Underground bases - what's the status of making them vulnerable to zombies?

[Roland]

I'm curious about those of you saying they want the underground to be dangerous for yourselves. What are you doing that makes it not dangerous?

 

Keeping an eye out for falling gravel. done.

 

....you're still filling in the tunnel behind you to keep them out.

 

Is this a thing? I've never backfilled an access tunnel and never even considered it until you just mentioned it. I've never come across anyone that I know of who does that either. But its not just zombies. More things like the falling gravel to spice things up a bit is what I'm talking about. A buried POI, open caverns, water, lava, natural gas-- stuff underground that breaks up the monotony and absolute certainty we have now that digging a vertical shaft is 100% safe.

 

I also want at least one special type of zombie that can hit blocks above the head and below the feet but its not just that.

[Kurogo]

Keeping an eye out for falling gravel. done.

 

 

 

Is this a thing? I've never backfilled an access tunnel and never even considered it until you just mentioned it. I've never come across anyone that I know of who does that either. But its not just zombies. More things like the falling gravel to spice things up a bit is what I'm talking about. A buried POI, open caverns, water, lava, natural gas-- stuff underground that breaks up the monotony and absolute certainty we have now that digging a vertical shaft is 100% safe.

 

I also want at least one special type of zombie that can hit blocks above the head and below the feet but its not just that.

 

But even then, digging a vertical shaft isn't 100% safe unless you put a top on it. The underground doesn't make itself zombie-safe, we do.

 

But I'm all for underground poi's and stuff. Those might be neat to find.

[Roland]

But even then, digging a vertical shaft isn't 100% safe unless you put a top on it. The underground doesn't make itself zombie-safe, we do.

 

But I'm all for underground poi's and stuff. Those might be neat to find.

 

I meant a vertical shaft as in digging right below your feet all the way down instead of at an angle. You never dig straight down in Minecraft because you could fall into a cavern and die from a 30 block drop or even worse...lava. In this game you can dig straight down with impunity.

[Kurogo]

I meant a vertical shaft as in digging right below your feet all the way down instead of at an angle. You never dig straight down in Minecraft because you could fall into a cavern and die from a 30 block drop or even worse...lava. In this game you can dig straight down with impunity.

 

If I understand you correctly, then it's more that you want the digging itself to be the danger, as opposed to simply being underground? That I could agree with.

[OzHawkeye]

I'm curious about those of you saying they want the underground to be dangerous for yourselves. What are you doing that makes it not dangerous?

 

Simply relocating the entrance would fix that. Build your base five blocks underground, and build a long tunnel leading to an entrance say 50 blocks away. Zombies spawn overhead because that's where your heat generating machines are, but the entrance being 50 blocks away never gets touched.

 

Granted, full path sensing on the zombies may yet fix that, but I do agree with those that say building underground is too easy for the protection it offers, I'm just not sure digging zombies is the answer to that though.

[Kurogo]

Simply relocating the entrance would fix that. Build your base five blocks underground, and build a long tunnel leading to an entrance say 50 blocks away. Zombies spawn overhead because that's where your heat generating machines are, but the entrance being 50 blocks away never gets touched.

 

Granted, full path sensing on the zombies may yet fix that, but I do agree with those that say building underground is too easy for the protection it offers, I'm just not sure digging zombies is the answer to that though.

 

But again, that's an action chosen by the player. The only thing I can see that needs adjusting, maybe, is allowing zombies to dig beneath themselves. However, I see digging 50 block entry tunnels as a sign of players actively avoiding the zombies rather than a need to have them spawning from the rocks. The solution to making living underground more dangerous in this example is pretty easy: don't dig to avoid the zombies.

[themirror]

Yes, because you claim something about my motivation (i.e. that I want to influence your playing). And I know a lot more about my motivation than you. Not everything, there is still the subconsciousness, but definitely more than you.

 

So, the game devs must eliminate the moles based on your "motivation", that's makes sense (or maybe not).

If your motivation tells you to fight the horde like me, let it be... if the other players want to hide, let them hide. It's pointless try to force ppl to play as you do, by the way it isn't an argument at all.

[OzHawkeye]

But again, that's an action chosen by the player. The only thing I can see that needs adjusting, maybe, is allowing zombies to dig beneath themselves. However, I see digging 50 block entry tunnels as a sign of players actively avoiding the zombies rather than a need to have them spawning from the rocks. The solution to making living underground more dangerous in this example is pretty easy: don't dig to avoid the zombies.

 

The point though that some people are trying to make is that currently underground is, more or less, "boring" because it is so risk free.

 

I'm all for a "live and let live" sort of policy, and I don't have any issue with someone who wants to build an underground base so they can skip the Horde, but I also think it would be nice to have some threat, some interest, some cost to being down there, which the game currently lacks.

[Pille]

Don't tell me how to play!

 

(...too early in the convo?)

 

No, it's never too early for a preventive strike.

[meganoth]

So, the game devs must eliminate the moles based on your "motivation", that's makes sense (or maybe not).

If your motivation tells you to fight the horde like me, let it be... if the other players want to hide, let them hide. It's pointless try to force ppl to play as you do, by the way it isn't an argument at all.

 

What? I never even remotely said this. I think there is some language barrier working here. The Tower of Babel isn't a myth it seems.

[Kurogo]

The point though that some people are trying to make is that currently underground is, more or less, "boring" because it is so risk free.

 

I'm all for a "live and let live" sort of policy, and I don't have any issue with someone who wants to build an underground base so they can skip the Horde, but I also think it would be nice to have some threat, some interest, some cost to being down there, which the game currently lacks.

 

My point though, is that it's boring because they are making the decision to avoid the zombies. Should we make teleporting zombies because a sea of log spikes makes topside boring or a wide enough moat keeps them at bay? Even despite that these are actions the player chose to do? That entrance example would be much more interesting if it was only 10 blocks deep...

[themirror]

What? I never even remotely said this. I think there is some language barrier working here. The Tower of Babel isn't a myth it seems.

 

I never suggested that you is trying to influence ppl how to play and you assume that. Babel tower really isn't a myth. Same as text interpretation.

 

So, tell me. What is the real problem about the moles? Why people is upset all the time for their way to play the game?

99% of the people complaining on this forum about the underground want a solution to take the moles out of their holes, not to add new challenges to the game on underground. They do not want challenges on underground, they want a Mole Zombie to get the mole players on 7th horde.

[meganoth]

My point though, is that it's boring because they are making the decision to avoid the zombies. Should we make teleporting zombies because a sea of log spikes makes topside boring or a wide enough moat keeps them at bay? Even despite that these are actions the player chose to do? That entrance example would be much more interesting if it was only 10 blocks deep...

 

If the game gives us easy access to a sea of log spikes, then yes, teleporting zombies might be a solution to pick up the pace in the later game. Or the game makes placing a sea of log spikes more difficult, but I don't see how this could be done in a game-compatible way.

 

I think your idea of leaving the top of mine shafts open isn't really so far fetched, I might actually do this some time. The only thing is it would be like shooting yourself in the foot because you like to be in a shooting. The game should provide the dangerous and surprising elements for the player, not the player.

 

But the best argument for having a dangerous underground in the game is that whatever is put there as danger can be easily turned off again by options (even as default) or mods. But without the ground work by TFP to add (for example) zombie moles or other dangers it is VERY difficult to impossible to add those dangers by modders alone.

[meganoth]

I never suggested that you is trying to influence ppl how to play and you assume that. Babel tower really isn't a myth. Same as text interpretation.

 

So, tell me. What is the real problem about the moles? Why people is upset all the time for their way to play the game?

99% of the people complaining on this forum about the underground want a solution to take the moles out of their holes, not to add new challenges to the game on underground. They do not want challenges on underground, they want a Mole Zombie to get the mole players on 7th horde.

 

moles == players who stay mostly underground, right? Ok, I think I understand this post of yours a lot better. You say 99% of the people discussing here want not challenges but drive other players aka moles out.

 

Well, 99% is clearly wrong, on the last page of this thread I see OzHawkeye, Roland and me on the side of wanting dangers underground and all made it clear that they are in the 1% category. You might have a hard time finding posters in the other group at all, but probably that will be players on PvP multiplayer servers who actually might have a well-founded interest in what other players ON THEIR SERVER can do. They still don't want to tell YOU how to play the game.

[Kurogo]

If the game gives us easy access to a sea of log spikes, then yes, teleporting zombies might be a solution to pick up the pace in the later game. Or the game makes placing a sea of log spikes more difficult, but I don't see how this could be done in a game-compatible way.

 

I think your idea of leaving the top of mine shafts open isn't really so far fetched, I might actually do this some time. The only thing is it would be like shooting yourself in the foot because you like to be in a shooting. The game should provide the dangerous and surprising elements for the player, not the player.

 

But the best argument for having a dangerous underground in the game is that whatever is put there as danger can be easily turned off again by options (even as default) or mods. But without the ground work by TFP to add (for example) zombie moles or other dangers it is VERY difficult to impossible to add those dangers by modders alone.

 

You don't necessarily have to leave it open. My mine entrances are usually near where I'm mining (top down on gravel and all that). When I hear zombies milling around, it's time to deal with them before they dig their way in/break the door down. It's not so much shooting myself in the foot, but I choose to not avoid the zombies, and that's the experience I get.

[meganoth]

You don't necessarily have to leave it open. My mine entrances are usually near where I'm mining (top down on gravel and all that). When I hear zombies milling around, it's time to deal with them before they dig their way in/break the door down. It's not so much shooting myself in the foot, but I choose to not avoid the zombies, and that's the experience I get.

 

Well, but that's the rub, they simply don't dig their way in. I would have to especially search for a hill and dig down from the top of it to make sure zombies could reach and surprise me there by digging.

 

In a single player game I once made a wide vertical open shaft in the wasteland instead of a one-block hole to the botttom (the latter being what we use in our co-op MP game). On a few occasions zombies would actually "rain" down on me and I had to deal with them. But it was a different sort of mining, not a maze of access tunnels that also provide a claustrophobic feel and a feeling of really being underground. Such a shaft would be horribly bad if I were looking for ore veins, I just used it to get stones for cobblestone.

As an afterthought, by leaving it open and starting horizontal tunnels from there I could look for ore veins and still get a few zombies down there, at least as long as my tunnels are not too far in. It still would feel like a special design just to invite zombies down there.

 

Back to your point: Running out of the mine to meet the zombies because you hear them above is good and well, but it isn't a danger you face underground. You go up, deal with them in open space or from the safety of your base like you do for every wandering horde. While down in the mine you still don't need to do any safety measures or look for signs of dangers.

[OzHawkeye]

Problem is, how you going to get the zombies to spawn inside a terrain block?

 

If not, then you're down to having them spawn at the nearest free block (wherever that could be!) and tunnel/dug their way there, or alternately, have them violate normal spawning rules (including the bed), to spawn inside a base or tunnel.

[Kurogo]

Well, but that's the rub, they simply don't dig their way in. I would have to especially search for a hill and dig down from the top of it to make sure zombies could reach and surprise me there by digging.

 

In a single player game I once made a wide vertical open shaft in the wasteland instead of a one-block hole to the botttom (the latter being what we use in our co-op MP game). On a few occasions zombies would actually "rain" down on me and I had to deal with them. But it was a different sort of mining, not a maze of access tunnels that also provide a claustrophobic feel and a feeling of really being underground. Such a shaft would be horribly bad if I were looking for ore veins, I just used it to get stones for cobblestone.

As an afterthought, by leaving it open and starting horizontal tunnels from there I could look for ore veins and still get a few zombies down there, at least as long as my tunnels are not too far in. It still would feel like a special design just to invite zombies down there.

 

Back to your point: Running out of the mine to meet the zombies because you hear them above is good and well, but it isn't a danger you face underground. You go up, deal with them in open space or from the safety of your base like you do for every wandering horde. While down in the mine you still don't need to do any safety measures or look for signs of dangers.

 

That's what I'm saying is the danger. They can get to me and are trying to by the time I'm back topside. It's the same level of danger as any above ground base, yet noone here has tried to claim that being above ground is inherently boring and zombie free just because we can build walls. Can living underground be boring and zombie free? Yes, but only if you choose to make it that way. In that case, the drawback rightfully fits the playstyle: it's boring. Does the game need to be changed so that those who want threats when living underground can be less bored? IMO, no. Playstyles need changed, it's their own actions that lead to their boredom.

Now, what Roland was talking about is a different subject. It's not so much about the already established underground bases, but the challenges one might find while exploring (through digging) underground. Those would be an interesting addition to the game.

[canadianbluebeer]

sigh. EVERYONE missed putting in the zombie quote: "Braaaaiinnnsss"

 

No brains required really to walk up stairs. Down takes some coordination, and they fail there in amusing ways.

Doors, walls, they bash, not try to open.

Attack me? Sometimes yes, sometimes no. I shoot them in the back and they keep going THE OTHER WAY. Brainless.

Smell isn't brains. Hunger perhaps.

They do attack each other, well, hit each other.

Try to bash through the large stones on the surface instead of go around.

 

The blood moon would be more of an instinctual thing.

 

Now, if they start opening unlocked doors and the like, that would be dangerous.

(yes, there really is only so much you can do with the AI without getting bogged down in an insane number of rules,

so much that it would be a serious performance hit)

 

I don't want them tunneling straight down, but they will and do tunnel sideways. That's fine.

 

I go to bedrock only because I want the goodies. I have to protect the entrances, and watch out for where they could come in from the sides in distant locations.

 

Only 5 blocks down, well, now we're talking. They can't see you, they may be able to smell you.

Heat map is the entire chunk, which is rather large, and does indeed go to bedrock.

(which is why my forges etc are at least 3 chunks away from the entrance, and under a looted building)

 

I don't see an elegant way to have zombies dig down, unlike spider zombies (which you can ignore just by putting ledges, or even wooden arrow slits up around the roof)

 

Hmm, have them bash on a hatch the way they do a door? That might be doable. Have to do the Maxwell Smart Door System to slow them down, but that would actually make sense.

 

Ground type blocks, they ignore. Hatches, doors (man made things, but NOT concrete/steel etc blocks.) they attack.

Right now, they seem to ignore hatches.

 

Yep, that would add some danger to being underground.

 

 

"Zombies don't dig, they're brainless"

 

-Yet-

 

They know enough to not eat the other zombies.

They can walk and run around objects.

They can see.

They can smell.

They know enough to approach 'You' but not the other zombies.

They know enough to attack you.

They know how to walk up stairs/ladders.

They know enough to gather together in large groups and attack every 7 days or form wandering hordes.

They etc,.

 

So what is it? are they totally brainless? or is their intelligence on par with being 'Instinctual' like animals?

 

If like animals:

 

Animals dig to get at food.

They're capable of working in a pack.

They're capable of getting around objects that block them.

They're etc,.

 

This is not just for you @canadianbluebeer. Nor is it a rant or me being accusatory.

I've just been seeing this a lot lately..

 

Maybe the question should be "How dumb should the zombies actually be?".

I vote that they should be 'Instinctual' at the least as far as Intelligence goes, especially when it comes to the survival portion of the game.

[Guppycur]

Problem is, how you going to get the zombies to spawn inside a terrain block?

 

If not, then you're down to having them spawn at the nearest free block (wherever that could be!) and tunnel/dug their way there, or alternately, have them violate normal spawning rules (including the bed), to spawn inside a base or tunnel.

 

Some small code wizardry to change a random block and the block above it to an entity. Really, the only issue NOW, since you can just sprinkle the sleepers in the terrain (like you would gold, but at a higher spawn rate) is making the sleeper volume itself... so:

 

Either change it so that you can include prefabs in terrain (to get the volumes) or,

change it so that sleeper blocks carry a volume with them.

 

Done. You're welcome. =)

[Cadamier]

I'm here for the Rights of the Zombies!!! I'm fighting for their right to dig if they please!

 

FYI: Not all 'zombies' are the same - they're treated and given different abilities in 'every world' so 'they're' a 'generalization' and they don't have to be 'one way' for 7 Days to Die - they'll be the way TFP wants them to be.

[OzHawkeye]

Some small code wizardry to change a random block and the block above it to an entity. Really, the only issue NOW, since you can just sprinkle the sleepers in the terrain (like you would gold, but at a higher spawn rate) is making the sleeper volume itself... so:

 

Either change it so that you can include prefabs in terrain (to get the volumes) or,

change it so that sleeper blocks carry a volume with them.

 

Done. You're welcome. =)

 

This would still leave the problem of those people who make underground bases having no way to combat the spawned in zombie on the other side of the wall short of waiting for them to (eventually!) break through the wall so they could shoot them (short of using iron bars for all their "walls").

 

While I'm no great fan of underground bases per se, I think that would be a little harsh on the mole people.

[Roland]

Now, what Roland was talking about is a different subject. It's not so much about the already established underground bases, but the challenges one might find while exploring (through digging) underground. Those would be an interesting addition to the game.

 

Just to be clear I want both. I’d be satisfied with one single special zombie type that can dig because then I could mod the ability to the rest of them for my own game. Personally, I have VERY fond memories of when all zombies could dig and I liked the aesthetics of and the danger of entering Swiss cheese terrain.

[Tin]

Just to be clear I want both. I’d be satisfied with one single special zombie type that can dig because then I could mod the ability to the rest of them for my own game. Personally, I have VERY fond memories of when all zombies could dig and I liked the aesthetics of and the danger of entering Swiss cheese terrain.

 

Funny thing is, 'SOME' are acting like suggestions can't even be options anymore. Who ever said digging zeds needed to be in the default game? They could just as easily be in "Advanced Settings" or a "hard mode" setting.. But 'Some' don't even want to humor that as even being an option.

I guess only certain suggestions are allowed to be discussed..

[Roland]

Funny thing is, 'SOME' are acting like suggestions can't even be options anymore. Who ever said digging zeds needed to be in the default game? They could just as easily be in "Advanced Settings" or a "hard mode" setting.. But 'Some' don't even want to humor that as even being an option.

I guess only certain suggestions are allowed to be discussed..

 

They think we are doing a whammy on the developers. If we say it, the game WILL be changed and their playstyle forcibly removed by us, hence we must stop saying it.