth with immunity to be detected would completely ruin this game in terms of difficulty. It's really easy to make your way through a POI without triggering a single sleeper, all without a single point in stealth if you take your time. Without ambushes, my same point remains. All the difficulty is sucked out of it.

 

For me cranking up the HP/lessing damage down doesn't increase difficulty, it just makes things bullet sponges which I can't stand in games. It's not harder, it's annoying. That is just a lack of creativity in enemy/gameplay balance. 

 

The hardest part of this game has always been time management. How you spend your time is the most difficult choice when you play solo and that is me 95% of the time.

Good points.

 

I feel the same about bullet sponges.

 

When you consider this basic truth, there is a large opportunity cost to stealth (granted on nightmare difficulty it is less than on nomad because speed of killing) so no matter how good it is, one could argue that it still is not OP. Although there is the fact that stealth is useless on horde night, I ultimately gave it up because it takes twice as long to clear a POI and my time management skills suck already TBH.

 

Stealth is still very broken.

Edited August 17, 2023 by Krougal (see edit history)

[Melange]

1 hour ago, warmer said:

The hardest part of this game has always been time management. How you spend your time is the most difficult choice when you play solo

I agree here. I also play mostly solo, and find that no matter my best intentions, there's always some item or resource that I find myself lacking (or simply have too much of). Okay, fall back and harvest/craft and then go out looting or questing again. Oh, and check the clothing/armor/melee/guns/tools/parts/etc storage crates before you go out because they are starting to overflow....sell or scrap or craft more crates for the excess. Then rearrange the storage so my hoarded items are in 'logical' order. By no means a complaint, it just takes time. It takes time away from glorious looting, the lost time of questing to gain (hopefully) good rewards and just the plain fun of exploring.  New POI? Yes! Dastardly hidden zombies? Assured. But I do feel TFP has tried to make the experience engaging and wants us to stay with a play through, rather than just restart and see what RNG throws on the table this time around.

 

That said, I must admit that I'm still on A20 in the Undead Legacy mod. Because well, I haven't quite embraced the non-jar dew collector concept, and I have way too many hours invested in this session. 

 

However, your point still stands. Time and inventory management is an integral part of the game. And the sooner a player grasps the concept, the smoother (portions of) the game becomes.

Edited August 17, 2023 by Melange (see edit history)

[The_Great_Sephiroth]

I also agree with time management. It's why I made the modlet that allows for up to six hour days. Seems like zeds can take more rounds now and with the default (one hour?) days I just don't have enough time. It's like playing Age of Empires 3 where you're constantly scrambling (a reason I stick to AoE2 among others) and I don't enjoy that, because one wrong move and it's all over. I prefer two hours of daylight and an hour of night right now. Makes for long horde nights which is fun, but it gives me enough time to move at a steady pace and setup basic defenses by the first one.

 

Also, while speaking about difficulty, what EXACTLY do the difficulty settings change the game?

[warmer]

17 minutes ago, The_Great_Sephiroth said:

Also, while speaking about difficulty, what EXACTLY do the difficulty settings change the game?

It just affects damage done to player and done to zombies as a percentage of the default.

 

I believe easiest is 50% damage to player and 200% to Zeds and hardest is reversed 200% to player and 50% to zeds

[Kyoji]

2 hours ago, warmer said:

I use stealth and have never felt it was ruined by this because you can't stealth your scent. This is a fundamental aspect of how all creatures identify prey in the when they can't see them.

 

That aside, stealth with immunity to be detected would completely ruin this game in terms of difficulty. It's really easy to make your way through a POI without triggering a single sleeper, all without a single point in stealth if you take your time. Without ambushes, my same point remains. All the difficulty is sucked out of it.

 

For me cranking up the HP/lessing damage down doesn't increase difficulty, it just makes things bullet sponges which I can't stand in games. It's not harder, it's annoying. That is just a lack of creativity in enemy/gameplay balance. 

 

The hardest part of this game has always been time management. How you spend your time is the most difficult choice when you play solo and that is me 95% of the time.

It's not ruined, but it does perform noticeably worse than the other paths. Abusing triggers feels like a temporary solution to the problem behind difficulty.

 

I would argue to the contrary that require two power swings per zombie isn't a sponging, but common sense. It's the reason why the early game feels much more challenging even with irradiated and ferals later in the game. Once you are loaded with your weapons zombies become largely irrelevant unless you don't understand basic herding mechanics and don't lead them to chokepoints.

 

Me running in triggering a spawn then leading the zombies to the nearest chokepoint and blasting them with a shotgun, machine gun or even with a strong melee weapon after you thin the herd. It's more frustrating and immersion breaking to have zombies spawn right in front of you. If stealth is the reason behind trigger spawns then I would still argue that stealth is far inferior to traditional setups due to what you eluded to yourself, time. Stealth takes far more time to clear a POI and requires knowledge of the POI to a degree. I am not suggesting not make adjustments but, I don't think stealth is OP at all due to the requirements needed to perform well. It's similar to drone builds in that way. Drone builds can shred through zombies when done right but requires knowledge and foresight to setup properly and as such is largely ignored by many.

 

If you don't like larger HP pools and I don't like over-use of triggers then there are still ways to offset the balance end-game such as bandits. Being hit at range would make the game infinitely harder which is why people hate cops so much. I know the pathing would suck but having crawler zombies be able to utilize walls and ceilings would make the game more challenging as well as maybe giving irratiated zombies some radiation poisoning effects when they do the wasteland radiation changes.

 

I think we both agree we want a tougher game, but it's how they go about it which is important.

 

 

 

[ElCabong]

This forces me to avoid doing any infested mission until I have a 9 mm or an SMG because I'm faced with many high level zombies in a very narrow a place where I don't have much room to maneuver.

 

It's kind of ridiculous, I know the trap is there so i run in, set it off, then run back out and shoot them as they come to the door.

 

then fall back and reload and shoot some more.

[Krougal]

45 minutes ago, ElCabong said:

This forces me to avoid doing any infested mission until I have a 9 mm or an SMG because I'm faced with many high level zombies in a very narrow a place where I don't have much room to maneuver.

 

It's kind of ridiculous, I know the trap is there so i run in, set it off, then run back out and shoot them as they come to the door.

 

then fall back and reload and shoot some more.

I haven't really noticed the infestations being any more difficult than the base POI they are in.

Since I frequently double-dip, I can tell you there don't seem to be any extra zeds. Maybe there should be and it is broken. Maybe it will get fixed next patch or so, but in the meantime It's a no-brainer, if an infested mission is available, take it over any others.

 

Also remember it is like doing a 1 tier higher mission at the lower difficulty, but getting extra loot and xp.

It will also take like half the time (especially at T5) than doing a normal POI for that level.

 

Edited August 17, 2023 by Krougal (see edit history)

[The_Great_Sephiroth]

2 hours ago, warmer said:

It just affects damage done to player and done to zombies as a percentage of the default.

 

I believe easiest is 50% damage to player and 200% to Zeds and hardest is reversed 200% to player and 50% to zeds

No change to experience though? See I am used to higher difficulties rewarding more exp. I assumed the zeds would be harder, but why do that if it's the same exp?

[zztong]

4 hours ago, Krougal said:

Although there is the fact that stealth is useless on horde night

 

I get what you're saying, and I get that you're weighting the value of skills to your own goals and desires. My calculus is different. I have lots of skills that are worthless on horde night. I don't avoid farming and cooking because I can't do them on horde night. I don't get a lot out of my melee weapons on horde night but I need them at other times. I'm not making or driving vehicles during a horde night, but I'm going to want a motorcycle or a 4x4.

 

Stealth is an important tool for my POI-raiding toolbox and sometimes an interesting puzzle that is different than "rock-n-roll with a machine gun" and certainly more than "crouch-and-go" stealth. Arranging the circumstances where I can shake triggered zombies is still a technique I'm working to improve.

[Krougal]

2 hours ago, zztong said:

 

I get what you're saying, and I get that you're weighting the value of skills to your own goals and desires. My calculus is different. I have lots of skills that are worthless on horde night. I don't avoid farming and cooking because I can't do them on horde night. I don't get a lot out of my melee weapons on horde night but I need them at other times. I'm not making or driving vehicles during a horde night, but I'm going to want a motorcycle or a 4x4.

 

Stealth is an important tool for my POI-raiding toolbox and sometimes an interesting puzzle that is different than "rock-n-roll with a machine gun" and certainly more than "crouch-and-go" stealth. Arranging the circumstances where I can shake triggered zombies is still a technique I'm working to improve.

Well, I specified on "horde night", are you disputing that? It isn't my opinion or my goals and desires, it is a simple fact of the game.

The rest of what you said is perfectly valid if that is your play style, but it has nothing to do with my statement and I stand behind it.

[Kyoji]

The original concept was that zombies spawning inside walls and triggers being less immersive. I agree with that sentiment. The reason people are defending it is because they think it would make stealth OP.

 

I think that there are a few things to consider when coming to that conclusion.

 

#1) What is the relative worth of Agility over other paths such as Fortitue, Perception, Strength, etc

#2) In what ways would it be OP and if so how would one fix it

 

The first question is relativistic, however, I think that many would agree that the agility tree isn't a bad tree with Parkour being good and from the shadows and hidden strike being your bread and butter. Archery isn't bad for general POI clearing and a silenced pistol can be helpful as well and the SMG offers some well needed faster firing for those oh crap situations. Knives are weak due to bleed being generally weak. Light armor isn't bad as you have an armor path built into Agility, however, you will need the Ghille suit to perfect stealth regardless.

 

Considering all of that I would still suggest that Strength + Fortitude makes the best combination of perk paths out of all of them and they mesh very well together as compared to Agility and Fortitude or Agility and Strength or Agility and Perception, etc. But we can't say it's a bad path either since as a single path it covers almost entirely what you would want to be doing in the game comnbat-wise with armor options and two decent weapon paths.

 

The second question is also subjective, but we can look at a few things that combine to make the skillset useful. For starters the way in which zombies detect the player. Stealth is kinda hard to balance as it's a zero sum game. You are either stealthed or your not. The zombies can see you and react or they can't. If the zombies do not see you when crouched and moving at full speed as you cull the herd then that is what makes the path OP as you are nearly immune to danger. If the zombies do see you then archery and pistols/SMG as a path are generally worse in dealing with larger hordes or faster zombies as found in end-game POIs.

 

To balance I would reduce movement speed bonuses across the board slightly, being much less vulnerable to danger should come with a larger time to clear offset which makes sense. If you are taking your time to not get hit then it should logically take longer to clear POIs and progress in the game. It's a balanced tradeoff since time is valuable in this game to a large degree. I would also re-work sight values. I don't mind zombies not hearing you or smelling you in stealth but if you turn a corner and one is standing in front of you it should activate the zombie. Even with no points in stealth that has been an issue in 7D2D.

 

In this way you could clear many POIs with little issue outside of some zombies that spawn in areas that would cause them to see you such as being right around a tight turn in a POI. It gives players that want to actually play stealth be able to do so but with the tradeoff that you need general knowledge behind the POI and spawn locations and you have to take your time due to the combination of slower movement speed and reworked line of sight mechanics.

 

Furthermore, I think once the developers have roaming zombies within POIs (as I belive they stated as much) then it could take the place of many "triggers" and allow for a much more immersive experience where you are actually waiting for the zombie pathing, etc.

 

I don't think all triggers need to go, I think some are fine, but the over-use of them is what has effectively put quite the damper on Agility and stealth as a whole compared to A20 and to other skill trees in A21. It's fine if you spawn in a few behind the player or in the ceiling, but spawning them right in front of you on the floors when the room previously had nothing and coming out from walls is a bit stupid IMO. I think it's easier to balance a tradeoff with stealth than to force people into removing it completly, especially in the case of end-game POIs where the majority of spawns are trigger based and they send 10-12 zombies at you. 

[EvilPolygons]

On 8/17/2023 at 1:21 AM, Kyoji said:

I imagine some of this could be fixed with their proposed new system allowing some zombies to "roam" within the POI which hopefully would reduce the number of trigger occurances and even sleeper zombies to a minumum. It makes far more sense and is more difficult to have zombies patrol an area than to have them lay on the ground or spawn in front of your eyes. 

 

 

Very much this. 👆

I think roaming POI zombies are a feature that both players and prefab creators would love to see added to the game.

[zztong]

15 hours ago, Krougal said:

Well, I specified on "horde night", are you disputing that? It isn't my opinion or my goals and desires, it is a simple fact of the game.

The rest of what you said is perfectly valid if that is your play style, but it has nothing to do with my statement and I stand behind it.

 

Nope. I'm not disputing it at all. I was saying the choices you make are based on your opinions, goals, desires and the facts.

 

I likely quoted that one point you made too closely, as I have seen people suggest that is a sole reason for why they thought stealth was worthless. You did have other reasons.