Shotgun slugs feel unbalanced now with b323

[FranticDan]

On 6/30/2023 at 4:37 AM, BFT2020 said:

 

It's probably something of an oversight now that I think of it.  Before, double, pump, and auto didn't have a boost so there wasn't a reason to look at the code.  Now that they added the boost, it gets added disproportionately on the ammo.  Since they didn't do it before, there was no need to add a special tag to distinguish the difference.

 

They probably need to add additional code so slugs get the entire boost per shot (so 5 on pump) while the shot gets 1/10 of that per pellet.

Yeah I'd say so, surely no way it's intentional!
Before the change, slugs were about 5% weaker than shells across the board. Whereas now, slugs get worse in comparison to shells as the tier of shotgun goes up from pipe

[FranticDan]

On 6/30/2023 at 12:54 AM, Jugginator said:

Don't forget the slugs have more range and further damage falloff range.

Slugs damage has been nerfed into the ground with the Pumpy and Auto Shotguns

Since this hasn't been addressed for A21.1, I want to ask the reasoning behind why slugs are WEAKER to soldiers than shells (with the Auto at the very least)?

The info below is with a level 1 character, no points or books read (fresh spawn)





It blows my mind, that a Pipe Shotgun in b317 with slugs dealt more dmg (204.5) than what an Auto Shotgun does in A21.1 (184.8)

Edited July 21, 2023 by FranticDan (see edit history)

[Gr.o.m.]

Can you tell mee, at which range did you shoot the soldier boy?

Point blank probably. Where each and every pellet hits and there is no damage drop off because of range.

Please do us the favor and do the same at 5m, 10m and 20m range. Then you might have the answer.

[FranticDan]

16 minutes ago, Gr.o.m. said:

Can you tell mee, at which range did you shoot the soldier boy?

Point blank probably. Where each and every pellet hits and there is no damage drop off because of range.

Please do us the favor and do the same at 5m, 10m and 20m range. Then you might have the answer.

point blank, and each mod reduces spread so the crosshair was super tight

Range isn't the issue, its the dmg. Range wasn't changed, only dmg

I know WHY this has happened, because each projectile got a dmg buff for pumpy and auto, and since shells have 10 projectiles, shells got buffed 10x more than slugs did.
Which is also why slugs in the pipe is VERY high dmg in comparison to shells, since pipe has a dmg nerf instead of a buff, so the shells got nerfed 10x more than slugs


Before, slugs were great from early game to late game, now slugs are only good in the early game. When compared to shells.
I also want to point out the obvious that slugs penetrate 50% armour, which makes the slugs look even worse when shells do MORE dmg to a 50 armour rating target than slugs that cut that armour down to 25

Pointing out the obvious still, in b217, slugs did over 60% MORE dmg than shells with the Auto, while in A21.1 slugs deal 15% LESS dmg than shells



Counter argument: Would you use AP 7.62 ammo if they did 30% less raw dmg than regular 7.62?

Edited July 21, 2023 by FranticDan (see edit history)

[FranticDan]

Here's an extreme example of what I'm talking about slugs being nerfed.
For clarity, I buffed the damage of the Auto from vanilla's +10 and increased it to +50. To help make the dmg difference between shells and slugs a lot more obvious.

Shells, doing a whopping 990 dmg!!!


Slugs doing a pitiful 250 dmg

[meganoth]

I assume it is about this line (for auto shotgun):

<passive_effect name="EntityDamage" operation="base_add" value="10" tags="perkBoomstick"/> <!-- damage offset -->

 

And this line didn't exist in A20 for shotguns while something similar does exist for higher levels of other guns. The initial creator obviously knew of the problem of adding damage to the base damage for the shotgun. Seems like either he forgot why he initially didn't add this line now, or someone new tried to balance it and didn't know.

 

If they want to cleanly use base_add for the shotgun they probably have to specify the base_damage for shots as the total damage (i.e. 100 for shots) and then divide damage by RoundRayCount (in the C# code where gun shots are handled)

 

IMHO surely not intentional, needs a bug report. Or maybe @Jugginator is still following this thread.

 

 

 

 

Edited July 21, 2023 by meganoth (see edit history)

[Gr.o.m.]

4 hours ago, FranticDan said:

point blank, and each mod reduces spread so the crosshair was super tight

Range isn't the issue, its the dmg. Range wasn't changed, only dmg

I know WHY this has happened, because each projectile got a dmg buff for pumpy and auto, and since shells have 10 projectiles, shells got buffed 10x more than slugs did.
Which is also why slugs in the pipe is VERY high dmg in comparison to shells, since pipe has a dmg nerf instead of a buff, so the shells got nerfed 10x more than slugs


Before, slugs were great from early game to late game, now slugs are only good in the early game. When compared to shells.
I also want to point out the obvious that slugs penetrate 50% armour, which makes the slugs look even worse when shells do MORE dmg to a 50 armour rating target than slugs that cut that armour down to 25

Pointing out the obvious still, in b217, slugs did over 60% MORE dmg than shells with the Auto, while in A21.1 slugs deal 15% LESS dmg than shells



Counter argument: Would you use AP 7.62 ammo if they did 30% less raw dmg than regular 7.62?

I don't think you can argue, that only the raw damge matters. Lets assume for a moment the pimps would have changed pelletshells in the following way, without changing the damage: Spread is changed to 180 degree, damge fall off 50% PER meter, to 0 damage for ranges for more than 5 meter. I think we can both agree that that would be a brutal nerv to pellet damage.

 

Slugs are still verry good. They do more damage at range and at armored targets. And don't forget, that you don't want to shoot at demolishers with shells.  😉

[FranticDan]

2 hours ago, meganoth said:

I assume it is about this line (for auto shotgun):

<passive_effect name="EntityDamage" operation="base_add" value="10" tags="perkBoomstick"/> <!-- damage offset -->

 

And this line didn't exist in A20 for shotguns while something similar does exist for higher levels of other guns. The initial creator obviously knew of the problem of adding damage to the base damage for the shotgun. Seems like either he forgot why he initially didn't add this line now, or someone new tried to balance it and didn't know.

 

If they want to cleanly use base_add for the shotgun they probably have to specify the base_damage for shots as the total damage (i.e. 100 for shots) and then divide damage by RoundRayCount (in the C# code where gun shots are handled)

 

IMHO surely not intentional, needs a bug report. Or maybe @Jugginator is still following this thread.

 

 

 

 

I'd hope it is an oversight, because as you can see above in my extreme example, slugs are a joke with base_add =50 when compared to shells
The dmg that shells do is nicely balanced and gets a nice buff with each shotgun tier, whereas the slugs get a tiny dmg increase and the gap between the two ammo types gets bigger and bigger

 

 

1 hour ago, Gr.o.m. said:

I don't think you can argue, that only the raw damge matters. Lets assume for a moment the pimps would have changed pelletshells in the following way, without changing the damage: Spread is changed to 180 degree, damge fall off 50% PER meter, to 0 damage for ranges for more than 5 meter. I think we can both agree that that would be a brutal nerv to pellet damage.

 

Slugs are still verry good. They do more damage at range and at armored targets. And don't forget, that you don't want to shoot at demolishers with shells.  😉

Thing is, the range never changed, at all, only the base dmg. And the dmg is literally the entire point of my post, to point out an possible oversight when they rebalanced all of the weapons and tools.

I used to get excited when unlocking slugs, cause then I could wreck things. Now, they are a waste of time when I can do MORE dmg to ARMOURED targets with shells

[Jugginator]

I'll have a look at this at some point soon, but I do want to bring up that damage isn't everything. The fact that slugs are effective from a much larger distance than shells with more accuracy and penetration means that there has to be some trade off, since shotgun shells are only good at a very close range, and if you want ALL the pellets to hit the target you're aiming at then you have to be point-blank -- slugs don't need point blank. Another example, being on top of bars shooting down at zombies on a horde night: with shells, you need to only have 3 - 4 m distance which is risky and mostly enemies may be hit with only one pellet or two - if lucky, more -  while with the slug you can be double that and still hit things with full force. If slugs hit further, are more accurate and more accurate at a longer distance, they do more damage at longer ranges, they penetrate 50% armor and penetrate two targets as a base, AND did more per-shot damage than shells -- why would anyone use shells unless they didn't have any slugs? That aoe is not worth it then. 

[theFlu]

29 minutes ago, Jugginator said:

why would anyone use shells unless they didn't have any slugs?

Isn't that the case for every ammo type atm, use HiPower instead of normal if you have it, even starting with bows, use iron arrows if you have a forge?

[Jugginator]

1 minute ago, theFlu said:

Isn't that the case for every ammo type atm, use HiPower instead of normal if you have it, even starting with bows, use iron arrows if you have a forge?

 

Shells are in a different spot because they have AOE, which also is affected by perks. In the cases with hipower and upgraded arrow tips, those are pure upgrades.

[Old Crow]

1 hour ago, theFlu said:

Isn't that the case for every ammo type atm, use HiPower instead of normal if you have it, even starting with bows, use iron arrows if you have a forge?

 

People use HiPower? I just go for AP, same amount of materials, and helps with armored zombies.

[theFlu]

11 minutes ago, Old Crow said:

People use HiPower? I just go for AP, same amount of materials, and helps with armored zombies.

Ye, you're not wrong, AP is basically always better. I made the argument with HP as it's a direct upgrade, AP has additional features to invite discussion beyond my point. Somehow I started trying to avoid that...

[warmer]

Unless a zombie is deepthroating the barrel of your shotgun, you are very lucky to have every bit of shot hit them. Slug is a guaranteed at center of mass at 5 meters. Huge difference. 

 

Kill distance is a massive benefit and I think that should be reflected in lower total damage. You are never going to land all shot on a single target at 5 meters unless you are super lucky.

 

[theFlu]

35 minutes ago, warmer said:

Unless a zombie is deepthroating the barrel of your shotgun

Your overall point is valid, but this is the moment I want my payload to count for the most. Don't really care if the guy 5m away took 30% less damage, I got 300% more loaded just waiting for him to waddle over ...

[FranticDan]

2 hours ago, Jugginator said:

damage isn't everything.

You're right, however, damage is the only thing that was changed (to my knowledge) between the two versions. Sure, slugs do more damage than shells (at great distances), but only from about 7 metres onwards do they equalise and THEN slugs do more dmg.


Shells doing 100 dmg at about 7 metres (Insane difficulty)


 

Slugs doing 92 dmg at about 7.5 metres (Insane difficulty)

[BFT2020]

On 7/21/2023 at 6:10 PM, FranticDan said:

You're right, however, damage is the only thing that was changed (to my knowledge) between the two versions. Sure, slugs do more damage than shells (at great distances), but only from about 7 metres onwards do they equalise and THEN slugs do more dmg.

Shells doing 100 dmg at about 7 metres (Insane difficulty)
 

Slugs doing 92 dmg at about 7.5 metres (Insane difficulty)
 

 

 

How is the damage output on average when facing zombies that are moving and not stationary?  Are you still outmatching the slugs or with a moving zombie, are you missing more with pellets so your overall damage output is decreasing while the slugs are being more consistent?

 

I also noticed your mod selection.  Your picked mods specifically to improve the spread of shots so you will get a tighter cluster all the time.  This favors the min-max approach where you are picking the upgrades on your weapon to maximize the damage output from a specific ammo type.

 

Would you see the same damage output comparison if you went a different route in regards to mod selection, like:

• Pump - tube extender, choke, rad remover, cripple em
• Auto - same setup but Drum magazine in place of tube extender

Edited July 24, 2023 by BFT2020 (see edit history)

[FranticDan]

20 minutes ago, BFT2020 said:

 

 

How is the damage output on average when facing zombies that are moving and not stationary?  Are you still outmatching the slugs or with a moving zombie, are you missing more with pellets so your overall damage output is decreasing while the slugs are being more consistent?

 

I also noticed your mod selection.  Your picked mods specifically to improve the spread of shots so you will get a tighter cluster all the time.  This favors the min-max approach where you are picking the upgrades on your weapon to maximize the damage output from a specific ammo type.

 

Would you see the same damage output comparison if you went a different route in regards to mod selection, like:

• Pump - tube extender, choke, rad remover, cripple em
• Auto - same setup but Drum magazine in place of tube extender

I haven't bothered using slugs since the change, because why would I want to drastically lower my damage?

Before the change, slugs did about 5% less dmg across the board, and I was happy to change from shells for the slightly less dmg,
while now, slugs are only good when using Pipe and Double. (Especially the Pipe!!)
Shells are best for Pumpy and Auto.

Regarding mods, I typically get at least 2 or 3 points in Run and Gun (I mostly only hipfire), so changing the mods around like you listed would probably widen the spread slightly as seen in my screenshots, so shots at 7 metres would be harder to get all pellets. However, I use shotguns in close quarters so my shots are easier to hit the head. I use other guns for range.
With my playstyle, I easily line up zombies so I can take out groups quickly, even quicker with shells since they do about 70% more dmg than slugs now (Auto)
So if 4/10 pellets missed, the dmg would be about the same.

There's also only 2 entities that slugs have a big effect on, soldier and demo, as they have 50 and 60 armour. The biker and utility only have 20, so it's very obvious that shells are the superior ammo type now in the late/end game

[Lamblaska]

1 hour ago, BFT2020 said:

 

 

How is the damage output on average when facing zombies that are moving and not stationary?  Are you still outmatching the slugs or with a moving zombie, are you missing more with pellets so your overall damage output is decreasing while the slugs are being more consistent?

 

I also noticed your mod selection.  Your picked mods specifically to improve the spread of shots so you will get a tighter cluster all the time.  This favors the min-max approach where you are picking the upgrades on your weapon to maximize the damage output from a specific ammo type.

 

Would you see the same damage output comparison if you went a different route in regards to mod selection, like:

• Pump - tube extender, choke, rad remover, cripple em
• Auto - same setup but Drum magazine in place of tube extender

Adding to that. I do think the test he did is an interesting one. But as he also increases the effective range of the shell ammo, he also increase the range effectiveness of the slug ammo. Basically he's comparing both of them at a near effective range of the shell  I think it would be interesting to add the following tests:
 

• 4 Meters
  • 2 zombies em line
  • 2 zombies side by side
• 8 Meters
  • 2 zombies in line
  • 2 zombies side by side
• 12 Meters
  • 2 zombies in line
  • 2 zombies side by side

 

But I really understand that if the same doesn't happen in lower tier shotguns, it is not consistent somehow. 

[Manserk]

Also, slugs take polymers to craft, which you don't have much of because of dew collectors.

[pookandpie]

Is this issue with slugs still persisting in the following updates of A21?

[FranticDan]

3 hours ago, pookandpie said:

Is this issue with slugs still persisting in the following updates of A21?

Very much so, slugs being nerfed into the ground is a feature and not a bug at this point. You're best to use slugs with the Pipe and Double shotguns, stick with shells when using Pump and Auto

[Uncle Al]

Is it possible slugs got tweaked in other ways, when they didn't get a proportional damage increase?

 

I only noticed recently that the .44 magnum penetrates one target when using normal ammunition. That's a huge bonus to what would otherwise be an unremarkable weapon, for its tier, and it doesn't appear to be documented anywhere at all.

[theFlu]

20 minutes ago, Uncle Al said:

That's a huge bonus to what would otherwise be an unremarkable weapon, for its tier, and it doesn't appear to be documented anywhere at all.

I think that's from the book set, the completion bonus. Maybe, with a dash of iirc

[Uncle Al]

1 hour ago, theFlu said:

I think that's from the book set, the completion bonus. Maybe, with a dash of iirc

 

I'm sure I didn't have a full set of Magnum Enforcer on that playthrough. I found a magnum suprisingly early. You could well be right though. That would explain it.