Why isin't zombie rage in the options menu where feral sense is?

[Scyris]

Real question, why isin't it? Could put it under feral sense with default being on, but the user can choose to turn it off if they want, I personally feel its one of the dumbest features added to the game, same for the forward staggering zombies do which makes no damn sense. I know i'd turn it off for sure, as its a stupid cheapshot feature and nothing more. Yes, I am aware mods can disable it, but thats no reason why it cannot be a ingame toggleable option when stuff like day/night/bloodmoon zombie move speed and feral sense is. Please add it as a toggleable option instead of forcing us to use a mod to do it.

 

By rage I don't mean where they hit random blocks after fall damage, I mean the one where after you hit them they randomly start running at you at mach 2 speed just out of no where.

 

While your at it maybe add digging zombies with 3 choices as well: All, Animals Only, or None can dig.

 

 

Edited October 4 by Scyris (see edit history)

[FranticDan]

Unfortunately, rage and super rage are tied to the difficulty setting. Scavenger they are both disabled, and as the difficulty goes up, so does the % chance they rage and super rage.
I've requested this setting myself. Off, default, higher chance, always.

But instead we got a pointless quest limit option which only affects Tier 1 quests, because there's no way you're doing more than three T2's on default day length

I miss the days when we could individually set how much damage zombies do, the player deals, and how many % zombies spawn in the world.

[warmer]

Without that "feature" the AI becomes incredibly simple and predictable. I love it, it makes things way more dynamic. 

 

Why do you actually want it off? What does that do for you other than making it much easier?

[FranticDan]

48 minutes ago, warmer said:

Why do you actually want it off? What does that do for you other than making it much easier?

Well for me personally, I want it disabled in my overhaul mod, because a raging zombie would become impossible to run away from (a death sentence basically). Thankfully a modder made me a modlet to remove rage altogether. But in any other game I don't touch it

[warmer]

2 hours ago, FranticDan said:

Well for me personally, I want it disabled in my overhaul mod, because a raging zombie would become impossible to run away from (a death sentence basically). Thankfully a modder made me a modlet to remove rage altogether. But in any other game I don't touch it

I can understand that for a mod, because that is a special use case. In vanilla, I definitely think we need it. I can't stand a lot of zombie games simply because their AI is so dumb and simple. I need to feel some danger or the excitement is just gone for me.

[theFlu]

I'm also in the camp "it's fine, better with it than without it" - and I do like the game having mechanics to give some challenge. While it's not perfect, the game really lacks in ways to make the combat difficult / interesting.

 

Being bound to difficulty instead of a separate setting; I kinda prefer that too. Having everything on separate settings gives no "default style" for the game - this may be personal, but I do appreciate defined gameplay.

 

I wouldn't throw a fit over making it a setting, but I'd have trouble setting it to "something reasonable" by myself...

[Uncle Al]

4 hours ago, FranticDan said:

But instead we got a pointless quest limit option which only affects Tier 1 quests, because there's no way you're doing more than three T2's on default day length
 

I'm guessing you mostly play solo? The quest limit was introduced to balance co-op, and it's the best implementation so far, I'd say. Full sharing meant people were hitting T6 quests in less than a week, no sharing was horrible and effectively encouraged co-op players NOT to play together.

 

 

[Scyris]

12 hours ago, warmer said:

Without that "feature" the AI becomes incredibly simple and predictable. I love it, it makes things way more dynamic. 

 

Why do you actually want it off? What does that do for you other than making it much easier?

 

Mostly because its a cheapshot system for melee. Its bad enough zombies for whatever stupid reason stagger forward instead of backwards like any other game. Also, TFP has not coded the animations properly with proper stalls etc, I don't know how to explain it exactly, but zombies can attack with 0 animation and hit you during other animations, which shouldn't be possible. There are 3 times this usually happens: when they start to rage, when they do the ballarena spin after being hit, and when the stagger foward. If I am using guns I don't really care about the rage system, its only a problem with melee.

 

You see, zombies back in a16.4 couldn't attack when other animations were playing and they had to be stopped, TFP changed that and allowed them to attack while moving, but they forgot to edit the animations, so the attack cannot play during staggers and such. Which is the reason why you often get hit by a zombie without the zombie doing any attack animation whatsoever, you just take damage. The Rage system makes this issue even worse.

 

All in all though I just want more customization options, if they have zombie run speed settings and feral sense there is 0 reason why Zombie Rage cannot be on that menu too, Default, could be the difficulty chance, More would maybe double it, less, would reduce it, and then there is Always and Off.

 

I'd also like zombie digging to be on that menu with 3 settings: Off, Animals Only, All. Default would be All, just like for zombie rage would be default.

 

Also don't forget these are zombies, they aren't supposed to be smart. Mod I current play alot is called Afterlife, and it changes the Ai, to make it a bit like a16.4, as in, you can't herd the zombies to a kill box like you can in vanilla. Most vanilla bases for blood moons do not work in Afterlife, as its more closer to a16.4 where they will hit the first block they get to, so you have to defend all sides, as there is no real way to force them to follow your path to a kill box. Brought some new challenge to horde nights, especially when some of the new special zombies show up, for example, Spider zombies can climb walls again, and even have a proper climbing animation in this mod. They can also climb over the "lips" people used to use to stop them in a16.4. Afterlifes skill system is 100% learn by doing, with the magazine system thats been edited so stats do not influence what you find, but there IS a research desk so you can scrap magazines/books you do not need and recraft the material into ones you do. Even the stats are learn by doing, as you use say, Axes to log, it'll also up your exp in strgenth and other related stats. Its a long haul slow burn mod, progression is vastly slowed down, and it has multiple new gameplay systems as well.

 

8 hours ago, warmer said:

I can understand that for a mod, because that is a special use case. In vanilla, I definitely think we need it. I can't stand a lot of zombie games simply because their AI is so dumb and simple. I need to feel some danger or the excitement is just gone for me.

 

I also don't play vanilla much, vanilla is stale and hasn't gone anywhere but downhill since a16.4, I don't expect it to ever get better as TFP doesn't seem intersted in fixing the games problems. Most overhauls I play have new stuff that adds challenge that vanilla lacks.

Edited October 5 by Scyris (see edit history)

[Roland]

I file this request with the other one that zombies shouldn't be able to break wood or stone or steel. Sure. Boring game.

 

The forward stagger doesn't happen every time and it doesn't surprise me every time but it gives me a scare still every once in awhile and that makes melee more interesting.

Then again, getting hit and having overcome the setback of a critical injury makes things interesting. Should zombies be so slow and predictable and their reach so shortened that we NEVER get hit EVER? Boring game.

 

I agree with puting rage on an options setting simply so I can have the higher percentage with my lower difficulty setting of Nomad or Warrior. I like rage. I played for years without it and melee is much better with it in.

[FranticDan]

3 hours ago, Scyris said:

You see, zombies back in a16.4 couldn't attack when other animations were playing and they had to be stopped, TFP changed that and allowed them to attack while moving, but they forgot to edit the animations, so the attack cannot play during staggers and such. Which is the reason why you often get hit by a zombie without the zombie doing any attack animation whatsoever, you just take damage. 

This is why no attack animation plays

<property name="PainResistPerHit" value=".55"/> <!-- Added when hit. Caps at 3. Decay .2 per second. At 1 movement is not slowed by pain -->

When their pain resist exceeds 100%, they will shrug off any hits you deal to them, even from an SMG. The only way to stop them is to either get lucky with a ragdoll proc, or knock them down (deal half of their max health in raw dmg, which excludes DoT's), or try to not be in range, which can be difficult since they gain range when you run away from them.

[Benton]

1 minute ago, FranticDan said:

This is why no attack animation plays

<property name="PainResistPerHit" value=".55"/> <!-- Added when hit. Caps at 3. Decay .2 per second. At 1 movement is not slowed by pain -->

When their pain resist exceeds 100%, they will shrug off any hits you deal to them, even from an SMG. The only way to stop them is to either get lucky with a ragdoll proc, or knock them down (deal half of their max health in raw dmg, which excludes DoT's), or try to not be in range, which can be difficult since they gain range when you run away from them.

 

Thank you Dan for the explanation.

I always wanna punch my monitor, if i get hit out of nowhere, means without any animation from them. This is very annoying, at least for me.

[Callum123456789]

i hope pain resist can be fine tuned at some point, having zombies just attack through it and not flinching at all doesnt feel fun to go against sometimes, same with the crawling animation as it is, it's still buggy looking and leaves room for many cheap shots.

[Mister Forgash]

I will almost always argue in favor of giving the player the most tools to customize their gaming experience as possible. I will continue to ask/beg/encourage/grovel/negotiate that in difficulty settings will be revised, letting us choose some values for the mentioned rage mode, as well as zombie crit chance,  and de coupling zombie HP/Damage so that they can be controlled separately. I hope the Fun Pimps will consider making these changes.. perhaps after bandits when they'll likely have to change/review a bunch of difficulty settings anyhow.

[warmer]

13 hours ago, Scyris said:

 

Mostly because its a cheapshot system for melee.

What I hear you saying is it's too hard with it on.

If you play with the expectation that it can happen at any moment it's not an issue. For me the only time I am caught off guard is when I am getting lazy and over confident. I see this as a good reality check. Having every zombie behave predictably lessens the danger so much combat feels like a boring snooze fest. If that is what you want, turn the difficulty down to the lowest setting.

[Uncle Al]

10 hours ago, FranticDan said:

This is why no attack animation plays

<property name="PainResistPerHit" value=".55"/> <!-- Added when hit. Caps at 3. Decay .2 per second. At 1 movement is not slowed by pain -->

When their pain resist exceeds 100%, they will shrug off any hits you deal to them, even from an SMG. The only way to stop them is to either get lucky with a ragdoll proc, or knock them down (deal half of their max health in raw dmg, which excludes DoT's), or try to not be in range, which can be difficult since they gain range when you run away from them.

Thanks @FranticDan, that does make sense, but I don't actually know the other half of the mechanic to fully understand your answer.

 

If 'At 1 movement is not slowed by pain' then how is movement slowed by pain when PainResistPerHit is lower than 1?

 

Basically, do you, or anyone else, know the underlying mechanics of the normal 'staggering' effect of hitting a zombie?

[Scyris]

15 hours ago, FranticDan said:

This is why no attack animation plays

<property name="PainResistPerHit" value=".55"/> <!-- Added when hit. Caps at 3. Decay .2 per second. At 1 movement is not slowed by pain -->

When their pain resist exceeds 100%, they will shrug off any hits you deal to them, even from an SMG. The only way to stop them is to either get lucky with a ragdoll proc, or knock them down (deal half of their max health in raw dmg, which excludes DoT's), or try to not be in range, which can be difficult since they gain range when you run away from them.

 

I know about the pain resist, but I mean I have gotten hit by them DURING a stagger animation on them, which means the pain resist threshold was not passed yet because if it was they wouldn't have staggered in the first place.

5 hours ago, warmer said:

What I hear you saying is it's too hard with it on.

If you play with the expectation that it can happen at any moment it's not an issue. For me the only time I am caught off guard is when I am getting lazy and over confident. I see this as a good reality check. Having every zombie behave predictably lessens the danger so much combat feels like a boring snooze fest. If that is what you want, turn the difficulty down to the lowest setting.

 

Please I been playing this game sinca alpha 10.2. I never said it was too hard, I just said its a cheapshot system, that coupled with the 0 animation hits they can land on the player is a bad combo. You don't see these problems in other zombie games, as when a zombie is staggered in any other zombie game, it cannot attack till the stagger animation is finished, however in 7dtd it can attack during it with 0 animation and often does. Like I said the animations don't have proper coding or whatever to stop the zombie from attacking during animations they should not be able to attack during. It would be the same as if the player could attack at the same time while using a first aid bandage during the bandage use animation. However the player cannot attack during that animation as its coded or whatever properly to prevent the attack animation from being able to play, In fact you cannot switch items either till the animation is finished as well.

15 hours ago, Roland said:

I file this request with the other one that zombies shouldn't be able to break wood or stone or steel. Sure. Boring game.

 

The forward stagger doesn't happen every time and it doesn't surprise me every time but it gives me a scare still every once in awhile and that makes melee more interesting.

Then again, getting hit and having overcome the setback of a critical injury makes things interesting. Should zombies be so slow and predictable and their reach so shortened that we NEVER get hit EVER? Boring game.

 

I agree with puting rage on an options setting simply so I can have the higher percentage with my lower difficulty setting of Nomad or Warrior. I like rage. I played for years without it and melee is much better with it in.

 

Yeah thats why I had the option to also increase how often it happens as well as decrease or disable it in my suggestion, to cater to anyones tastes. Some people might want them to rage every single time you hit them even, this would allow this. Without needing to mess around with mods and such.

[Arez]

17 hours ago, FranticDan said:

This is why no attack animation plays

Can you post a video clip of this because I've never had a vanilla zombie cause damage without an animation.

[FranticDan]

4 hours ago, Scyris said:

I know about the pain resist, but I mean I have gotten hit by them DURING a stagger animation on them, which means the pain resist threshold was not passed yet because if it was they wouldn't have staggered in the first place.

Not true, its very possible for it to exceed 100% during another animation, I've been hit that way countless times too. Example, they could be at 90% then you hit them, which will play an animation as they were under 100% when you hit them, but now they are over 100% so they hit you regardless.

2 hours ago, Arez said:

Can you post a video clip of this because I've never had a vanilla zombie cause damage without an animation.

Bonus, got hit during their stagger forward animation

[pApA^LeGBa]

On 10/4/2024 at 6:02 PM, warmer said:

Without that "feature" the AI becomes incredibly simple and predictable. I love it, it makes things way more dynamic. 

 

Why do you actually want it off? What does that do for you other than making it much easier?

 

If you want to use the wandering hordes mod and the x4 spawning mod  for example, i would like to have rage mode disabled. Otherwise you can´t really raise the frequency and size of wandering hordes too high and i play those mods so i get them pretty often and not just a bit more than usual. 

 

I also find it stupid that a single zombie and a bit of bad luck can mess with your whole playtrough. That´s just not a fun challenge to have as it is pure RNG.

 

@FranticDan Is that modlet available anywhere?

 

@Arez The no animation happened quite a few times for me too.

Edited October 6 by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)

[Callum123456789]

yeah if you play on lower difficulties youll be ragdolling them quicker or just killing them with less hits so the animationless hit wont seem all that common but if you go against burnt zombies or play on survivalist/insane pain resist becomes a huge problem as they essentially become tanks that shrug off your blows if you try and use weapons like a knife or fists early on it can become infuriating to combat, you could make the statement why not use guns then? and to that i answer melee is fun but pain resist is completely unfair that its allowed to exceed 100%, if you ask me it should be capped at around 60% so a well timed swing from our character should stun them and prevent them from making a successful attack.

[warmer]

5 hours ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

I also find it stupid that a single zombie and a bit of bad luck can mess with your whole playtrough. That´s just not a fun challenge to have as it is pure RNG.

I see what you are saying, that applies to a mod. With a mod you can ask for anything and it's valid because you aren't trying to change the vanilla game.

I do find this line really funny personally, "I also find it stupid that a single zombie and a bit of bad luck can mess with your whole playtrough."

That is the essence of the tense anxiety of a zombie apocalypse. THAT is the reason I play this game. In zombie lore a single zombie bite ruins not only your day but your life. Making all zombies dumb with no variation to their typical behavior is incredibly BORING. Keeping all the AI predictable makes for a game you can run on auto pilot. I don't find that fun. I NEED RNG to give me anxiety and make it exciting or this game will cease to be a challenge. I rarely die before day 21 on solo. Usually my horde base has issues on day 21 as it's hard to keep up by yourself. 

How exactly does that ruin a play through? That is what I don't understand. Are people playing no hit end game runs? I don't understand the need to never have a surprise hit in combat. Don't you want a little challenge and a little unpredictable nature to the AI? I don't play games where the challenge is gone. The entire reason I play is to progress and get better. Once you have mastered a game, it ceases to be fun for me.

[Arez]

5 hours ago, Callum123456789 said:

play on survivalist/insane

I do. Maybe I haven't let them get close enough to have it happen. Though I have seen what appears to be attack animations getting interrupted by them getting hit while the attack follows through anyway.

 

I'll open up unity and see what all the attack animations look like.

[Uncle Al]

55 minutes ago, warmer said:

I see what you are saying, that applies to a mod. With a mod you can ask for anything and it's valid because you aren't trying to change the vanilla game.

I do find this line really funny personally, "I also find it stupid that a single zombie and a bit of bad luck can mess with your whole playtrough."

That is the essence of the tense anxiety of a zombie apocalypse. THAT is the reason I play this game. In zombie lore a single zombie bite ruins not only your day but your life. Making all zombies dumb with no variation to their typical behavior is incredibly BORING. Keeping all the AI predictable makes for a game you can run on auto pilot. I don't find that fun. I NEED RNG to give me anxiety and make it exciting or this game will cease to be a challenge. I rarely die before day 21 on solo. Usually my horde base has issues on day 21 as it's hard to keep up by yourself. 

How exactly does that ruin a play through? That is what I don't understand. Are people playing no hit end game runs? I don't understand the need to never have a surprise hit in combat. Don't you want a little challenge and a little unpredictable nature to the AI? I don't play games where the challenge is gone. The entire reason I play is to progress and get better. Once you have mastered a game, it ceases to be fun for me.

I feel pretty much the same way. That said, I'm totally fine with rage, because it seems to follow 'rules' and my choices and actions influence how it affects me. Frequently in earlyish game I'll be meleeing, realise in the nick of time that a zombie's gone rage mode, and swap from melee to a double barrel shotgun and blow its head off. It feels great. A sudden new threat appeared and if I take appropriate action fast enough, I can neutralise it.

 

The staggering forward and piroutte hits just annoy me though. They feel like a ludicrous addition just because 'make melee combat always involve some attrition' was a design goal.

 

The capoeira style 'drop and instantly do a long range attack' is terrible too. I was under the impression that's not intended for final game, and just happens because the transition animations between a zombie standing and crouching haven't been put it yet. I really hope that's still the case. Sure, you can learn never to fight in doorways or attics, especially against Moe because he loves to crouch at the slightest hint of a low ceiling, but it just feels 'off'.

[FranticDan]

8 hours ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

 Is that modlet available anywhere?

I'm assuming you mean the HUD? You can get it from the dishong tower challenge

[pApA^LeGBa]

15 hours ago, FranticDan said:

I'm assuming you mean the HUD? You can get it from the dishong tower challenge

 

No the remove rage mode one.

 

@warmer How it can ruin a playtrough? Permadeath, a bit of bad luck and rng hitting you with rage mode at the worst time possible.

 

And as you can see i like a lot of zombies. This is the thing that i don´t like the most about the game. The lack of zombies. A single zombie shouldn´t be a threat they should be dangerous due to their numbers. 

 

And ofc that RNG is a factor here. I generally dislike RNG based challenges. It´s frustrating to die when you did everything right but RNG said nope.

Edited October 7 by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)