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NPCs rescue missions


MIOLOmole
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Hey PIMPs , my idea to shoot this game to best ever made, is to add NPCs rescue missions. The plot should be from a trader post assign the rescue mission, go to the location bring any number of NPCs all the way back to the trader post and get the rewards for each number of safe rescued NPCs. The NPCs should follow the main character within a certain short range, like a "magnet". During this journey if a NPC is bitten by a zombie it will turn into one, and it will decrease the amount of rewards you get from the rescue missions. I´ve never seen an idea like that in other game, and if u all gamers know a game with that, pls let me know. Many thanks !!! Keep up the good work. 7D2D is awesome !!! João Cruz : jpncxx@gmail.com PORTUGAL

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A lot of games, for example Fallout 3, have so called escort missions with single NPCs, but those missions also show that the NPCs do really dumb stuff and have problems following you. It is a difficult task to write a good AI for that. As far as I know TFP has said multiple times that such missions would take them too much precious time which is needed for other features with a better implementation time to fun ratio. 

 

That doesn't mean it is impossible that this feature gets implemented as their AI in A20 should be able to control a follower drone correctly, but I won't hold my breath for it.

 

PS: Please no double posts.

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Many thanks for the effort ! No AI required for the NPCs ... i think u ve just missed this point ! Simple basic "magnet range" idea ! And that's what I'm talking about, when i ve said that never saw that in other game ! Your example of FALLOUT 3 like others, fail because they try to put some AI for the NPCs !!! " take them ( PIMPs ) too much precious time ... ??!! " > Well, TIME is the the last word u should mention, with the development of ending this game :) !!! Besides fun ratio, these NPCs rescue missions, should get us a new hook for more REAL zombies movie like sensations, when u should feel a REAL hero by saving people, or feeling BAD when u lose survivors ... and that's what's missing in this game, and all others that don't have that feature. But HEY, that's only my opinion ! I've stopped playing 7D2D because the lack of those rescue missions, that should give daily new results to hook to it again, and again, ... There's a HUGE bunch of programming ideas that u can stick to the NPCs rescue missions : special npcs like "presidents", "mayors", family, animals, ... u name it. With different reward values for each type of NPC ! PIMPs pls use your bright imagination !!! I´m just a gamer, do whatever u like ... cheers !!! +- 1600 hours now with 7D2D !!! Cya ...

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Oh yes, AI is required for the NPCs. A simple "magnet range" idea (if I understand it correctly) would probably not be acceptable to TFPs quality standards.

 

Rescue missions will get stale like any other mission once you have done a few dozen. Who cares if that NPC is called "mayor"? If the mayor then doesn't feature prominently in a story all it means is that "mayor" means a bit more money. A quest isn't suddenly more fun if you get twice the money out of it.

 

I would suggest waiting for the alpha where NPCs/bandits finally make it into the vanilla game. I'm sure that modders will add rescue missions even if TFP might not.

 

Edited by meganoth (see edit history)
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5 hours ago, meganoth said:

Oh yes, AI is required for the NPCs. A simple "magnet range" idea (if I understand it correctly) would probably not be acceptable to TFPs quality standards.

 

Rescue missions will get stale like any other mission once you have done a few dozen. Who cares if that NPC is called "mayor"? If the mayor then doesn't feature prominently in a story all it means is that "mayor" means a bit more money. A quest isn't suddenly more fun if you get twice the money out of it.

 

I would suggest waiting for the alpha where NPCs/bandits finally make it into the vanilla game. I'm sure that modders will add rescue missions even if TFP might not.

 

honestly it could work in cod style escort mission - you have a  flying scientists drone and you need be near of it and sometimes zombie respawning and you must kill them before they kill you. drone is indestuctible but you have time limit to get to trader's gate. so we have dron idea so just change color on white and that's all

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18 hours ago, meganoth said:

Oh yes, AI is required for the NPCs. A simple "magnet range" idea (if I understand it correctly) would probably not be acceptable to TFPs quality standards.

 

Rescue missions will get stale like any other mission once you have done a few dozen. Who cares if that NPC is called "mayor"? If the mayor then doesn't feature prominently in a story all it means is that "mayor" means a bit more money. A quest isn't suddenly more fun if you get twice the money out of it.

 

I would suggest waiting for the alpha where NPCs/bandits finally make it into the vanilla game. I'm sure that modders will add rescue missions even if TFP might not.

" Who cares if that NPC is called "mayor"? ... " = I care and my mates too ... Just because you don´t, doesn't mean " law " ! Besides your opinion, no one answered " who cares " !!! That s rude ! I understand this topic is to share opinions, not BAN them ! ... By the way, rescue missions will not get stale like other missions, because you never know HOW many survivors u will rescue, and what type of them will survive. It is superior way better than all actual existing missions, and again more REAL movie like ! ... no AI required, because u are the AI hero and by that way you avoid AI fails. It's not the amount of money u get from the missions the main goal, is the tension of a long way survival with all npcs, which you can include different fear screams to them when being chased/attacked ... Open your mind !!! Fill the idea and not throw it away, just because ... Again, I'm just a gamer ! Cheers !!! Cya

18 hours ago, meganoth said:

 

 

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On 8/12/2021 at 10:23 AM, MIOLOmole said:

" Who cares if that NPC is called "mayor"? ... " = I care and my mates too ... Just because you don´t, doesn't mean " law " ! Besides your opinion, no one answered " who cares " !!! That s rude ! I understand this topic is to share opinions, not BAN them ! ... By the way, rescue missions will not get stale like other missions, because you never know HOW many survivors u will rescue, and what type of them will survive. It is superior way better than all actual existing missions, and again more REAL movie like ! ... no AI required, because u are the AI hero and by that way you avoid AI fails. It's not the amount of money u get from the missions the main goal, is the tension of a long way survival with all npcs, which you can include different fear screams to them when being chased/attacked ... Open your mind !!! Fill the idea and not throw it away, just because ... Again, I'm just a gamer ! Cheers !!! Cya

 

 

The same way you can share opinions I can share opinions, isn't this how opinions are shared? I don't see how that is rude.

Where did I ban your opinion? If you have good answers to my doubts this would even strengthen your case, wouldn't it?

 

I still don't see how it makes a difference if this NPC is simply called mayor without any consequence other than money. Would killing a basic zombie give you more pleasure if it was called behemoth or super zombie? 

 

I can see a gameplay difference when it is a group of zombies NPCs and you have to prioritize who to save in sticky situations, for the rather selfish and ignoble reason that he might net you more money. Other than that I simply have to trust you on your statement that you would care.

 

 

 

Edited by meganoth
slip of tongue. zombies ---> NPCs (see edit history)
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5 hours ago, meganoth said:

 

The same way you can share opinions I can share opinions, isn't this how opinions are shared? I don't see how that is rude.

Where did I ban your opinion? If you have good answers to my doubts this would even strengthen your case, wouldn't it?

 

I still don't see how it makes a difference if this NPC is simply called mayor without any consequence other than money. Would killing a basic zombie give you more pleasure if it was called behemoth or super zombie? 

 

I can see a gameplay difference when it is a group of zombies and you have to prioritize who to save in sticky situations, for the rather selfish and ignoble reason that he might net you more money. Other than that I simply have to trust you on your statement that you would care.

 

 

 

he probably thinks it could works like in cod xD. Because if you want to make something "emotional" in 7dtd it can be only  something like random respawing wight in cave XD

7 hours ago, MIOLOmole said:

" Who cares if that NPC is called "mayor"? ... " = I care and my mates too ... Just because you don´t, doesn't mean " law " ! Besides your opinion, no one answered " who cares " !!! That s rude ! I understand this topic is to share opinions, not BAN them ! ... By the way, rescue missions will not get stale like other missions, because you never know HOW many survivors u will rescue, and what type of them will survive. It is superior way better than all actual existing missions, and again more REAL movie like ! ... no AI required, because u are the AI hero and by that way you avoid AI fails. It's not the amount of money u get from the missions the main goal, is the tension of a long way survival with all npcs, which you can include different fear screams to them when being chased/attacked ... Open your mind !!! Fill the idea and not throw it away, just because ... Again, I'm just a gamer ! Cheers !!! Cya

 

1. Ai is required always no matter if it is 7dtd, l4d2 , tomb rider, resident evil or fnaf.

2. that coudn't work like movie - it would works more like hl2 when you have friendly npc. so they will just talk something random and shoot to zombies. Well better AI = less FPS. 

3. 99% people thing like - if i escort 5 i will get 1000 dukes coin if 4 i will get 800. nah i will take treasure hunt because  it gives more items and i can make 2 of them in this same time

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More? no matter how they looks or have name it will only depends on how much you will get coins, after mission they will disaapering and will not have any influence about anything. 

So honestly idea is good but it is important to think in realistic way what can be added

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Storm in a glass of water. Devs will certainly implement SI/AI or anything that resembles it, then we might see what comes out of it. Even triple-A studios have a huge amount of issues with bots implementation, so I would not expect miracles delivered on day 1. The perfect name for Soldier could be Private Yung "Destroyer"Parts and farmer protagonist might be called William "Willie" Stroker and so on if someone looks for inspiration... please, don`t ask me because I may get bananned for creativity. I would rather leave such inventions for the devs only.

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34 minutes ago, TWORDY said:

Storm in a glass of water. Devs will certainly implement SI/AI or anything that resembles it, then we might see what comes out of it. Even triple-A studios have a huge amount of issues with bots implementation, so I would not expect miracles delivered on day 1. The perfect name for Soldier could be Private Yung "Destroyer"Parts and farmer protagonist might be called William "Willie" Stroker and so on if someone looks for inspiration... please, don`t ask me because I may get bananned for creativity. I would rather leave such inventions for the devs only.

well and "transport" missions are hated by players - skyrim or resident evil 4 was so annoying when we had npc companion

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U r mixing SIDE MISSIONS idea with CAMPAIGN ! Picking up your words " my idea doesn´t care " if the NPC mayor, familiy, pets, will not take part in the game plot. Simple basic rescue missions. Besides the maths of survival rewards, is the FUN of trying to get the NPCs all alive to the trade post. Again, no AI required for NPCs on side missions. Besides, the idea is to pick up a group of NPCs in the same place, not at different random locations "once" the mission starts. Different random locations r for each new mission, not for where the NPCs are located separately. U don´t choose which NPCs to save. Your only maths will be to save the many as u can. Since it's not CAMPAING = NO AI required ! Final ! If u insist in that, u r not adressing my idea ever. Fear screams for each of those NPCs it´s not AI ! They don´t need to shoot or fight back, just magnet range run with you ! U r the only AI ! Simple as that ! Like it or not, as usual, is only your opinion, and with that i can't argue. It's not that i'm searching for your approval for whatever ... If PIMPs do that, I will return to 7D2D, if not, trillion games to play ... just my opinion, just my choice. Cheers !!!

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When we are talking about AI, we are talking about different things here. So let me define first what AI technically means in a game:

 

The AI of an NPC does not only control the NPCs attack or how he talks to you. It also controls in detail which path it follows if it has to follow you. This may seem trivial to us huamns, for an NPC in a game it is a difficult task, and even more difficult if the world can be changed arbitrarily.

 

Example: When you step through a door and go a step sideways, suddenly a wall is in the way of the NPC and it can't go straight anymore and a complicated path finding routine is part of the AI so it still finds a way to get to you. Even worse, you gut close the door you stepped through. And that AI is somewhat easier for flying objects, that is why TFP makes a drone as a companion to the player and not a dog.

 

So yes, the AI I and some others are talking about is necessary, the AI you are talking about is not necessary.

 

PS: I made a slip-of-tongue in my previous post and said "zombie" where I meant "NPC". Corrected that now.

 

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I disagree again ... The magnet routine should work this way : if not at the limit range routine , the NPCs will stop and not try to recover your path = to NO AI . It's up to the player, going back to put the lost NPCs magnet range in track again. It's an AUTO stop magnet range idea ! Example : if a player closes a door and NPCs had not passed it, it will not pass it  until the player opens the door, or there is a nearby free passage within the magnet range. If not, the NPC will stay there until he is outside the magnet range. And for that I keep saying , it needs a basic routine, not an advanced AI ! Within magnet range they follow u, if not they stop and never cross/walkthrough closed obstacles. Get it ?? Hope so. Cheers !!!

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6 hours ago, MIOLOmole said:

U r mixing SIDE MISSIONS idea with CAMPAIGN ! Picking up your words " my idea doesn´t care " if the NPC mayor, familiy, pets, will not take part in the game plot. Simple basic rescue missions. Besides the maths of survival rewards, is the FUN of trying to get the NPCs all alive to the trade post. Again, no AI required for NPCs on side missions. Besides, the idea is to pick up a group of NPCs in the same place, not at different random locations "once" the mission starts. Different random locations r for each new mission, not for where the NPCs are located separately. U don´t choose which NPCs to save. Your only maths will be to save the many as u can. Since it's not CAMPAING = NO AI required ! Final ! If u insist in that, u r not adressing my idea ever. Fear screams for each of those NPCs it´s not AI ! They don´t need to shoot or fight back, just magnet range run with you ! U r the only AI ! Simple as that ! Like it or not, as usual, is only your opinion, and with that i can't argue. It's not that i'm searching for your approval for whatever ... If PIMPs do that, I will return to 7D2D, if not, trillion games to play ... just my opinion, just my choice. Cheers !!!

there will be story mode someday but this will be something diffrent that "normal" mode.  For most people this is not "fun" i remember often when in burger town survivors died in studid way because they sometimes just stay in place. Ai is always required in modern games. for example - i played in old ww2 game and how it's work? germans was going from point A to point B if they saw you they shot if you hide behind wall they stay there for eternity.  and fear screams are AI - game decide like if zombie is 10 block away then scream . if 11 block not.  honestly do you know anything about game developing or not?  even this "magnet range" run need good AI or your npc will stuck on walls stones or cars.  This is annoying as hell . i had this sitation in a lof of games for example cod - npc stuck somewhere = you need to load checkpoint. so i'm happy without it

1 hour ago, MIOLOmole said:

I disagree again ... The magnet routine should work this way : if not at the limit range routine , the NPCs will stop and not try to recover your path = to NO AI . It's up to the player, going back to put the lost NPCs magnet range in track again. It's an AUTO stop magnet range idea ! Example : if a player closes a door and NPCs had not passed it, it will not pass it  until the player opens the door, or there is a nearby free passage within the magnet range. If not, the NPC will stay there until he is outside the magnet range. And for that I keep saying , it needs a basic routine, not an advanced AI ! Within magnet range they follow u, if not they stop and never cross/walkthrough closed obstacles. Get it ?? Hope so. Cheers !!!

this is AI - and need to be good in sandbox game. even stupid stone on their track can make them bug. You know how much TFP spend time to make zombie good? a lot and honestly this is rly hard to make this good because in 10 sitations can works good but in 1 they can do something stupid and  people will compain about bad AI. TFP is not Activision so they don't have almost endless time and money to do something like that

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2 hours ago, meganoth said:

When we are talking about AI, we are talking about different things here. So let me define first what AI technically means in a game:

 

The AI of an NPC does not only control the NPCs attack or how he talks to you. It also controls in detail which path it follows if it has to follow you. This may seem trivial to us huamns, for an NPC in a game it is a difficult task, and even more difficult if the world can be changed arbitrarily.

 

Example: When you step through a door and go a step sideways, suddenly a wall is in the way of the NPC and it can't go straight anymore and a complicated path finding routine is part of the AI so it still finds a way to get to you. Even worse, you gut close the door you stepped through. And that AI is somewhat easier for flying objects, that is why TFP makes a drone as a companion to the player and not a dog.

 

So yes, the AI I and some others are talking about is necessary, the AI you are talking about is not necessary.

 

PS: I made a slip-of-tongue in my previous post and said "zombie" where I meant "NPC". Corrected that now.

 

@meganoth honestly you can't convice him. he probably just playing games and know too little about game developing. honestly i want i lot in 7dtd but i know a lot of thing can't works good like good "decay" of corpses instead disappairing

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2 hours ago, MIOLOmole said:

I disagree again ... The magnet routine should work this way : if not at the limit range routine , the NPCs will stop and not try to recover your path = to NO AI . It's up to the player, going back to put the lost NPCs magnet range in track again. It's an AUTO stop magnet range idea ! Example : if a player closes a door and NPCs had not passed it, it will not pass it  until the player opens the door, or there is a nearby free passage within the magnet range. If not, the NPC will stay there until he is outside the magnet range. And for that I keep saying , it needs a basic routine, not an advanced AI ! Within magnet range they follow u, if not they stop and never cross/walkthrough closed obstacles. Get it ?? Hope so. Cheers !!!

The first person who ever mentioned an advanced AI was you just now. I was simply talking about a "good" AI, i.e. an AI that handles the problems in a way that TFP is satisfied with its quality.

 

And when you say "it will not pass it until ... or there is a nearby free passage within the magnet range" that is exactly what I was talking about. To find and walk to that nearby free passage the NPC needs AI, that is what I was talking about. Zombies can do that but they also often seem to ignore the easy way i.e. 1 out of 5 zombies will still bash on a wall even though an open doorway is directly a block to the side.

 

Yes, TFP could just accept that NPCs simply hang in difficult terrain. But last time this topic came up they seemed not sure the current AI was good enough for what they had in mind. As I initially said, this may change once bandits make an appearance and if they work really well (NPCs were already in the game once but they did not meet TFPs quality standards, by the way). But when that happens TFP will already be near the finish line to release the game and they might not want to add another feature but instead declare feature freeze and turn to final bug fixing and balancing.

 

On the other hand I'm pretty sure that modders will add escort missions even if TFP passes on that.

 

Edited by meganoth (see edit history)
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4 hours ago, katarynna said:

so every time there is a car or tree or building in the way of the npc, you would have to go back and slowly drag them around it? sounds tedious, boring, and frustrating. Much like any escort quest ever.

ya ... if so, point them the way to go, and just sit back watching all that AI . What's more boring ?

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2 hours ago, meganoth said:

The first person who ever mentioned an advanced AI was you just now. I was simply talking about a "good" AI, i.e. an AI that handles the problems in a way that TFP is satisfied with its quality.

 

And when you say "it will not pass it until ... or there is a nearby free passage within the magnet range" that is exactly what I was talking about. To find and walk to that nearby free passage the NPC needs AI, that is what I was talking about. Zombies can do that but they also often seem to ignore the easy way i.e. 1 out of 5 zombies will still bash on a wall even though an open doorway is directly a block to the side.

 

Yes, TFP could just accept that NPCs simply hang in difficult terrain. But last time this topic came up they seemed not sure the current AI was good enough for what they had in mind. As I initially said, this may change once bandits make an appearance and if they work really well (NPCs were already in the game once but they did not meet TFPs quality standards, by the way). But when that happens TFP will already be near the finish line to release the game and they might not want to add another feature but instead declare feature freeze and turn to final bug fixing and balancing.

 

On the other hand I'm pretty sure that modders will add escort missions even if TFP passes on that.

 

Advanced , good, special, ... it's a correct word the main problem ?? The all idea is to go basic around the subject, to be a lot easier to convince PIMPs to add that. Who cares if NPCs do a lap dance passing an obstacle ?? do it the simple way possible ... Stuck in ground rocks ?! LOL ... that´s an awful routine. U r trying to discard the idea at all costs. And to that, I can´t argue ! Cheers.

 

3 hours ago, Matt115 said:

@meganoth honestly you can't convice him. he probably just playing games and know too little about game developing. honestly i want i lot in 7dtd but i know a lot of thing can't works good like good "decay" of corpses instead disappairing

and know too little about game developing ... so u r an expert ??!! congrats ... do the job pls !!! Thx ! Cheers.

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41 minutes ago, MIOLOmole said:

Advanced , good, special, ... it's a correct word the main problem ?? The all idea is to go basic around the subject, to be a lot easier to convince PIMPs to add that. Who cares if NPCs do a lap dance passing an obstacle ?? do it the simple way possible ... Stuck in ground rocks ?! LOL ... that´s an awful routine. U r trying to discard the idea at all costs. And to that, I can´t argue ! Cheers.

 

Well, I don't like my words twisted so that they seem to say something different. "advanced" sounds, well, pretty advanced 😁

 

I don't have the power to discard any idea. That idea was proposed multiple times already, just like dozens of other common ideas, and the developers definitely know about that idea, probably had that idea years before it was ever posted in the forum. I'm just telling you that it came up in conversations and at least the last times the said something like "there were no plans at the moment" and I told you some of the reasons why.

 

What I say here has not the slightest effect on anything the devs will do. I'm not a gatekeeper

 

41 minutes ago, MIOLOmole said:

 

and know too little about game developing ... so u r an expert ??!! congrats ... do the job pls !!! Thx ! Cheers.

 

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37 minutes ago, MIOLOmole said:

Advanced , good, special, ... it's a correct word the main problem ?? The all idea is to go basic around the subject, to be a lot easier to convince PIMPs to add that. Who cares if NPCs do a lap dance passing an obstacle ?? do it the simple way possible ... Stuck in ground rocks ?! LOL ... that´s an awful routine. U r trying to discard the idea at all costs. And to that, I can´t argue ! Cheers.

 

and know too little about game developing ... so u r an expert ??!! congrats ... do the job pls !!! Thx ! Cheers.

honestly , if  you want convice someone about something you need give a logical solutionhow to do something. in cod you have to escort hover which ride on fixed path - it can't change  course of ride. but even this create a lot bugs. Even better for acti - cod have static maps.

so in 7dtd can't be make  "routine" because map in generated radomly and players can infuenlce on it. so it will be hell for them.  

"do the job" em XD? you know there is a lot ot types in game studio? programers, guys who make characters models, props etc. sometimes even 1 character model need 2 week to be one. so "do the job" is not so easy. this something like you want from vocantional school teacher to make space rocket.  You know even something diagonal jump was something impossible for long time in games?

 

 

Your idea can be implemented but it need changes.  i will give you how could it work in way possible for TFP to considered.

You take quest. 

go to marker - it will make drone respawns ( drones are flying + there is drone model created ). it will create "zone " similiar to treasue hunt hint were is treasure.  you must stay in this zone when drone moves. it moves only if player is inside. zombie is respawning and going to attack you when you get into trader's gate drone will disappairing and you have complited quest? @meganoth do you agrea this idea is more realistic that his idea?

 

 

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41 minutes ago, Matt115 said:

honestly , if  you want convice someone about something you need give a logical solutionhow to do something. in cod you have to escort hover which ride on fixed path - it can't change  course of ride. but even this create a lot bugs. Even better for acti - cod have static maps.

so in 7dtd can't be make  "routine" because map in generated radomly and players can infuenlce on it. so it will be hell for them.  

"do the job" em XD? you know there is a lot ot types in game studio? programers, guys who make characters models, props etc. sometimes even 1 character model need 2 week to be one. so "do the job" is not so easy. this something like you want from vocantional school teacher to make space rocket.  You know even something diagonal jump was something impossible for long time in games?

 

 

Your idea can be implemented but it need changes.  i will give you how could it work in way possible for TFP to considered.

You take quest. 

go to marker - it will make drone respawns ( drones are flying + there is drone model created ). it will create "zone " similiar to treasue hunt hint were is treasure.  you must stay in this zone when drone moves. it moves only if player is inside. zombie is respawning and going to attack you when you get into trader's gate drone will disappairing and you have complited quest? @meganoth do you agrea this idea is more realistic that his idea?

 

 

 

I'm not sure. Your idea seems to include that the drone or NPC is the one dictating the path. But in RWG there could be arbitrarily big objects in the way that could prevent the drone/NPC from finding a path.

 

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Actually meganoth was not arguing against it.

 

First, he pointed out at the beginning was that TFP are working on introducing bandits prior to going Gold.  A lot of what you are thinking of would be tied into that project as the bandits themselves will require AI to operate well in the environment of 7D2D.  So TFP are already busy on working on an AI for them.

 

Second, any AI needs to take into account the world that they are in.  They need to react to threats around them and to traverse an environment that can change (if you rescue the AI, do you want them to go the blocked door and just wait there until you clear it or go through the hole you created in the wall to get to them).  A simple magnet pull AI would not suffice.  If there is a deep hole between you and the NPC, the NPC will simply fall into the hole.  If there is a threat nearby (Zs), you don't want the NPC to just stand there and take hits.  You want them to react to the world around them, not just become Simon from Neebs Gaming.  Now, we are not saying that they have to be advanced AI where they need to act like they are human; but nobody wants to escort / rescue a Simon; and we have all seen bad NPC behavior in past games where it frustrated the player (aka Fallout 4 is a great example).

 

Third, TFP already have a list of things they want to get done before going Gold; and they don't want to drag out the Alpha development even more adding more and more content in the game.  While they will add some things in as they finish up their big ticket items, this might be one of those things that a modder would add later on once TFP have the basic elements added to the game (bandit models, bandit AI, drone AI).

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