a21.1 b6 cloth cost increase

[pApA^LeGBa]

@Krougal Ah yeah for mining you need no gear? Good to know. Do you even play MP? If not you have no argument at all if you don´t know how it plays now and you sure sound like you have no idea. 

 

And for the screamer hordes that are attracted by the football field of dew collectors you need in MP and wandering hordes at the home base you surely need no gear aswell. All no problem with plantfiber clothes and stone weapons. Because choosing herself a weapon she likes is just stupid right? How dare someone likes the sledge/shotgun combo if no one else in the party does and we can´t provide a lot of magazines for that. Silly us.  

Edited August 21, 2023 by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)

[bloodmoth13]

No it doesn't make sense

Yes it is worth it

No it doesn't bother me

[Stranded_Napkin]

@Krougal the problem is that you're looking at it from only your own point of view. The issue isn't that if you go through POI's as a group, that it can be done quicker. It's that you all have to loot in the first place. What's the point of playing coop if you're really just joined at the hip the whole time. You're supposed to assist each other, not become conjoined twins.

The attitude where you dismiss the need for everybody to loot cloth like chickens with their heads cut off because the inefficient moron of a character needs 200 pieces of cloth to do what 5 should be able to speaks for itself. Cloth is easy to get, that's still as true as ever. That being said, it makes literally no sense that anybody would need 200 pieces of cloth to make a freaking pocket. 

 

If somebody wants to just dig in A21, they have to loot as well. The only way the get around that is if they are willing to spend an eternity in the stone age or somebody else has to also spec into the perks. You do loot magazines when not spec'd into them but at a far slower rate. A21 takes the fun out of all of that. 

 

And holy hell that dbag take on base mom. Doesn't need gear? Thank God I'm not in your party as you appear to leave everybody else high and dry. 3500 hours in game is impossible to achieve without ever having killed a zombie. They still need gear. 

 

Remember this, just because you can dismiss something does not mean it's smart to.

[Krougal]

deleted

Edited August 21, 2023 by Krougal (see edit history)

[meganoth]

I play coop multiplayer and before the change we had about 10 full stacks of cloth in our parts box and nothing to do with it. We stopped collecting cloth at some unknown earlier day anyway. After the change we actually got rid of those stack with glue production, but then two of us went out, one raided an already looted hotel, the other an already looted savage country (for clothes, beds and curtains) and we had 10 full stacks again. Took us maybe 10 minutes to loot the stuff we left there because it was useless before.

 

I bet if the looters of any MP group just keep the cloth they find (by wrenching beds or in cupboards or by scraping clothes) then they can easily support the same amount of "homies" without going out of their way. Before the change cloth was one of the items you throw away immediately after day 10. Just think of all the clothes you didn't even care to scrap in your previous game, how much cloth would that make in sum?

 

That is only a guess though and there needs to be some play testing with fresh new games.

 

Because of the stack limit I have the feeling it might just make sense to half any drop, harvest and recipe amounts. I.e. this would make no difference for how long you loot to produce anything, but your cloth would occupy half the space of what it does now without changing the stack limit.

 

Edited August 21, 2023 by meganoth (see edit history)

[pApA^LeGBa]

Sure, it´s doable. No one denied that. But do i really wanna miss out on the fun part that is explosive bolts and a rocketlauncher because the devs deceided that cloth fragments are now a crucial item at all times? I mean gathering cloth is not the definiton of fun. And those 5500 are just cloting pocket mods and the last tier of armor.

 

And as said, the main concern is for me that this seems to be a trend. We now have 3 changes that impact MP in a bad way a lot more than SP, water is even a non issue in SP. Recipes can be modded easily. That´s not the real problem.

 

Also to mention for all the people who think MP is just the easier version, i´d like to ask how you would like demos at the day 21 horde when you still lack a lot of crafting skills and maybe can´t even craft a chemstation so far? (happened, even with 2 people skilled for workstation magazines and constant looting)

 

The fact that a lot of people aren´t bothered that crafting skills are now kinda RNG also baffles me. 

Edited August 21, 2023 by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)

[meganoth]

5500 sounds so impressive. But when that guy who looted just one savage country brought back 2500 cloth alone (at least that is the number I think he mentioned in chat, might have misheard) then that number isn't that impressive anymore.

 

And in normal gameplay you wouldn't do anything different, just keep cloth instead of dropping it. You may be surprised how much you would bring back every day and all it costs is another inventory slot.

 

21 minutes ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

Also to mention for all the people who think MP is just the easier version, i´d like to ask how you would like demos at the day 21 horde when you still lack a lot of crafting skills and maybe can´t even craft a chemstation so far? (happened, even with 2 people skilled for workstation magazines and constant looting)

 

The important info here would be what type of weapons did you have and how much ammo. Guns kill a demo, pocket mods and chem stations do not 😁. Seriously, I still think MP is still much much easier, even with a few demos on horde night.

 

25 minutes ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

The fact that a lot of people aren´t bothered that crafting skills are now kinda RNG also baffles me. 

 

Perks were an alternative way to get some recipes, generally recipes were always RNG too. And it bothered me that especially in MP the whole progression could be accelerated greatly by perks.

 

In fact that is a detail I don't like with magazines, the reduced randomness of getting unrelated recipes like the food recipes. With weapon recipes that is fine as those recipes are practically just improvements on almost the same weapon, but it is a bit boring that I always get the gas can recipe at exactly the same time in my progression

 

[Krougal]

38 minutes ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

The fact that a lot of people aren´t bothered that crafting skills are now kinda RNG also baffles me. 

If anything it is less random than it used to be (and Meganoth posted while I was writing). You put points in perks and you get those magazines. So far (I've got a couple A21 games under my belt, but only SP) I will have maxed my trees out on books and everything else is in the 20s. Now I agree this must suck hard in MP because unless you divy up who loots the mailboxes and bookshelves then you are going to get mostly what the guy with the perks have. I guess the designated looter is a thing of the past (because yes, I have played MP prior to A21). And no, I'm not a big fan of the magazines either.

 

You should be getting significant stuff from quests and loot, especially if you haven't made QL6 craftable I mean who wants to be stuck with QL5? I go through duct tape by the truckload, 2 QL6 robotic turrets were 90 each. Drone 60. Full set of QL6 steel and military armor crafted, and pockets 😛 I've still got a half a chest of cloth. I have ran through the clothing store probably twice this run. I otherwise have not put myself out gathering cloth. It's still pretty much a 1 time ordeal because once you have full t3 gear you don't need to gather anything besides building material and ammo at that point.

 

I am just still having trouble believing it is as bad as you make it out to be.

 

Yes, it's random of course, someone in that thread said like 3k.

It's hard for me to say exactly because I couldn't even carry it all out in 1 trip.

 

Edited August 21, 2023 by Krougal (see edit history)

[meganoth]

37 minutes ago, Krougal said:

Now I agree this must suck hard in MP because unless you divy up who loots the mailboxes and bookshelves then you are going to get mostly what the guy with the perks have

 

Oh right, that is the other thing I don't like with magazines. Originally they said the boost would be minimal, but now in effect it is the all-overriding mechanic to get specific magazines and in comparison nearly none of everthing else.  Instead of a safety measure which it should have been.

 

 

Edited August 21, 2023 by meganoth (see edit history)

[Krougal]

3 minutes ago, meganoth said:

 

Oh right, that is the other thing I don't like with magazines. Originally they said the boost would be minimal, but now in effect it is the all-overriding mechanic to get specific magazines and in comparison nearly none of everthing else.  Instead of a safety measure which it should have been.

 

 

Well maybe they will tweak it, but more likely, it will just be replaced by something we all hate even more in A22 and we'll all reminisce about the "good old days when you got recipes from magazines"

[meganoth]

10 minutes ago, Krougal said:

Well maybe they will tweak it, but more likely, it will just be replaced by something we all hate even more in A22 and we'll all reminisce about the "good old days when you got recipes from magazines"

 

Tongue in cheek comment? Or do you seriously think that?

 

Despite the claims of TFP overhauling their game each new alpha the only whole system that was immediately replaced again in the next alpha was the perk system of A17 (to my knowledge). And no, even though replacing the crafting recipe system in A21 made some changes necessary in perks, the perk SYSTEM was not changed at all. 

 

Edited August 21, 2023 by meganoth (see edit history)

[RipClaw]

2 hours ago, meganoth said:

I bet if the looters of any MP group just keep the cloth they find (by wrenching beds or in cupboards or by scraping clothes) then they can easily support the same amount of "homies" without going out of their way.

Wrenching beds doesn't really get you much cloth. Maybe 3 or 4 cloth. That was apparently not increased. The best source of cloth is scrapping clothing. A visit in a Savage Country will get you about 3000 cloth but it's a bit tedious because you only have 4 queue spots.

 

[Krougal]

18 minutes ago, meganoth said:

 

Tongue in cheek comment? Or do you seriously think that?

 

Despite the claims of TFP overthrowing their system each new alpha the only whole system that was immediately replaced again in the next alpha was the perk system of A17 (to my knowledge). And no, even though replacing the crafting recipe system in A21 made some changes necessary in perks, the perk SYSTEM was not changed at all. 

 

Maybe a little of both. It does feel like they will toss a system instead of tweaking it regularly enough for it to be almost a meme, but perhaps you are right since I can't think of anything else at the moment. You're right about the perk system though, it has been pretty consistent for a while.

 

Back to the topic, I think if they reduced the amount of duct tape per recipe (because it is @%$#ing ridiculous) and yes, even cut the pockets and other recipes in half it would make a lot of people less unhappy. Obviously reduce the amount from scrapping clothes by half too. They could then leave the stack size and the amount we get from scrapping curtains and the like and it would all feel a little more balanced. I mean I also have the acquisitiveness of a magpie so even trying to not gather cloth, I still wind up bringing it home, maybe not everyone is still overflowing with cloth. 

 

  

2 minutes ago, RipClaw said:

Wrenching beds doesn't really get you much cloth. Maybe 3 or 4 cloth. That was apparently not increased. The best source of cloth is scrapping clothing. A visit in a Savage Country will get you about 3000 cloth but it's a bit tedious because you only have 4 queue spots.

 

 

Very!

Edited August 21, 2023 by Krougal (see edit history)

[meganoth]

18 minutes ago, RipClaw said:

Wrenching beds doesn't really get you much cloth. Maybe 3 or 4 cloth. That was apparently not increased. The best source of cloth is scrapping clothing. A visit in a Savage Country will get you about 3000 cloth but it's a bit tedious because you only have 4 queue spots.

 

 

My list was incomplete, but not exclusive to the best sources. Our wrench guy usually wrenches most beds in early game for the springs and pipes anyways, so this is just one of the many sources where cloth comes in all the time. When I went through the hotel (I was one of the two collecting cloth in my story above) I just used the axe. My result from the hotel was only upwards of 500 cloth by the way.

 

 

What do you mean with queue spots? The concurrent jobs in your backpack crafting queue? How is that a limit with cloth?

 

Edited August 21, 2023 by meganoth (see edit history)

[theFlu]

21 minutes ago, meganoth said:

How is that a limit with cloth?

Scrapping things takes time based on the resources gained, cloth yield got increased 10x => scrapping time got increased 10x. It's something like half a minute a piece now.

[RipClaw]

33 minutes ago, meganoth said:

What do you mean with queue spots? The concurrent jobs in your backpack crafting queue? How is that a limit with cloth?

Since clothes do not stack, your inventory will be full pretty quickly. Then the scrapping begins. You queue up 4 items for scrapping and wait until the first one is done, then scrape again and wait again.

 

Edited August 21, 2023 by RipClaw (see edit history)

[Krougal]

27 minutes ago, RipClaw said:

Since clothes do not stack, your inventory will be full pretty quickly. Then the scrapping begins. You queue up 4 items for scrapping and wait until the first one is done, then scrape again and wait again.

 

Yeah, I start scrapping as I am looting and constantly trying to keep the queue full and my inventory not, but it is very micromanagement intensive and time-consuming (so not fun at all). But like I said, it's something to do once or twice per game and then never again.

Edited August 21, 2023 by Krougal (see edit history)

[Lasher]

Shhhhhhh... did you not know that this once again makes the game more "Challenging"?

No honest.

It does.

No really...

 

[meganoth]

1 hour ago, theFlu said:

Scrapping things takes time based on the resources gained, cloth yield got increased 10x => scrapping time got increased 10x. It's something like half a minute a piece now.

 

Nice, didn't notice. Ok, I would guess this is an unintended consequence of the change. Though I don't know if they will ever fix it, in a normal playthrough I would assume one would seldomly hit the limit because of clothes overload.

 

 

 

Edited August 21, 2023 by meganoth (see edit history)

[Krougal]

16 minutes ago, meganoth said:

 

Nice, didn't notice. Ok, I would guess this is an unintended consequence of the change. Though I don't know if they will ever fix it, in a normal playthrough I would assume one would seldomly hit the limit because of clothes overload.

 

 

 

Well, and that would be another plus if they cut the cloth in half. Half the salvage time for clothes too.

[pApA^LeGBa]

Magazines are kind of random. I had a start where i couldn´t get 10 cooking magazines until day 5. I went from house to house, looted every POI i knew that had shamway boxes during those 5 days. And i had 1 point into masterchef from the start. (That was SP)

 

Also had it that we weren´t able to craft a chemstation before we got demos on day 21 despite 2 people having points into the skill and were constantly looting  POI´s.

 

Magazines do work generally but randomness regarding skills is a bad idea imo. But again it´s more of a gameplay issue, hunting for magazines before ferals/rad/demos show up. You can´t pass a mailbox or magazine box it dominates your playing along with looking for water.

Edited August 21, 2023 by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)

[theFlu]

15 minutes ago, meganoth said:

Ok, I would assume this is an unintended consequence of the change.

Could be, but for now the consequences of the changes they've made are:

- Clothing is the easiest source of cloth, other sources were left untouched, thus left behind (I haven't checked farming thou..). But the scrapping required is now tedious.

- Multiplayer games are now way more limited on cloth compared to SP.

 

Might be intended, might not. I'm not one to guess. It does look like it isn't really thought through though, with the incremental changes, but that's been the dev cycle in many places here..

[Krougal]

1 minute ago, theFlu said:

Could be, but for now the consequences of the changes they've made are:

- Clothing is the easiest source of cloth, other sources were left untouched, thus left behind (I haven't checked farming thou..). But the scrapping required is now tedious.

- Multiplayer games are now way more limited on cloth compared to SP.

 

Might be intended, might not. I'm not one to guess. It does look like it isn't really thought through though, with the incremental changes, but that's been the dev cycle in many places here..

My gut is they were trying this out, and other resources will likely follow this pattern in the future. I mean some of it would be welcomed, I don't even use feathers, and they really aren't worth bothering with selling past early game, but yet I am always on the lookout for eggs and so I have to constantly throw out feathers. There are a few other resources that just seem to accumulate too much of with no good use for. Hopefully they tweak it a bit. I still think overall it was a good change, but the numbers need some adjustment. That is part of the problem around here too, we as a community tend to just @%$# that we hate some change but if we all said "hey, I think this is good but tone it down a little" maybe we'd get better results.

[RipClaw]

7 minutes ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

Magazines are kind of random. I had a start where i couldn´t get 10 cooking magazines until day 5. I went from house to house, looted every POI i knew that had shamway boxes during those 5 days. And i had 1 point into masterchef from the start. (That was SP)

 

Also had it that we weren´t able to craft a chemstation before we got demos on day 21 despite 2 people having points into the skill and were constantly looting  POI´s.

The magazines are not completely random. It is a weighted randomness.

 

And there are a couple of things that are good to know.

 

The first is that you should never put points into Advanced Engeering if you want to collect Forge Ahead magazines. You have to put the points into Lockpicking. Sounds strange, but the reason is that Advanced Engineering also boosts other magazines, whereas Lockpicking only boosts Forge Ahead magazines.

 

The second is that you should not waste points in Physician or Living of the Land. These two magazines can be found in abundance anyway, even without a boost. And if possible, you should only put points into a few perks that boost skill magazines. I try never to have more than 4 perks active at the same time.

 

[Krougal]

16 minutes ago, RipClaw said:

The magazines are not completely random. It is a weighted randomness.

 

And there are a couple of things that are good to know.

 

The first is that you should never put points into Advanced Engeering if you want to collect Forge Ahead magazines. You have to put the points into Lockpicking. Sounds strange, but the reason is that Advanced Engineering also boosts other magazines, whereas Lockpicking only boosts Forge Ahead magazines.

 

The second is that you should not waste points in Physician or Living of the Land. These two magazines can be found in abundance anyway, even without a boost. And if possible, you should only put points into a few perks that boost skill magazines. I try never to have more than 4 perks active at the same time.

 

Farming especially since it caps out at like 22, would suck to keep getting the mag all the time Not to mention talk about tedious, to me farming is @%$#ing tedious. I throw down like 20 plots and use whatever seeds I find, try to remember to harvest & replant when I can. Put perk points into it? Pfffttt!

 

papa's experience with the cooking mags is wierd though, I currently have no points in chef, last game I think I put a point or 2 in late game, but cooking mags seem common (and really, they need to be), especially in the locations he searched.

 

Edited August 21, 2023 by Krougal (see edit history)