Zombie Horde Pathing - Discussion

[8_Hussars]

In several threads several posters have indicated they like Zombie AI horde pathing; the old way, the new way, or some other way.

Many call using the zombie AI horde pathing against them cheese, many call putting endless resources between players and horde zombies cheese, and some even call not have a horde base cheese.

Regardless, here is your chance to outdo TFPs, discuss the AI horde pathing options, and detail the zombie AI horde pathing you want to see!

[DiegoLBC1]

TFP make the game. I modify it in my own way (they allow it).

 

End.

 

My point.

[Ornias]

I think most of us are just waiting for Gold so we can get modding it to our liking. Luckily there are some really good mods every alpha. 

[minisith]

I think the current ai pathing is good for tower defense, what is in the game's description on the store.  I see a lot of players not liking tower defense.  But it is tfp game, which the game is complex for what is all planned to be put into the game.

[8_Hussars]

Thanks all.   I am fine to leave the thread here.

I was hoping that those players who perfer different Zombie AI (bash everything vs bloodmoon sense vs structural engineers, etc.) chime in with their proposals.

At this point I have to assume no one has better ideas than TFPs.

[pahbi]

I was a huge fan of the pathing back in the early alphas, blood night had a very George Romero feel to it.

 

That said, the current pathing which more resembles tower defence is fine to.

 

My only criticism is that the tower defence model tends to rely on finding ways to exploit zombie pathing.  

 

That said, I would like to see two things some day:

 

1.  Some sliders and switches for zombie blood night AI, so we can more finely tune blood night.

 

2.  Enhancements to brawling and pathing so we could just straight up brawl our way through a blood night.

 

 

Edited January 9, 2022 by pahbi (see edit history)

[Darklegend222]

I like the tower defense like pathing. The only issue is we don't have enough traps, and a lot of relies on steel. Spikes don't do literally anything. The dart traps are OKAY if you don't mind setting off demolishers. As for turrets, see the part on the demolishers. Blade traps paired with electric fence traps are the ONLY way to survive and successfully kill all of a horde without grinding for 6000+ nitrate and coal every single night after bloodmoon.

 

I like the way it feels and plays, but the balancing seems poor. Demolishers make it infinitely worse, there's no reason i should be seeing 12-18 every blood moon, sometimes a lot more. You really have no choice but to use the blade traps and fence traps unless you don't mind setting them off with darts/turrets or wasting tons of explosives to kill them. It's just not enjoyable to survive since your immediately gonna go right back to mining for 3+ days in-game then back to crafting.

 

 

[Boidster]

22 hours ago, Darklegend222 said:

The dart traps are OKAY if you don't mind setting off demolishers.

 

Boy do I have good news for you! Dart traps do not set off Demolishers. I personally use head-height ceiling mounted blade traps + dart traps in the kill corridor walls to make short work of them (if they get past the jumping-puzzle part of the path, which is under constant fire from us up in the base).

 

Just to be sure they didn't change things in A20, I tested a Demolisher abuse prison. Killed many of them, not a single one got activated.

 

[Marinxar]

My personal feel is, it is not Tower Defense enough.... Meaning; The zombies should only stop and start attacking anything, if their path is blocked. Not some math calculations on structural integrity vs length of path to player etc.  I am pretty sure this is what is causing all the mess with AI pathing, is trying to make it too complex.  It should be a very simply calculation, can I, as zombie, get to player, or not. 

[Darklegend222]

12 minutes ago, Boidster said:

 

Boy do I have good news for you! Dart traps do not set off Demolishers. I personally use head-height ceiling mounted blade traps + dart traps in the kill corridor walls to make short work of them (if they get past the jumping-puzzle part of the path, which is under constant fire from us up in the base).

 

Just to be sure they didn't change things in A20, I tested a Demolisher abuse prison. Killed many of them, not a single one got activated.

 

Hmm, i may create a wall of dart traps in that case. I personally prefer the blade trap with a fence through it. I'll have to setup a motion sensor that's connected via switch so I can manually set the darts to go off when demolishers show up. That way I can also repair the blade trap and fence post when they're dead and not worry about my traps killing me.

[Boidster]

1 hour ago, Darklegend222 said:

I'll have to setup a motion sensor that's connected via switch so I can manually set the darts to go off when demolishers show up.

 

We use trip wires and electric fences which run through each pair of opposing dart traps. So the trap only fires when there's a Z in front of it, and the fence will lock them into their acupuncture session for a few moments. Definitely tied to a switch or two for safety. A switch that is not susceptible to the &#$@ cop spit. Ask me how I learned that.

[BFT2020]

On 1/9/2022 at 2:35 PM, Darklegend222 said:

The dart traps are OKAY if you don't mind setting off demolishers. As for turrets, see the part on the demolishers.

I believe the auto and shotgun turret now don't set off demolishers.  The portable ones still do, but not the ones that require electricity.  I have seen some test videos on Alpha 20 where it didn't seem like they were getting set off (and the good ones had more than one demolisher as a test).

[Darklegend222]

4 hours ago, Boidster said:

 

We use trip wires and electric fences which run through each pair of opposing dart traps. So the trap only fires when there's a Z in front of it, and the fence will lock them into their acupuncture session for a few moments. Definitely tied to a switch or two for safety. A switch that is not susceptible to the &#$@ cop spit. Ask me how I learned that.

I may need a screenshot of how you have that setup, I thought I was good at creating paths for zombies. It seems that you have it properly covered.

 

I found the easiest solution is to create a box of 8 blade traps, with 4 electric fence posts. It can handle any form of horde on any difficulty, but it needs a ton of steel. I'm sure it's the best horde base out there since you don't need to do anything except repair, however I always like new designs that offer manual labor!

4 hours ago, BFT2020 said:

I believe the auto and shotgun turret now don't set off demolishers.  The portable ones still do, but not the ones that require electricity.  I have seen some test videos on Alpha 20 where it didn't seem like they were getting set off (and the good ones had more than one demolisher as a test).

I'll do some personal tests, I'm not sure if I'll be able to upload a video since I don't have any editing software and the last time I tried, youtube wouldn't allow the file type. (because @%$# me for trying to upload a video to a site which gets tons of uploads)

[Boidster]

45 minutes ago, Darklegend222 said:

I may need a screenshot of how you have that setup

Well it's in our old 19.3 game on a dedicated server and it actually took less time to draw it than it would to fire that back up I think. The basic layout is below.

 

Spoiler

 

Zombies enter at lower left, climbing as they jump over stuff until they reach the platform where the sledge is. Some of them get to start over at that point!

 

The ones who get past the sledge start down the corridor where they get 2 acupuncture treatments and 3 haircuts (the floor is half-blocks, and the corridor is 3 blocks high, so blades really are designed to hit Demolisher heads only). If they survive that they turn the corner for more acupuncture. Very few zombies made it past the first set of dart traps after the corner. But we could see (from the firing position, looking down on the ramp) if any were getting close to the iron bars and we'd step over there and mow them down. If it got really hairy, we'd throw the Oh S**t switch and flush the zombies down into a pit to start over (or just bash on stuff down there).

 

Dart traps (2 high) are red blocks. They are all fronted by arrow slits with iron bars attached to the face. Tripwires are the green 'Y' symbols (some were outside the base on the exterior wall, but base is high up so they're not in any danger). Fenceposts are the blue star symbols. It took a while to sort out the layout and the wiring, but the base was pretty solid. We always had 2 or three support pillars broken out by the end of the night, but besides one time when cop spit took out a poorly-placed switch & relay, we never really were near being overrun. We'd spend horde night concentrating fire on the big guys - Demolishers, cops, wights. The peons would be killed by the darts.

[Darklegend222]

34 minutes ago, Boidster said:

Well it's in our old 19.3 game on a dedicated server and it actually took less time to draw it than it would to fire that back up I think. The basic layout is below.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Zombies enter at lower left, climbing as they jump over stuff until they reach the platform where the sledge is. Some of them get to start over at that point!

 

The ones who get past the sledge start down the corridor where they get 2 acupuncture treatments and 3 haircuts (the floor is half-blocks, and the corridor is 3 blocks high, so blades really are designed to hit Demolisher heads only). If they survive that they turn the corner for more acupuncture. Very few zombies made it past the first set of dart traps after the corner. But we could see (from the firing position, looking down on the ramp) if any were getting close to the iron bars and we'd step over there and mow them down. If it got really hairy, we'd throw the Oh S**t switch and flush the zombies down into a pit to start over (or just bash on stuff down there).

 

Dart traps (2 high) are red blocks. They are all fronted by arrow slits with iron bars attached to the face. Tripwires are the green 'Y' symbols (some were outside the base on the exterior wall, but base is high up so they're not in any danger). Fenceposts are the blue star symbols. It took a while to sort out the layout and the wiring, but the base was pretty solid. We always had 2 or three support pillars broken out by the end of the night, but besides one time when cop spit took out a poorly-placed switch & relay, we never really were near being overrun. We'd spend horde night concentrating fire on the big guys - Demolishers, cops, wights. The peons would be killed by the darts.

That's very interesting, I assume the yellow X's are where you have pressure plates? They've changed the traps and weapons a lot. Blade traps used to set off demolishers, dark traps used to set them off, and SMG turrets and shotgun turrets were useless once demolishers got brought in. I made a line of 10 SMG turrets and 10 Auto turrets all filled with ammo against 15 demolishers at once, not a single one got set off.

 

That is very useful information, turrets will be making a comeback and I'll have to start getting into using dart traps. I've never once used a tripwire post, I forgot they're even in the game!

 

Edit: turns out, tripwire posts.. don't trip. They send out a signal which is how I'm assuming that you specify the dart traps to shoot so that they don't waste all their ammo

Edited January 11, 2022 by Darklegend222 (see edit history)

[Tmodloader]

On 1/8/2022 at 12:07 PM, minisith said:

I think the current ai pathing is good for tower defense, what is in the game's description on the store.  I see a lot of players not liking tower defense.  But it is tfp game, which the game is complex for what is all planned to be put into the game.

I strongly disagree with this one. If it was good for tower defense, they would have a sense of attacking structural points.

I want ai pathing to knock down buildings more often

I am not sure how the current pathing is "tower defense" when I stand on top of a building they all attack the building next to it and leave my tower untouched.

Edited January 11, 2022 by Tmodloader (see edit history)

[Darklegend222]

1 hour ago, Tmodloader said:

I strongly disagree with this one. If it was good for tower defense, they would have a sense of attacking structural points.

I want ai pathing to knock down buildings more often

I am not sure how the current pathing is "tower defense" when I stand on top of a building they all attack the building next to it and leave my tower untouched.

Have you tried not being on top of a city tower and actually being on top of your own built structure? They go towards doors mostly, so build defenses between them, and your door. If they happen to break the door, then you better have some explosives or defenses planned on the other side as well.

 

There are PLENTIFUL guides online and some great tips here as to how you should go about it, you don't even need to copy any ideas to get a fully working defense. You just need some creativity and some know-how.

[Boidster]

14 hours ago, Darklegend222 said:

That's very interesting, I assume the yellow X's are where you have pressure plates? 

 

Sorry, the yellow Xs are the ceiling-mounted blade traps. Hanging upside-down to chop Demolisher heads (and not set them off).

 

14 hours ago, Darklegend222 said:

Edit: turns out, tripwire posts.. don't trip. They send out a signal which is how I'm assuming that you specify the dart traps to shoot so that they don't waste all their ammo

 

Yep. As long as a zombie is standing in the trip-wire, the dart traps fire. The electric fence lines, which are also running right through the center of the traps, hold them on the trip wire for a few seconds. I have used motion sensors in dart-trap kill corridors before, but it does consume more ammo and the sensors are vulnerable to acid damage. In A19, at least, it could be a real bear trying to get the motion sensor to see just the hallway and not zombies milling around outside. So we switched to trip wires. The wiring is much more complicated of course.